The Empire vs. The Third Reich

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-10 08:28pm

And yet the Feds, you contend, somehow do NOT? Was Imperial Hyperdrive SLOWER at Endor? Were their troops LESS NUMEROUS?

The first part about Feds having home field advantage consding they grew up for the most parts in nice citys and Ships VS 20 years in Jungle Primival yes I'd say they DONT have home turf Advantage
They did not call for reforcments so the speed of Hypdrive could matters less, Thier troops where spread out, most at the Front Gate(Notice the lack of the AT-AT showing up)
An arrogence is a strong factor or need I remind you of another Certian Arrogent Roman Commander who took three Legionions into German one afternoon...

John Clark · Post by **John Clark** » 2002-07-10 08:36pm

See, what we're dealing with here is Arrogance. The reason so many SW debaters gravitate toward the Empire is that, like the Empire, they are inherently arrogant people. They assume that since the Empire rules all (after all, NO ONE EVER defeated the Empire, right?) then the Empire can waltz into a TOTAL UNKNOWN and just whip ass on everything it encounters.

Yes, the Feds do have Home Field Advantage. Why? Because it's THEIR Home Field the Imps are walking into.

An example of SW arrogance? The Jedi Archive Keeper. Perfect example. Rather than even contemplate the possibility that there was something uncharted (which, granted, there shouldn't have been according to the backstory) she simply dismissed the possibility outright! Didn't even bother to check! Didn't even THINK TWICE about it! Yoda himself mourned the growing arrogance of the Jedi, and the Imperials are WORSE!

Their arrogance has proven to be their weakness numerous times, and in unfamiliar territory, that weakness can be (and in RL often has been) terminal.

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2002-07-10 11:15pm

True, the Feddies do have the Home Field Advantage, but do they know how to exploit it? I've seen STI, where an army unit should have been used, but wasn't. If they had an army, then protecting those righteous little snots would've been so much easier. In battle, arrogance is better than not having jack shit. The Federation either doesn't have an army, or doesn't know when to deploy said army. Either way, the Imps do have an army, an when to deploy it. Have you ever seen, or read about Imperial Navy officers doing an infantry rush, or holding one off?

SCVN 2812 · Post by **SCVN 2812** » 2002-07-10 11:24pm

That answer to why an army unit wasn't used in STI is simple, Picard originally intended to do it alone because he did not want anyone else getting in trouble for violating orders. Yet his senior officers wouldn't let him do it alone, and they like their captain, didn't want anybody else getting in trouble or even killed for their actions.

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2002-07-10 11:50pm

Fat lot of good that did. The Enterprise still had to fight. Besides, if he was going alone, shouldn't he have at least brought down some proper equipment, like hand grenades, flamethrowers, or maybe sonic weapons for incapacitating the So'na?

John Clark · Post by **John Clark** » 2002-07-11 12:15am

[quote="Isolder74"]i feel that the german army could fight the empire. bullets can be just as effective as a Blasters.[quote]

Prove it
Okay, let's prove it. You shoot yourself in the head with a .45, and I'll shoot myself in the head with a blaster...

No?

Okay, then.

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2002-07-11 12:19am

Since you'll both die, his point stands.

John Clark · Post by **John Clark** » 2002-07-11 12:26am

No, his point doesn't stand. His point was that blasters are more effective than bullets, which is obviously untrue.

Robert Treder · Post by **Robert Treder** » 2002-07-11 12:31am

Actually, his point was that bullets are just as effective as blasters:

Isolder74 wrote:i feel that the german army could fight the empire. bullets can be just as effective as a Blasters.

Whether or not that is true is another matter entirely.

John Clark · Post by **John Clark** » 2002-07-11 12:33am

Oh, well do enlighten me! Do you have some scrawled-on-a-napkin-found-in-a-bar-George-Lucas-went-to-20-years-ago "evidence" that proves being shot with a blaster is somehow MORE LETHAL than being shot with a 30.06?

Robert Treder · Post by **Robert Treder** » 2002-07-11 12:39am

Well, I said that was another matter entirely; I'm not going to comment on it either way right now.

Tycho · Post by **Tycho** » 2002-07-11 11:05pm

Zoink wrote:Everyone is of the opinion that the germans would lose so:

Replace the german 88s with catapults

Replace the german machine guns with slingshots.

Replace the machine pistols with spears and axes.

Replace their helmets with little fuzzy-bear-outfits

.... does that even the odds???

But seriously: How about the battle of endor, replacing the Ewok army at endor with a German armoured division.

As described in "The Truce at Bakura" by Leia, the Ewoks won ONLY by the virtue of "sheer numbers" (direct quote).

If the Empire uses more than a single legion (which they could do EASILY), the Germans are screwed, even in their little bear suits.

Tycho · Post by **Tycho** » 2002-07-11 11:09pm

John Clark wrote:No, his point doesn't stand. His point was that blasters are more effective than bullets, which is obviously untrue.

You get shot in the gut, you have a good chance of living.

If you get shot by a blaster in the gut, you've got a smoking crater, which SHOULD kill you (as explained by Corran Horn about Gavin in the book "Rogue Squadron", when Gavin was shot in the stomach by a stormtrooper on Toprawa or some planet like that).

Both are lethal. How about this. You shoot yourself in the head with a gun. Then I'll laugh at your stupidity? :p

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-11 11:13pm

You get shot in the gut, you have a good chance of living

Having lived with a ER Nurse before I can tell you. Thats mostly right

Change it to
You have a good chance of Living.. For AWHILE is better
Gut-shots are pretty bad lots of things you can mess up and lots of lifestyle changes you'll have ot make

Doomriser · Post by **Doomriser** » 2002-07-11 11:41pm

Zoink wrote:Everyone is of the opinion that the germans would lose so:

Replace the german 88s with catapults

Replace the german machine guns with slingshots.

Replace the machine pistols with spears and axes.

Replace their helmets with little fuzzy-bear-outfits

World War II would have been a lot funnier that way...

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2002-07-12 12:23am

Asymmetrical warfare is a bitch. The US Army probably would have done better in Vietnam against the Soviet Army than they did against the Viet Cong (assuming equal numbers).

User099 · Post by **User099** » 2002-07-12 07:33am

Well, thinking in a technical aspect, if a German armoured division, fully equipped w/ air support fought the Imperial legion on Endor, they would most likely win. For one thing, an AT-ST wouldn't be able to stand up to very many 88mm shells hitting it constantly, plus artillery and fighter/bomber strikes would cripple them. Same with the AT-AT. If a 500 pd bomb wouldn't knock it over, a bomb from a medium-bomber like the He-111 certainly would. The Imperials would be swamped by the hard-hitting tactics of the Germans, even IF their weapons vastly outperformed the Germans'. Mortar fire, tank support, direct and indirect fire would decimate the Imperial troops, tanks and aircraft would take out the AT-ST/ATs and those speedy little bikes? A Bf-109 would be able to keep up with it, fly in low from behind and strafe until it brought it down.

Eleas · Post by **Eleas** » 2002-07-12 07:53am

"See, what we're dealing with here is Arrogance. The reason so many SW debaters gravitate toward the Empire is that, like the Empire, they are inherently arrogant people."

No, what we deal with here is a sniveling little fuckhead whose posts offend every rational organism. And that would be you.

Eleas · Post by **Eleas** » 2002-07-12 07:58am

Eleas wrote:"See, what we're dealing with here is Arrogance. The reason so many SW debaters gravitate toward the Empire is that, like the Empire, they are inherently arrogant people."

No, what we deal with here is a sniveling little fuckhead whose posts offend every rational organism. And that would be you.

"They assume that since the Empire rules all (after all, NO ONE EVER defeated the Empire, right?) then the Empire can waltz into a TOTAL UNKNOWN and just whip ass on everything it encounters."

The Empire was beaten by reasonably intelligent people with the same technology base and training. The Feds lack intelligence, tech and training for this.

"Yes, the Feds do have Home Field Advantage. Why? Because it's THEIR Home Field the Imps are walking into."

Pah. Pathetic. There are no wild animals here to present any danger. Every hazard has been sterilized, sculpted or blunted. I wouldn't be surprised if the civilian population of the Federation lacked knives,

"An example of SW arrogance?"

So arrogance is now inimical to Star Wars? You really are subhumanly retarded.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2002-07-12 08:36am

John Clark wrote:Okay, let's prove it. You shoot yourself in the head with a .45, and I'll shoot myself in the head with a blaster...

No?

Okay, then.

I'm talking about penetrating Stormie armour.

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2002-07-12 09:54am

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now if we leave Hitler in charge though the Gremans might still lose.
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And the WAY superior tech level of the Empire has nothing to do with it?

and my point was that Hitler was a tacticle idiot. he was the Allies best weapon. it was proposed sending commandos to kill him and Winston Churchhill said why, he is our best weapon.

and just because Blasters are flashy and "cool" does not mean that German Light and Heavy machine guns wouldn'd be able to pierce Stormtrooper Armor. 45 cal to 60 cal machine guns can penetrate light armor so why not stormie armor. German's loved using High velocity guns. so there heavy artillry weapons had more armor penetration than its size would suggest. even an AT-AT would cave under prolonged bambardment (no armor can take unlimited kinetic energy hits) and explosives have proved succesfull against AT-At's

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2002-07-12 10:05am

Isolder74 wrote: and my point was that Hitler was a tacticle idiot. he was the Allies best weapon. it was proposed sending commandos to kill him and Winston Churchhill said why, he is our best weapon.

and just because Blasters are flashy and "cool" does not mean that German Light and Heavy machine guns wouldn'd be able to pierce Stormtrooper Armor. 45 cal to 60 cal machine guns can penetrate light armor so why not stormie armor. German's loved using High velocity guns. so there heavy artillry weapons had more armor penetration than its size would suggest. even an AT-AT would cave under prolonged bambardment (no armor can take unlimited kinetic energy hits) and explosives have proved succesfull against AT-At's

You just helping my case. If the Germans need Machines guns to punture Stormie armour and a lot of artillery to take down a AT-AT.

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2002-07-12 10:17am

under Light Machine guns i include the 38 cal "machine Pistol" and the German infantry standard weapon was a 45 cal Rifle. this weapon would be able to pierce ST Armor. also the larger german tank Tiger Tanks had a 65 mm high velocity gun. Technology can be a hinderence too i could put a 12 in artillery enplacement behind a mountain would wreack havoke on a AT-AT devision with it's only line of site weapons

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2002-07-12 10:25am

Isolder74 wrote:under Light Machine guns i include the 38 cal "machine Pistol" and the German infantry standard weapon was a 45 cal Rifle. this weapon would be able to pierce ST Armor.

ST?

also the larger german tank Tiger Tanks had a 65 mm high velocity gun.

prove it can penetrate.

Technology can be a hinderence too i could put a 12 in artillery enplacement behind a mountain would wreack havoke on a AT-AT devision with it's only line of site weapons

Then SW can use air support or their artillery.

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2002-07-12 10:34am

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Technology can be a hinderence too i could put a 12 in artillery enplacement behind a mountain would wreack havoke on a AT-AT devision with it's only line of site weapons
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Then SW can use air support or their artillery.
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the German Lufwaffe could cover the artillery. Tie Fighters are not designed for atmospheric use. the high manuverablity of the German aircraft would keep those tie's busy. Tie's are fragil and prologed fire on them and they'd cave. 200 lb bombs droped on At-aat's would make a mess too. as would white phosforous incediary bombs