Secularism and western civilization

[zombie84]

I'm doing my final Grade 13 history essay on Atheism and i was wondering if anyone here would be of any help. The class is Modern Western Civilization and our final essay is to be on a person or movement relating to this (17th century to modern times). My thesis is that modern western society was born out of a rejection of religion, the spread of secularism and the development of atheism as a philosophical movement; all beneficial advances in science, technology, governement and morality have resulted from the rebellion against religion and the acceptence of atheism. The era when Christianity controlled the world was known as the Dark Ages, a period of ignorance and violence. When philosphers began to question and challenge religious authority, the Enlightenment resulted, a period of the first significant development of science and technology, where the ignorant and close-minded religious view of morality gave way to humanism, democracy and equality. The battle of modern western civilization has been a battle against religion.

That is the gist of my essay. If anyone has any links to articles and essays that would be of any help to me, it would be much appreciated. I've read through a few books, and the Secular Web has been very helpful with its Robert Ingersol collection. Any help would be much appreciated guys, thanks.

[EvilGrey]

I'm doing my final Grade 13 history essay on Atheism and i was wondering if anyone here would be of any help. The class is Modern Western Civilization and our final essay is to be on a person or movement relating to this (17th century to modern times). My thesis is that modern western society was born out of a rejection of religion, the spread of secularism and the development of atheism as a philosophical movement; all beneficial advances in science, technology, governement and morality have resulted from the rebellion against religion and the acceptence of atheism. The era when Christianity controlled the world was known as the Dark Ages, a period of ignorance and violence. When philosphers began to question and challenge religious authority, the Enlightenment resulted, a period of the first significant development of science and technology, where the ignorant and close-minded religious view of morality gave way to humanism, democracy and equality. The battle of modern western civilization has been a battle against religion.

That is the gist of my essay. If anyone has any links to articles and essays that would be of any help to me, it would be much appreciated. I've read through a few books, and the Secular Web has been very helpful with its Robert Ingersol collection. Any help would be much appreciated guys, thanks.

Atheism gave rise to Stalin and Mao.

Enough said.

[kojikun]

Christianity gave rise to the crusades, witch-hunts, and Adolf Hitler.

Stalin and Mao just liked atheism, MARX gave rise to Stalin and Mao.

[EvilGrey]

Christianity gave rise to the crusades, witch-hunts, and Adolf Hitler.

Yes to the first two, no to the last.

The Crusades were inconsequential compared to the death and destruction caused by atheism in the first half of the 20th Century.

Stalin and Mao just liked atheism, MARX gave rise to Stalin and Mao.

Atheism gives rise to megalomaniacs because. among other reasons, they fear no God.

[SirNitram]

That is the gist of my essay. If anyone has any links to articles and essays that would be of any help to me, it would be much appreciated. I've read through a few books, and the Secular Web has been very helpful with its Robert Ingersol collection. Any help would be much appreciated guys, thanks.

I'll try and come up with some exacts, but check out the Founding Fathers Sticky thread for some quotes about how the US was certainly founded out of rejection of religion. Good luck on the essay!

And please ignore EvilGrey. He's got something called a 'Wall of Ignorance', logic and reason bounce off him.

[kojikun]

A man who fears no god still must fear his peers and himself. A man who fears god but believes god will back his crusade fears noone (until faced with his own murder or torture at the hates of those he dislikes).

And christianity DID cause adolf hitler to be the madman he was. All you need do is read one passage from the bible to see how horrible it is.

[Colonel Olrik]

Atheism gave rise to Stalin and Mao.

Enough said.

Religion gave rise to the Inquisition, where virgins where tortured by extracting their guts through their throat.

Religion gave rise to the Extermination of jews, blacks, muslims, indians and more, because it was doing God's job afterall.

religion still gives way to alqaeda fanatics who wants to blow westerners to bits, and their fanatical christian counterparts.

Religion is partially responsible for you, a child with no inherent sense of moral and that only behaves because that's what he supposes God wishes him to do.

[kojikun]

and that only behaves because that's what he supposes God wishes him to do.

Lets not forget the schizophrenic hallucinations that give him the idea that he knows what God wants him to do.

[RedImperator]

Ignore the fucktard.

While the rise of secularism has played a part in the advancement of western civilization, I don't think you can credit it alone. Chinese civilization has been essentially athiest for thousands of years and stalled thoroughly in the 15th century, right when Europe was beginning to ascend. Islamic civilization made great strides scientifically until the Mongol invasion destroyed its intellectual center at Baghdad. Clearly, the presence of religion doesn't preclude scientific development and the absense of religion doesn't assure development.

[NapoleonGH]

evilgrey no matter how many times you people say that hitler wasnt a christian, acting on behalf of the lord (in his mind), it still wont make that fact any less true.

Furthermore atheism had NOTHING to do with stalin and mao, they didnt have it as their reason for doing anything. The church was attacked to get rid of an outside power that would threaten their power, sure marx viewed a perfect world as one without religion, but that was never the reason why Stalin and Mao attacked the churchs,a nd the vast majority of their killings and the death caused by them (most of the death caused by mao was due to disaserous economic policy) had absolutely nothing to do with religion.

Atheism does qualify as part of the thesis of zombie and he is completely right.

[Hobot]

Atheism gave rise to Stalin and Mao.

Enough said.

Would you stop hijacking threads please? If you want to debate your assertion go back and answer the rebuttals to your arguments in the Scary Fundie Quotes thread.

[Darth Servo]

Christianity gave rise to the crusades, witch-hunts, and Adolf Hitler.

Yes to the first two, no to the last.

Bullshit

The Crusades were inconsequential compared to the death and destruction caused by atheism in the first half of the 20th Century.

Only because the crusaders didn't have modern technology and fewer people around to kill. If they had nukes, they would have certainly used them on the Muslims.

Atheism gives rise to megalomaniacs because. among other reasons, they fear no God.

Fundamentalism gives rise to megalomanics because they think their conquests are "God's will"

[Illuminatus Primus]

Atheism gave rise to Stalin and Mao.

Enough said.

Atheistic philosophy did not encourage Communist atrocities. Marxist theory did.

Christian atrocities are a direct result of their God exhorting them to kill all the heathens.

[Darth Wong]

Saying that atheism is responsible for communism is like saying that mathematics is responsible for communism (in both cases, the communists subscribed to it but it has nothing to do with the idiosyncrasies of communism). Associating cause based on coincidence is moronic in the extreme.

*wonders if EvilGrey is even remotely capable of understanding what I just wrote*

[Darth Servo]

*wonders if EvilGrey is even remotely capable of understanding what I just wrote*

Nope. It has words with more than two syllables in it.

[SirNitram]

Didn't we vote to FM this retard? Hell, his Wall Of Ignorance is stronger than Darkstar's.

[Darth Wong]

He's repeated that idiotic "atheism = communism" argument a hundred times, gotten it shot down a hundred times, and just repeats it. He's like the fucking Energizer bunny; he just keeps going and going and going ...

[Stravo]

I guess religion wasn't responsible for 9/11 either right?

[Darth Servo]

I guess religion wasn't responsible for 9/11 either right?

[idiot fundie]
Of course not. Islam is a cult, not a real religion.
[/idiot fundie]

[Darth Wong]

Back to the original thread subject, there are certain aspects of religion which INHERENTLY work against scientific development. While it is possible to overcome these influences, however briefly, it is INEVITABLE that science and religion will clash.

The basic mindset of most religions is faith: you are asked to believe in an external entity or event or principle without a shred of objective evidence. This is most certainly true, and on many layers, in the case of the "big three" related monotheistic religions: Christianity, Islam, and Judaism. All three rely on "revealed truth" as handed down by anointed "prophets" (read: some guy in a beard said God talked to him, therefore it must be true, HALLELUJAH!!!).

Now, the fundamental disconnect with science comes from the fact that the scientific method inherently rejects this whole mentality. In science, if it is not independently verifiable, repeatable, and quantifiable, it's worthless. Hence, all "revelation" is worthless.

In short, in order to be religious, one must employ a mode of thought which is COMPLETELY unscientific. In order to be scientific, one must employ a mode of thought which is COMPLETELY anti-religious. A religious man can be a scientist by separating those two spheres of his life, but no such double-life is required on the part of an atheist.

Historically, religion and science coexist uncomfortably. Religion only tolerates science insofar as it does not step on any toes or kill any sacred cows. The minute it does so, religion clamps down hard (see creationist movement and ongoing attacks against biology and geology). That is why science was always limited, always constrained, always suppressed to a certain extent until the rise of secularism. Under a theocracy, where religions gain real power, science will always be constrained not to come to conclusions which offend the nation's official religion.

[Nova Andromeda]

--AMEN AND HALLELUJAH!!!

[Nova Andromeda]

zombie84, you have neglected to account for the fact that the religous right (at least in the U.S.) has been learning how to use science and technology to further their ends, constrain opposing views, subvert the gov., and still reap the benefits of modern tech. On the other side, there has been almost no effert put into countering this offensive strategy. There is no organized opposition and the scientific community is busy working away without a though to who will control the product of their labor. Worse yet the scientific community and atheists in general have failed miserably when it comes to teaching logic, reason, and science let alone that logic and reason can be used to derive morality.

[InnerBrat]

*pointedly ignores the misogynist prick*

Zombie, the Drak Ages are not named after Christianity, they're named after the lack of written records!
For the Enlightenment, I recommensd you look up writers such as Erasmus Darwin,
but I would concetrate on the intellectual revolution of the 19th century - the questioning of the eductaional elite (such as only Cofe members being allowed into Oxbridge) and the extablishment of UCL, and writers such as Huxley, Wallace and Chambers.

Good luck!

[Johonebesus]

Alright, the only time Christianity came close to ruling the world was the 19th century. The Middle Ages were called "dark" because classicists believed that the light of civilization was lost with the fall of Rome and was not relit until the Renaissance. In truth, the High Middle Ages, from the 10th through the 13th centuries, were highly productive. The inductive method, optics, chemistry, all had their origins in the Medieval period. It was several centuries more before real science in the modern sense developed, but it has its roots in the Middle Ages.

It seems to me the key to Modern culture is not the rejection of religion, but the rejection of authority. That often took the form of rejecting the Church, but that was only one rejection among many. The rejection of the idea of force acting at a distance was not really about religion, and then the rejection of that rejection had nothing at all to do with religion. Really, science works precisely because what your elders say has no inherent worth, but must prove its worth through reason and evidence, and can be abandoned with sufficient evidence. Religion tends to rely on authority, but then so do many institutions and practices which have little to do with religion. The key to science and the modernist culture is the ability to say, Ï don't give a flick what the old folks say." That was a truly revolutionary attitude, and still is throughout much of the world.

[UltraViolence83]

Religion existing as a way of life and philosophy reflects a culture's identity. It represents their hopes and fears. Unfortunately, it does get out of hand when shitheads like the Taliban ban things like music.