Dumbass Fundies

Admiral Johnason · Post by **Admiral Johnason** » 2003-05-13 06:12pm

The other day, a friend of mine said I don't believe in God because I believe in evolution. His arguement was based on how I don't believe in the Creation of God (he was so stupid that he forgot that it is correctly called God's Creation and made himself look like an idiot.) I beat him at his own game by saying tht because he isn't Jewish, that he doesn't believe in some parts of the first five books and also fell into the same catergory. It took another ten minutes to get him to back off. How dare he. Tell you the truth, it is quite sad if a person doesn't even know their own religion.

Ancalagon · Post by **Ancalagon** » 2003-05-13 06:16pm

Admiral Johnason wrote:The other day, a friend of mine said I don't believe in God because I believe in evolution. His arguement was based on how I don't believe in the Creation of God (he was so stupid that he forgot that it is correctly called God's Creation and made himself look like an idiot.) I beat him at his own game by saying tht because he isn't Jewish, that he doesn't believe in some parts of the first five books and also fell into the same catergory. It took another ten minutes to get him to back off. How dare he. Tell you the truth, it is quite sad if a person doesn't even know their own religion.

point out to him that the bible is full of figurative language... the creation myth and much of the stories in the OT fit into that catagory... if he still doesn't understand ask him if he believes that X has four legs, a wool coat and says BAAAAA......

Superman · Post by **Superman** » 2003-05-13 06:17pm

Right. You can also believe in evolution AND a god. The two are not mutually exclusive (despite the fact that fundies want you to think they are).

Atheism DOES NOT equal atheism.

Superman · Post by **Superman** » 2003-05-13 06:17pm

Right. You can also believe in evolution AND a god. The two are not mutually exclusive (despite the fact that fundies want you to think they are).

Evolution DOES NOT equal atheism. Normal Christians have no problem with evolution.

Admiral Johnason · Post by **Admiral Johnason** » 2003-05-13 06:17pm

Ancalagon wrote:
Admiral Johnason wrote:The other day, a friend of mine said I don't believe in God because I believe in evolution. His arguement was based on how I don't believe in the Creation of God (he was so stupid that he forgot that it is correctly called God's Creation and made himself look like an idiot.) I beat him at his own game by saying tht because he isn't Jewish, that he doesn't believe in some parts of the first five books and also fell into the same catergory. It took another ten minutes to get him to back off. How dare he. Tell you the truth, it is quite sad if a person doesn't even know their own religion.
point out to him that the bible is full of figurative language... the creation myth and much of the stories in the OT fit into that catagory... if he still doesn't understand ask him if he believes that X has four legs, a wool coat and says BAAAAA......

I did many times.

Admiral Johnason · Post by **Admiral Johnason** » 2003-05-13 06:19pm

Superman wrote:Right. You can also believe in evolution AND a god. The two are not mutually exclusive (despite the fact that fundies want you to think they are).

Atheism DOES NOT equal atheism.

I agree, but I still will remain a Christian.

I live in the middle of an area with more die hard Republican fundies than anywhere else on Earth.

Ancalagon · Post by **Ancalagon** » 2003-05-13 06:22pm

Admiral Johnason wrote:
Superman wrote:Right. You can also believe in evolution AND a god. The two are not mutually exclusive (despite the fact that fundies want you to think they are).

Atheism DOES NOT equal atheism.
I agree, but I still will remain a Christian.

I live in the middle of an area with more die hard Republican fundies than anywhere else on Earth.

I don't know.... i might have you beat....

although i was pleasently surprised a few weeks ago when WEAR did a telephone/internet poll and 83% of those who responded believed the government should say out of what goes on in the bedroom... Not what i expected from N. Fl and S. Al... I guess our conservative nature overrode the republican influence....

Superman · Post by **Superman** » 2003-05-13 06:23pm

Admiral, you CAN be a Christian and acknowledge evolution! That is what I am trying to tell you.

Just because you know evolution is true does not mean you have to stop being a Christian! Most Christians have no problem with evolution; it's just the fundies.

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2003-05-13 09:46pm

Give him the Mark 16:18 challange!

GC · Post by GC » 2003-05-13 09:54pm

Submitted for your consideration:

Taken alone, it IS possible to dismiss Genesis as figurative and accept evolution, BUT, one also has to answer this:

The NT takes Genesis lierally. Christ spoke of Adam and Eve as real people (eould he have invoked fiction for a reference Wouldn't he have known it wan't true? If he didn't want to confuse them yet wanted to speak the truth he could have said "In the story of Adam..." or some such.

Beyond that, Paul built the entire structure of salvation on the Genesis story. Large sections of the book of Romans are predicated on the equation:

By one man- Adam - sin entered the world, and by sin death.
By one man - Christ - sin was rekoned with and life was restored.

Without a perfectly created man who had the oppertunity to stay perfect or fall into sin, the entire structure of Christianity falls apart.

If there was millions of years of living and dying before the first true human, then many of the NT assertions simply cannot hold including things said by Christ himself.

You have to explain away far more than the first thre Chapters of Genesis to accept evolution.

If evolution is true, in regards to the origin of MAN, at the very least, then the NT contains many outright falsehoods and the Christian religion cannot be trusted.
Secular evolutionist are well aware of this and comment on it from time to time.

If you want to be a Christian and an evolutionist you have far more rationalizing to do then just dismissing Genesis.

NapoleonGH · Post by **NapoleonGH** » 2003-05-13 10:08pm

GC, considering the fact that the vast majority of christians accept science as describing the real world, and are still christians, obviously you can easily be both. No you wouldnt be the type to take the bible literally in that case, but only a moron would in the face of the insurmountable evidence of its factual inaccuracy in many key parts. Most people are willing to admit that the bible is a book, writen by man at a time when these things were not understood and that its statements as far as temporal things, creation, the flood, and the like, are wrong and innacurate, but it is the spiritual message that matters.

EvilGrey · Post by **EvilGrey** » 2003-05-13 10:12pm

GC wrote:Without a perfectly created man who had the oppertunity to stay perfect or fall into sin, the entire structure of Christianity falls apart.

The quintessence of the message is that all who disregard the absolute principle which sustains all existence are doomed to perish.

This message is universal in many religions: Christianity, Taoism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, and even the cult of Islam.

NapoleonGH · Post by **NapoleonGH** » 2003-05-13 10:23pm

"cult of islam" im sorry but islam is JUST as valid a religion as christianity, do you reject it simply because it came about a few centuries after your belief system? Or perhaps because it is an evolutionary step from your religion, and you dont like the idea of someone trying to improve the system? Seriously any religious person cannot claim any religion is any less valid as a religion than any other. You may say it is wrong and you dont believe it, but that doesnt negate the fact that it is a religion, just a wrong religion in your case.

EvilGrey · Post by **EvilGrey** » 2003-05-13 10:26pm

NapoleonGH wrote:"cult of islam" im sorry but islam is JUST as valid a religion as christianity, do you reject it simply because it came about a few centuries after your belief system? Or perhaps because it is an evolutionary step from your religion, and you dont like the idea of someone trying to improve the system? Seriously any religious person cannot claim any religion is any less valid as a religion than any other. You may say it is wrong and you dont believe it, but that doesnt negate the fact that it is a religion, just a wrong religion in your case.

It is a religion, just not a very good one and not worth following.

God Emperor · Post by **God Emperor** » 2003-05-13 10:27pm

Well, actually all of the religions evilgrey said are cults, it just depends on your defention.

NapoleonGH · Post by **NapoleonGH** » 2003-05-13 10:28pm

neither is christianity, or jewdism, or any religion with two exceptions

The worship of the proper and true roman gods.

Buddhism which doesnt create false gods like the rest of your religions.

It is now time for a Mel Brooks quote.

"Christians are SO poor, that they only have 1 god"

EvilGrey · Post by **EvilGrey** » 2003-05-13 10:33pm

NapoleonGH wrote:neither is christianity, or jewdism, or any religion with two exceptions

The worship of the proper and true roman gods.

Buddhism which doesnt create false gods like the rest of your religions.

It is now time for a Mel Brooks quote.

"Christians are SO poor, that they only have 1 god"

It is the message that matters, not how God is perceived by different men of different cultures.

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2003-05-13 10:37pm

EvilGrey wrote:It is a religion, just not a very good one and not worth following.

I like this guy. Can you possibly go over to Saudi and bring this truth to those bunch of sand monkeys?

NapoleonGH · Post by **NapoleonGH** » 2003-05-13 10:37pm

Ok fine lets look at the message:

Christianity:

1. Do what I say is the moral thing, not becuase you genuinely think it is the right thing to do, but because ill smite your ass and give you eternal punishment if you dont.

Ohh yes a great message there.

2. All people who dont believe are crappy and should be made to believe, you should destroy their altars and religious icons. (says to do this in the bible to all people with a different belief structure)

another GREAT message for christians.

3. If someone doesnt believe, we shouldnt help them (jesus does this, christians believe in emulating jesus, thus they to think this is a good idea)

So basically the message of christianity is to rather than being genuinely moral, only act moral out of fear, and if someone doesnt believe not only will god punish them but that somoene as a good christian should destroy their places of worship, refuse them medical care, and preach to them every waking moment trying to get them to believe. Ohh yes an excelent message.

EvilGrey · Post by **EvilGrey** » 2003-05-13 10:45pm

NapoleonGH wrote:1. Do what I say is the moral thing, not becuase you genuinely think it is the right thing to do, but because ill smite your ass and give you eternal punishment if you dont.

Firstly, what God ordains as right and wrong are inherently right or wrong. You cannot decide for yourself something is right or wrong.

Secondly, God does nothing to you. I think the Tao te Ching says it best about Tao being happy to embrace those who embrace Tao, and just as happy to abandon those who abandon Tao. You have the power to make your destiny.

Ohh yes a great message there.

Yes it is.

2. All people who dont believe are crappy and should be made to believe, you should destroy their altars and religious icons. (says to do this in the bible to all people with a different belief structure)

Strawman.

3. If someone doesnt believe, we shouldnt help them (jesus does this, christians believe in emulating jesus, thus they to think this is a good idea)

Jesus says set an example and hope they, the nonbelievers, will follow you.

So basically the message of christianity is to rather than being genuinely moral, only act moral out of fear, and if someone doesnt believe not only will god punish them but that somoene as a good christian should destroy their places of worship, refuse them medical care, and preach to them every waking moment trying to get them to believe. Ohh yes an excelent message.

Another strawman.

One who submits to God-ordained morality is genuinely moral; all others are not.

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2003-05-13 10:59pm

MARK 16:18 Challenge!
MARK 16:18 Challenge!
MARK 16:18 Challenge!

NapoleonGH · Post by **NapoleonGH** » 2003-05-13 11:06pm

No evilgrey, my point number two came RIGHT from the bible. Your little book tells believers to attack and destroy the alters and places of worship for people who have a different belief system. READ the book, and actually learn what your religion believes in.

2. what I was saying about morality in my first point is not whether god has the power to say whether somethign is right or wrong, perhaps you should re-read what i said. What i said was that you are THREATENED into behaving the way god wants you to, and thus you behave in a "moral way" from the subjective christian pov at least, because of fear, rather than actually behaving morally becuase it is the right thing to do. IF this wasnt the case, there would be no hell, and there would never have been those fire and brimstone preachers.

3. Jesus set the example of refusing to give medical treatment to non-believers, thus christians shouldnt give medical treatment to non-believers if you follow Jesus's example. Ohh yes this is a great religion now isnt it, you dont believe in it, not only will you suffer for an eternity, BUT you get two for the price of one, they make you suffer on earth too by not giving you medical attention. Great and moral religion...

GC · Post by GC » 2003-05-13 11:19pm

NapoleonGH wrote:Ok fine lets look at the message:

Christianity:

1. Do what I say is the moral thing, not becuase you genuinely think it is the right thing to do, but because ill smite your ass and give you eternal punishment if you dont.

Ohh yes a great message there.

2. All people who dont believe are crappy and should be made to believe, you should destroy their altars and religious icons. (says to do this in the bible to all people with a different belief structure)

another GREAT message for christians.

3. If someone doesnt believe, we shouldnt help them (jesus does this, christians believe in emulating jesus, thus they to think this is a good idea)

So basically the message of christianity is to rather than being genuinely moral, only act moral out of fear, and if someone doesnt believe not only will god punish them but that somoene as a good christian should destroy their places of worship, refuse them medical care, and preach to them every waking moment trying to get them to believe. Ohh yes an excelent message.

Either you are being facesious, are engaging in hyporbole, or you have an incredibly shallow understanding of Christianity.

I suspect the latter since such seems to be a common occurance on internet BBS.

I could give you a much closer idea, but I suspect that, if you are like most posters I've encountered you will rather get into a spiting match as hear me out.

To your specific points above, I'd like to point out that you have a 180 degree oppisite understanding from the truth.

You say God ask for one to "act moral without actually being so, yet repeatedly in the Bible he publicly forgives those who are blatantly immoral and repeatedly he condems those who's morality is onlly external. In fact, that is one of the most often found themes in Scripture, both old and new test. God says over and over again words to the efect of "Oh Sure! Yu ACT like y9u follow me but I see your heart and it is wicked and I am not pleased"

You say those who don't "act moral" are condemened, yet th entire message of the NT is that one must surrender the idea that ANY ACT can earn favor with God. to the contrary, the message of the NT is that the price of admission to God's presence is the abject surrender of the prideful notion that you can DO anything to get there.

"For ye are saved by grace (unmerited favor) through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, NOT OF WORKS LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST."

The prideful process of saying "Because I did/do X therefore I'm right with God" is EXACTLY the WRONG way to get right with him.

You're point about being made to believe violently is inacurate in several ways:
1. the Jews were not out to convert their opponents by the sword, God had decided they had crossed the line. They (the Jews) were an instriment of punishment. Oh, and about being crappy...I'd presume you would agree that child sacrifice would put you in that camp.

2. It was Jews under the law, not Christinas under grace who were involved in these battles.

3. It does not say that to "all people" anywhere, and it does not say that to Christians at all.

You say "if someone doesn't believe, you shouldn't help them" is in the Bible.
Where?
If I may be forgiven for sounding like one of the home crowd - prove it.

What it ACTUALLY says is exactly the opisite "By this will all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one for another"..."Do good to all men"...and dozens of others.
Were all those missionaries killed in the Middle East where they had been providing medical care to Muslims for DECADES refusing them health care?
Are you saying these folks were heritical in their actions?

Really, I'd expect more than this sort of inacurate trite stereotypes from one who complained about someone elses comments about Islam.

Admiral Johnason · Post by **Admiral Johnason** » 2003-05-13 11:24pm

Did you just skip Revelations and the rest of the NT after Acts?

NapoleonGH · Post by **NapoleonGH** » 2003-05-13 11:45pm

See, GC, your delinating between jews and christians ASSUMES that jesus negates the Old Testament, when he himself is credited repeatedly with stating flat out that he has no intention of changing a single part of the old testament and that all people are still bound to follow it, all of it.

also, no im saying that people are compelled to be moral becuase otherwise they are sent to hell, otherwise there would be no need to threaten anyone with hell. Sure the minority of christains, known as protestants, say that all you need is faith, but the rest of christians say that you have to actually act in a moral way and the largest christian group specifically says that you must do good works otherwise you go to hell.

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