Tennesee and pagans

[Queen Tamar Garish]

Lol I used to do that same thing! I was trying to draw a hexagram. Coincidentally the hexagram is more powerful than the pentagram, so maybe I was on the right track with my naivety.

Wiccan?

You DO realize what you just typed, right? You are going to get FLAMED for that in due time. *runs away crying in fear of the atomic blasts*

Flamed? What for an unpopular opinion? That would only prove my point.

[Frank Hipper]

Sorry, but it's true.

An atheist isn't automatically off the hook for rudeness just because they are staunch in their beliefs..or unbeliefs as the case may be.

An obnoxious atheist is just as annoying as an obnoxious Christian.

Of course they are. Extremists of any ilk, you know.

[UltraViolence83]

Wiccan?

To be honest, I don't know what I am...I may even be some kind of atheist. I'm sure as hell no Wiccan, though.

Flamed? What for an unpopular opinion? That would only prove my point.

Well, you made a little generalization there with saying that "more often than not" athiests are rude and all. Of course there's some like that; in every group of people you're going to have your self-righteous assholes. Just that this board is filled to the brim with atheists and though they are not subtle they are quick to anger. Just a warning, is all.

[Hobot]

Sorry, but it's true.

An atheist isn't automatically off the hook for rudeness just because they are staunch in their beliefs..or unbeliefs as the case may be.

I would agree. A lot of atheists I know can be very rabid. They tend to be very rebellious and always cynical of anything/anyone religious (of course I'm 18 and attend a Catholic high school so most of the atheists I know are teens defying the "system").

I'm quite different. Even when I was a Christian I had very liberal view points, and now as an atheist my views aren't too much different (except I'm more accepting of homosexuality, abortion, and other controversial issues)

I suppose the point is that you should never judge someone exclusively by what they profess to believe in. It's been my experience that most people aren't even aware of WHY they believe in something. Often what they claim to believe in will contradict their views of the real world.

[Queen Tamar Garish]

Well, you made a little generalization there with saying that "more often than not" athiests are rude and all. Of course there's some like that; in every group of people you're going to have your self-righteous assholes. Just that this board is filled to the brim with atheists and though they are not subtle they are quick to anger. Just a warning, is all.

Well, if it truly makes a difference: In my experience, more often than not, the majority of atheists can be just as, if not more rude than, some fundamentalist Christians.

You mentioned the power in geometrical shapes earlier. Do you practice some sort of magic? Just curious.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Always good to use the caveat. In my own experience, however, it's about 70/30 in favor of atheists -- although I would also point out that I've enjoyed better success at reasoning with obnoxious atheists than I have at reasoning with obnoxious fundamentalist Christians.

[Queen Tamar Garish]

Always good to use the caveat. In my own experience, however, it's about 70/30 in favor of atheists -- although I would also point out that I've enjoyed better success at reasoning with obnoxious atheists than I have at reasoning with obnoxious fundamentalist Christians.

Isn't that because, on most issues, your worldview will more often mesh with an atheist's than a fundamental Christian's? Is it truly the difference in attitude or the difference in ideologies in your success ratios?

[UltraViolence83]

You mentioned the power in geometrical shapes earlier. Do you practice some sort of magic? Just curious.

Practice? No. At least, not yet. I'm more the armchair magician. I've books on the subject and scour the Internet looking for more information. Regardless of whether I practice it or not, let's just say that my views are nearly opposing of the standard Wiccan view on magic.

[Frank Hipper]

Isn't that because, on most issues, your worldview will more often mesh with an atheist's than a fundamental Christian's? Is it truly the difference in attitude or the difference in ideologies in your success ratios?

But by definition, the fundamentalist is going to have major difficulties with anyone of a differing POV or belief.

[Queen Tamar Garish]

You mentioned the power in geometrical shapes earlier. Do you practice some sort of magic? Just curious.

Practice? No. At least, not yet. I'm more the armchair magician. I've books on the subject and scour the Internet looking for more information. Regardless of whether I practice it or not, let's just say that my views are nearly opposing of the standard Wiccan view on magic.

That would be an interesting read. You should start a thread on it sometime.

[Queen Tamar Garish]

Isn't that because, on most issues, your worldview will more often mesh with an atheist's than a fundamental Christian's? Is it truly the difference in attitude or the difference in ideologies in your success ratios?

But by definition, the fundamentalist is going to have major difficulties with anyone of a differing POV or belief.

True. Because of the strictures of certain religions, they leave little room for outside beliefs...most particularly atheism. Some people who are jerks will use religion as an excuse to belittle others. Much like what happened to this girl, if that truly was the reason.

However, atheism has plenty of room for accepting and tolerating other people's beliefs. Many choose to denigrate, insult and stereotype the religious anyway. And those are they types in the final analysis who are just as closed minded and obnoxious as any religious type.

[Hotfoot]

True. Because of the strictures of certain religions, they leave little room for outside beliefs...most particularly atheism. Some people who are jerks will use religion as an excuse to belittle others. Much like what happened to this girl, if that truly was the reason.

I should point out that atheism is not a belief structure, and thus is inherantly impossible to properly make any statements about the group as a whole. You might as well be attempting to define attributes for anyone not living in a certain country, or anyone who doesn't speak a certain language.

Pagans themselves can be considered athiests, so long as they don't believe in a "god". That's all it takes. You're heaping a truckload of other baggage along with it which is completely unwarranted.

Also, please note:

She said she was taunted, found slurs painted over her locker and was injured when classmates assaulted her and slammed her head into the locker.

This goes far beyond belittling. If you'd like, I can go back and point you to a real-life account of how similar treatment was aimed against an atheist growing up in Texas.

However, atheism has plenty of room for accepting and tolerating other people's beliefs. Many choose to denigrate, insult and stereotype the religious anyway. And those are they types in the final analysis who are just as closed minded and obnoxious as any religious type.

Again, your words are poorly chosen. Atheism is a lack of a belief in a god or gods. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Queen Tamar Garish]

True. Because of the strictures of certain religions, they leave little room for outside beliefs...most particularly atheism. Some people who are jerks will use religion as an excuse to belittle others. Much like what happened to this girl, if that truly was the reason.

I should point out that atheism is not a belief structure, and thus is inherantly impossible to properly make any statements about the group as a whole. You might as well be attempting to define attributes for anyone not living in a certain country, or anyone who doesn't speak a certain language.

Apparently, I was no clear enough. The strictures of religion leave little room for accepting other beliefs. This most particulary goes for the belief of atheism which is the polar opposite of religion. A Christian will never accept atheism..but that is not excuse to treat an atheist like shit. I also feel the opposite is true. Even if you dislike Christianity it is not an excuse to treat the Christian like shit.

I never meant to imply that atheism was a structured belief system. Just a belief individuals hold.

Pagans themselves can be considered athiests, so long as they don't believe in a "god". That's all it takes. You're heaping a truckload of other baggage along with it which is completely unwarranted.

I am perfectly aware that all atheism is, is a belief that God does not exsist. I think the percieved baggage is derived because I did not make myself clear enough.

Also, please note:

She said she was taunted, found slurs painted over her locker and was injured when classmates assaulted her and slammed her head into the locker.

This goes far beyond belittling. If you'd like, I can go back and point you to a real-life account of how similar treatment was aimed against an atheist growing up in Texas.

If true, it is horrible. May I point out, however, that because it happened in Texas does not prove it happened it here. I am in no way trying to say it never happens, nor that it may have here. I was merely pointing out that there are other possibilities at play here as well.

However, atheism has plenty of room for accepting and tolerating other people's beliefs. Many choose to denigrate, insult and stereotype the religious anyway. And those are they types in the final analysis who are just as closed minded and obnoxious as any religious type.

Again, your words are poorly chosen. Atheism is a lack of a belief in a god or gods. Nothing more, nothing less.[/quote]

Religious types generally rely on God to explain away intolerance and obnoxious behavior (errantly, I might add). That is their excuse. Some atheists will sometimes do the same things just to be pricks and then complain about a lack of acceptance for them. Not only does this make them as bad as the Christian who is acting like an ass, but a hypocrite too.

[haas mark]

Pagans themselves can be considered athiests, so long as they don't believe in a "god". That's all it takes. You're heaping a truckload of other baggage along with it which is completely unwarranted.

One simple arguement ~ Pagans don't believe in just one god. It is a multitheistic belief structure. However, if youtake the conventional definition of paganism (anything not Judao-Christian), then beliefs such as Buddhism and Taoism are automatically considered atheist.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Always good to use the caveat. In my own experience, however, it's about 70/30 in favor of atheists -- although I would also point out that I've enjoyed better success at reasoning with obnoxious atheists than I have at reasoning with obnoxious fundamentalist Christians.

Isn't that because, on most issues, your worldview will more often mesh with an atheist's than a fundamental Christian's? Is it truly the difference in attitude or the difference in ideologies in your success ratios?

I'm tempted to say that it's the difference in the approach to debate, since atheism, as far as I know, does not by itself constitute an ideology. It doesn't have its own built-in goal or plan. It seeks to accomplish nothing, and requires no adherence to rules or set parameters. This means that people who are atheist don't have a set of rules set down about how they can and can't analyze a given subject.

Fundamentalist Christians, on the other hand (the ones I've met, anyway) have a very strict and limited set of rules laid down for them (by the Bible, by their church, by the religious people they interacted with in their formative years, whatever). Some of these "rules" are actually logical fallacies:

Here's an example -- according to fundamentalists, if you're not serving Jesus, you're serving Satan. That's a false dilemma -- it presents a false statement (you're serving someone); it then produces two options: (You're serving Jesus/You're serving Satan) while unnecessarily omitting a third option: that you're not serving anyone.

With that one fallacy alone you lose the ability to debate rationally with a fundamentalist, because by the very act of debating him, he can label you in his own mind -- and usually pretty vocally as well -- as a servant of Satan. Fundamentalists, by their subscription to these rules, willingly suspend rational thinking to some degree.

[Hotfoot]

Apparently, I was no clear enough. The strictures of religion leave little room for accepting other beliefs. This most particulary goes for the belief of atheism which is the polar opposite of religion. A Christian will never accept atheism..but that is not excuse to treat an atheist like shit. I also feel the opposite is true. Even if you dislike Christianity it is not an excuse to treat the Christian like shit.

I never meant to imply that atheism was a structured belief system. Just a belief individuals hold.

I am perfectly aware that all atheism is, is a belief that God does not exsist. I think the percieved baggage is derived because I did not make myself clear enough.

The thing is, atheism isn't even a belief that someone holds. It's merely a null state, the lack of belief. To be a thiest, one must have a belief in a god or gods. To be an atheist, one must not have that belief. It is not a case of believing one thing or the other, but believing in something or not. The difference might seem subtle, but it is quite important.

If true, it is horrible. May I point out, however, that because it happened in Texas does not prove it happened it here. I am in no way trying to say it never happens, nor that it may have here. I was merely pointing out that there are other possibilities at play here as well.

You were trying to argue that Atheists can be just as bad as theists (specifically fundamentalist Christians). I'd like to argue that point, but Atheism is so broad that it would be akin to attempting to defend all humanity.

Religious types generally rely on God to explain away intolerance and obnoxious behavior (errantly, I might add). That is their excuse. Some atheists will sometimes do the same things just to be pricks and then complain about a lack of acceptance for them. Not only does this make them as bad as the Christian who is acting like an ass, but a hypocrite too.

I fail to see the point. If a religious type explains away their intolerance and obnoxious behavior on God, then that is what they believe to be true, regardless of if they are right or wrong. If an Atheist explains a religious type's intolerance and obnoxious behavior on the religious type's belief in God and then points out why it is erroneous and intolerant, then would they not be correct?

An atheist would never seriously say, "God told me to do it." If they did, they would not be an atheist.

Your examples seem extremely general and vague, and are thus very difficult to have a meaningful discussion around. Perhaps you could clarify what you mean further.

Verilon: Sorry, should have been "god or gods". Spiritualism, which many would define as pagan, would be considered atheistic.