Notes on the hyperdrive

[Ender]

And a lot of us want an official SW quote calling the Executor a 17 km command ship and the ISD known as the Imperator-class.

Bullshit dodge. And the Executor has been stated to be a 17 KM long command ship. Now provide the SW quote that says you are right.

Actually it showed clearly that all stars were mapped in the galactic disk.

No shit, we can map stars today. That doens't mean we can and do go to them all

It also portrayed a galaxy that is far different from the Chronology/NJO ones.

Only in your mind. THe lack of the dwarf galaxies is easily remedied.

Actually it reinterates the "concentric rims" from novels. Where the UR is beyond the Outer Rim--the outer concentric ring.

Except it does nothing of the kind. Did you even look at the map? The UR is not labeled, and there is a large chunk unlabeled that if you adjust 90 degrees is right where the UR is. It does not contradict the existance of the UR, it supports it.

Bzzzt. That's the sound of a wrong answer. Chiss territory encorporates a whole continuous sector. Thrawn's House Phalanx mapped 240 sectors.

The Chiss sector contains a dozen or so colonized worlds. The House Phalanx doesn't support any vessels larger than 300 meters. Evidently not only are we talking about large, continuous expanses of territoy, and not much in them.

But Ender thinks in a galaxy where the hyperdrive can take them across the disk in a matter of days and billions of colonized worlds are utilized for mining--that huge expanses of the galaxy just are avoided and forgotten for thousands of years.

There's a reason why Saxton, Wong, and I all are among those that think it is fucking stupid.

Nice rant, now address the point. There is an easy explanation, yet you claim it is wrong.

Uh ok. This doesn't contradict anything I said.

I thought you said I was the one with the reading problem? You said that the wild spaces being at the edge of space meant that the UR must be beyond them, outside the galaxy. However the Wild space is just the edge of known space, not the edge of the galaxy.

Yes and they just forgot about hundreds and hundreds of sectors that while supposedly part of the disk--appear quite empty.

How about you address the point insetad of repeating your self? You get offended when I compare you to Darkstar, but this is one of his favorite tactics.

As for it being empty:

“But there are hundreds of thousands of stars in and around Chiss space”, Wyn said. – page 242

“Hundreds of thousands of stars
It was easy to say the words, but much more difficult to comprehend what they actually meant. On a map, the Unknown Regions comprised only 15 percent of the total volume of the galaxy; but when that 15 percent became the search area for something as small as a planet - which on the cosmic scale was much, much smaller then a needle in a haystack – the true immensity of the task became all too apparent” – page 246

Zenoma Sekot had first appeared on the Imperial fringes of the Unknown Regions, visiting three systems within a couple of years. Then it had jumped clear across to the outer edge of the galaxy, where habitable systems were few and far between. There it had encountered a species that, before its enslavement by the Yuuzhan Vong early in their invasion, would relate to Chiss visitors the coming of a world that hung in their sky for a month, burning and smoking. This certainly didn’t match the description of the lush and peaceful world given by Vergere, but it did match predictions of the sort of stresses the crust of a planet might experience by jumping in and out of gravity wells through hyperspace. No one had ever heard of such a feat before, so there was no experimental data on record, but most basic planetary science suggested that Zenoma Sekot would not have been unscathed by its precipitous jumps across the galaxy. Following this, it had retreated inward, toward the core of the galaxy,” – page 184

“Worlds upon worlds upon worlds upon worlds… Saba ranged among the records of civilizations dead, thriving, or newly born. There were a thousand new species to examine, but time didn’t allow her to linger too long on any of them; she could only touch fleetingly upon each, skimming over their aspirations and philosophies like a pebble across a pond.” - 168


All from Force Heretic Refugee.

How is it empty if it contains hundreds of thousands of stars with habitable planets that can have their own species?

Uhm...yeah. That's my point. The UR is a sparsely populated galactic halo and certain sections of the galaxy wouldn't be simply lost or more difficult to get to.

It was late and I fucked up. I want some proof from you in the form of a quote from a lucas arts SW publication that it is part of the galactic halo.

I suppose there is a new Empire growing the Core Worlds that no one knows about. Adumar is simply technologically retarded. The Chiss are just a group of humans go awry somewhere. The Sith Empire was never lost--they traveled beyond known space and were later rediscovered which suggests hyperdrives and navigation technology was poorer in the past.

Again, nothing that counters my point. You said it should have all been colonized. I point out it was, then forgotten. You ignore this, and go off on a tangent.

And I'd like to know how the Sith Empire was never lost according to you when in the same sentance you say they were "rediscovered"

Yet the Mining Guild keeps tabs on the billions of mining worlds throughout the spiral arms. Yet Tattooine was just as settled 4000 years before ANH.

We know the spiral arms don't have preferencial areas of resources and structure--there wouldn't be gaps of useless stuff. And the corporate entities of the Republic were quite expansionist.

Odd that the Droid factories were secretly reopened then, after being closed. I mean, if they went everywhere, then surely Geonosis would be operating at fill capacity instead of being shut down in favor of closer and thus cheaper core words of Mechis 3, right? Oops, this is not the case. They didn't go out there anymore, and the factories closed as a result. This is in a high tech era where hyperspace travel is common and easy. Yet you refuse to accept that they might stop going to an area for economic reasons back when you claim hyperdrive was shitty, and didn't go back because by the tiem hyperdrive got better those places were difficult to get to and the stuff was available close to hoime.

That's just absurd. Besides--the canon map in AOTC shows correct proportions and shows a galaxy that is not the erroneous maps' galaxy.

Aside from the spiral galaxies where are easily explained as AOTC is a library map and the NJO maps a fucking road map/

Circumstancial support from EU descriptions, and esp. from the canon and specific comment that all the star systems are known and mapped. Period.

All rationalized. You only refiuse that because you think your assumptions are as good as canon, and ignore anyone else (IE Connor in the TL debate, my point about Missiles vs TLs)

You have some flimsy circumstantial evidence held together only because you sit there and keep screaming you are right. the vast majority of the evidence says I am right.

So let's adopt a clearly fucking stupid point of view that assumes the GFFA just generally avoided a section of the galactic disk for 1000s of years.

It is what it is. You are yet to provide any evidence to the contrary. I will repeat it again: Provide a quote from any official SW source stating the the UR is outside the galaxy proper and is a galactic halo.

“Hundreds of thousands of stars
It was easy to say the words, but much more difficult to comprehend what they actually meant. On a map, the Unknown Regions comprised only 15 percent of the total volume of the galaxy; but when that 15 percent became the search area for something as small as a planet - which on the cosmic scale was much, much smaller then a needle in a haystack – the true immensity of the task became all too apparent” – Force Heretic 2: Refugee page 246

The UR is part of the total volume of the galaxy, not an outside slice.

The galaxy could refer to the galactic disk, the region around the galactic disk or the overall halo. Keep in mind that areas that are technically not part of the galaxy proper, like Rishi, are considered part of "the galaxy."

No, Rishi is not. It is specifically said to be a seperate dwarf galaxy.

The UR makes up 15% of what is called the Galaxy. Star clusters that fall at the edges are considered outside the galaxy (See the SSi Ruuk)

Where?

I emailed him about how he achieved the values for the 900 Gigajoule Blaster at the tail of Slave 1. He said that he went by the damage it is shown to do to other vessels in the comics in battles and assumed that Boba dialed down the power in the movie (which is supported by the novel). He chose official over canon.

You nitpick this. I admitted I used a red herring. Point is--the AOTC is still a higher canonical source than general EU and that is why.

Again, rather then conceed that you were in error, you try and twist from the original point.

Red herring. TPM drew Coruscant from HttE. AOTC ICS is about the AOTC movie, and is thus not about EU and is thus closer to the movies.

Not a red herring. You claimed it was based soley on canon, a claim that is totally false.

Funny--I'm in one of the most competative international programs in existance,

Great, I'm at what Time Magazine rated as the 3rd hardest school on the planet, learning how to operate the most advanced technology mankind has under the most stressful possible conditions.

have a job,

So do I, and it's a safe bet that being enlisted eats up more time then anything a civillian does

a girlfriend, and a set of friends.

And I have both as well. Now then, are we done comparing our dick sizes? I am.

Silly how that works.

So you claim you have a more time demanding life then me to support the fact that you have more free time then me. Think about that position, ok?

And if you are putting in more then 83 hours a week (which is my average) at your work, I pity you.

Anyone who reads the thread can see how you're a liar and can't read cited sources. Enjoy. And Connor couldn't grasp that the VD described something that is universally contradicted by canon visuals, thus when the ICS offers an explanation that is at least partially supported by canon visuals, the ICS explanation is preferable.

You know, funny thing, after that thread I got PMs saying that people saw I was fighting you and what a pain in the ass you were. So apparently you are the only one who views it that way.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Conceded on the Unknown Regions and the AOTC ICS not being based on canon as the basis of its canonical status.

[Ender]

Thank you.

[His Divine Shadow]

The Official site is EU, really.

Certain source materials like AOTC ICS, VD, etc. are higher than pure EU sources because they're based solely on the movies.

AOTC ICS is NOT based soley on the movies. Infact it draws rather heavily on the EU. I have emailed saxton about hwo he got some of this stuff and he explained it to me. The bulk of it is EU.

Not heavily, and it is higher than EU novels since it bases itself directly on the movie, see the TL thread down below, last posts.

[Boba Fett]

Illuminatus Primus

at least with the sequence seen in the original version of The Empire Strikes Back.

From SWTC.
Perhaps it's not the object which is rotating, but the camera.

You just can't get the stars rotating within a stationary disk while the stars outside the disk do not move, and the background of the frigate remains the same with camera affects.

It is just not the galaxy. It cannot be the galaxy. Galaxies do not rotate that quickly--that is simply an intrinsic characteristic of the thing known as "galaxies."

Maybe you should check the SE. But I doubt they changed it. I'll take a peak myself as soon as possible. If the disk is visibly rotating in SE, than it is not the galactic disk.

but Palpatine's galaxy is of the order of a hundred thousand light years across.

Therefrom, why?

Major spiral galaxies are usually on the order of 100,000 lyrs in diameter.

Our galaxy is 100,000 light-years in diameter. The Galaxy Far, Far Away is 120,000 light-years across according to Official sources.

Totally agree with IP!

On the other hand, even with an SW hyperdrive it would take ages to get so far from your own galaxy to see it like it was pictured in TESB.
Also have to mention that in that case you have to travel through an unmapped area where long distance jumps are highly dangerous.

[K. A. Pital]

Boba Fett
I don't think it's rotating in SE though.

[Vympel]

In fact, I just wonder how the AOTC ICS is based directly on the movie? Doesn't it include weird craft not being in the movie at all or give exact cutaways of the ships (E.g. the Acclamator) which are not explored in the movie? What does "movie-based" mean? I can understand that for novels, radio dramas, comic adaptations, which have some canonicity at least (or may have), but WTH does that mean in case of the ICS?

Every ship/object in all three ICS are in the films. There are no EU ships depicted in them.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Boba Fett
I don't think it's rotating in SE though.

It is rotating. The nebula was untouched for the SE.

[K. A. Pital]

Spanky The Dolphin
The nebula was untouched for the SE.
Why did then Saxton mention the difference?
I recall something more like a red star from the Originals.

And I wonder how can we than explain that this damn thing, whatever it is, is exactly the same as the one on Obi's computer?
Like: "This is not a Galaxy, but on Obi's computer it is a Galaxy"... Or "this is not a Galaxy, and on Obi's computer it is NOT a Galaxy", which is actually easier to rationalise if we take only the movies. Perhaps Kamino was just situated near that nebula, or something like this?

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Saxton says no such thing. It is exactly the same in both versions.

Here is Saxton's entire article on the subject:

Rendezvous-point spectacle
After escaping Lord Vader's trap at Bespin, Luke Skywalker and his companions rejoined their portion of the rebel fleet. From the rebel medical frigate a large white disk dominated the sky to the port side. The disk was thicker and brighter towards its centre and it seemed to contain a myriad of tiny points.

There is much conjecture about the nature of this phenomenon. The Topps Widevision cards refer to it simply as the "vastness of space." Unfortunately it is not possible for other references to be so circumspect; a definite identification seems necessary.

Some people believe that it is the entire Galactic Empire, or else a nearby companion galaxy. This theory seems to have been adopted by Tales of the Bounty Hunters, which describes the rebel fleet resting somewhere above the galactic plane. However the object seen outside the medical clinic window is more distant than several times its own diameter; the viewers are not merely just a little way above the plane of that disk. Perhaps the bulk of Palpatine's galaxy is out of sight in the other half of the sky and the glorious vista is just a neighbouring galaxy?

There is a crucial difficulty with the "galaxy" interpretation, at least with the sequence seen in the original version of The Empire Strikes Back. Viewers of The Empire Strikes Back report that the phenomenon seems to rotate visibly within only a few seconds. This spin is much too rapid for a galaxy. Motions within a spiral galaxy are of the order of up to a hundred kilometres per second, but Palpatine's galaxy is of the order of a hundred thousand light years across. As pointed out in The Cosmic Mind Boggling Book, the observed rotation would equate to rotational speeds on the rim reaching at least "the impossible velocity of 33 billion times the speed of light".

The object seems too bright to be a galaxy. When viewed from a distance great enough to account for the observed size, a spiral galaxy would look like a dim milky disk to the naked eye. It would have the same kind of luminance as the shine of the open sky on a moonlit night. From a vantage point inside a brightly-lit medical theatre, a spiral galaxy would be harder to see than the blazing entity at the end of The Empire Strikes Back. If it is galaxy-sized, the object must be a quasar or some other exotic active extragalactic entity which just happens to be in the neighbourhood of Palpatine's galaxy.

A normal galaxy also exhibits overall colour variations due to regional differences in stellar populations. The galactic core should be a somewhat redder hue, and the disk bluer. It is not certain whether the object is colourful enough to be a normal spiral galaxy.

This object's morphology also seems a bit unusual for a sprial galaxy. The arms are too tightly wound, and the nucleus is proportionately too large. On the other hand, it might be a galaxy which has suffered a gravitational encounter with another galaxy, which could distort its shape. There may be other galaxian possibilities capable of explaining the shape of this object; maybe it is some kind of nearby dwarf galaxy.

Other commentators assert that it must be a protostellar disk, a cloud of gas and dust collapsing under gravity to form a new planetary system with a sun at its centre. Or it might be some kind of accretion disk surrounding a black hole or other compact strong gravitating body. Or it might be something yet more exotic, perhaps even something which exudes matter as it rotates, rather than accreting stuff. However it is not clear whether the structure and colouration suits a protostellar disk or accretion disk either. A protostar should be surrounded by dusty molecular cloud material, not open space as seen in the film. The observed rotation is less ludicrous for these smaller kinds of objects than for an entire galaxy, but it is still very problematic.

The notion that the object is something of less than galactic scale is supported by a caption in a report in CINEFEX #2 p.8. The object is pictured and explicitly described as a "nebula". A nebula is one or another kind of cloud of gas and dust in interstellar space. It could refer to a protostellar nebula, or something similar in scale but presently unknown to science. The exact quote is:

Effects unit art director Joe Johnston prepares a model nebula for photography. The swirling star formation was filmed with a slight rotation and incorporated into the final sequence.
The novel The Mandalorian Armour supports a nebula interpretation, since it describes a similar "spiral nebula" near the Kuat system and remarks that there are several of these objects in the galaxy.

This topic remains unconcluded; it is possibly the most severe technical difficulty in the whole trilogy.

While the issue remains open, most evidence points to it being a nebula.

IIRC, it also doesn't look exactly the same as the Galaxy (or the satelites) in AOTC.

[K. A. Pital]

Spanky The Dolphin
It's the image of the ESB galaxy takes out of ILM archives, I think, it was mentioned somewhere in the Ep2. image attack series.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Still, you are ignoring the fact that most evidence points in the direction that the ESB object is most likely a nebula, as that's was the Cinefex article refers to it as, and it is rotating about a million times too fast. So what if they use the same image in the AOTC display, we don't see them rotate, and it can't be automatically argued that they're the same type of objects.

[K. A. Pital]

Spanky The Dolphin
In fact, Saxton says there is more difficulty to rationalise the "galaxy" in original than in the SE:

There is a crucial difficulty with the "galaxy" interpretation, at least with the sequence seen in the original version of The Empire Strikes Back.

So there must be a difference, otherwise the quote is meaningless?

points in the direction that the ESB object is most likely a nebula

Yes, indeed. I thought about that and came to the following two possible rationalisations somewhere in the posts below:

And I wonder how can we than explain that this damn thing, whatever it is, is exactly the same as the one on Obi's computer?
Like: "This is not a Galaxy, but on Obi's computer it is a Galaxy"... Or "this is not a Galaxy, and on Obi's computer it is NOT a Galaxy", which is actually easier to rationalise if we take only the movies. Perhaps Kamino was just situated near that nebula, or something like this?

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Spanky The Dolphin
In fact, Saxton says there is more difficulty to rationalise the "galaxy" in original than in the SE:

There is a crucial difficulty with the "galaxy" interpretation, at least with the sequence seen in the original version of The Empire Strikes Back.

So there must be a difference, otherwise the quote is meaningless?

But there aren't any differences. I think that sentence might date back to before or during the production of the Special Editions, and Saxton either forgot or never bothered to revise it. Notice that he doesn't mention what any possible difference is, but only suggests that there is the possibility that a difference might exist.

Listen, I am 99.99% absolutely positive that there are zero differences to the nebula seen in both versions of the film.

[K. A. Pital]

Spanky The Dolphin
I have perhaps the strangest screenshot from ESB, but it pictures a red star. I belive that there are no differences too, because Saxton provided a screenshot (from the classic ESB, I hope) where the same yellow-white thing is.
Still, we have to rationalise what the heck this thing is doing on Obi's computer. Being static doesn't help much, since maps are usually static images.

[Illuminatus Primus]

There is a crucial difficulty with the "galaxy" interpretation, at least with the sequence seen in the original version of The Empire Strikes Back.

So there must be a difference, otherwise the quote is meaningless?

Argument from Ignorance and Appeal to Authority.

The point is that the object from ESB rotates too fast to be a galaxy and is refered to as a nebula.

It is a nebula because it is impossible it can be the galaxy.

The AOTC map galaxy has several differences from the ESB nebula and does not rotate or anything that would discredit the supposition it is a galaxy.

There is an explanation for the visual similarities between the galaxy on Obi-Wan's monitor and the nebula from ESB.

It is called coincidence. "That thing" is not on Obi-Wan's computer, because the ESB nebula is not the galaxy. They happen to have visual similarities.

[K. A. Pital]

The AOTC map galaxy has several differences from the ESB nebula

Are you sure the AOTC map shows a Galaxy? (uh, it must be in the AOTC novel, yes?).
And I wonder what was the point of taking the image of the ESB nebula and using it for the image of the galaxy, to confuse the fans? Did they intend the thing to be a Galaxy, actually, or what?

[Illuminatus Primus]

Regardless of intent, factual knowledge says ESB nebula is not a galaxy.

The AOTC galaxy is a galaxy and intended to be such. Under Suspension of Disbelief this must be simply accepted, regardless of aesthetic similarity to ESB nebula, because there's nothing to refute the AOTC galaxy being a galaxy.

Add in that the AOTC galaxy is not the exact same as the ESB nebula, and that the ESB nebula didn't have satellite galaxies like the AOTC galaxy, and there's not continuity flub.

[K. A. Pital]

Illuminatus Primus

The AOTC galaxy is a galaxy and intended to be such.

Why, is it somewhere in the canon or what? (I'm just asking for making it clear).

Under Suspension of Disbelief this must be simply accepted

Why? It can be a nebula as well if no source ever named it as a Galaxy.

and that the ESB nebula didn't have satellite galaxies like the AOTC galaxy

Well, in fact they may just be not seen from the ESB point of view, again, correct me if I'm wrong.

[Robert Treder]

Stas, if you're the only person who ever thought that the map in AOTC wasn't showing the galaxy, maybe you should stop and think about that before you keep on pushing.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Your personal view that there is an aesthetic similarity between the AOTC map galaxy and ESB nebula is irrelevent.

The ESB nebula cannot be a galaxy due to its rotation velocity.

The AOTC map galaxy is intended to be a galaxy and nothing indicates it couldn't be.

Thus the ESB object is a nebula, and the AOTC map image is a galaxy.

Why is this hard to understand?

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Stas, if you're the only person who ever thought that the map in AOTC wasn't showing the galaxy, maybe you should stop and think about that before you keep on pushing.

That's why I thought it was weird that Stas was doing all of these analysis pages when he doesn't seem to have the greatest grasp on the films, the EU literature, or the subjects therin.

Plus, reading his posts make him sound kind of loopy.

[K. A. Pital]

Robert Treder

Stas, if you're the only person who ever thought that the map in AOTC wasn't showing the galaxy, maybe you should stop and think about that before you keep on pushing.

If there is no statement that the AOTC map shows a Galaxy, I come to the conclusion that it can possibly be something else not a Galaxy. What is wrong?
Illuminatus Primus

Your personal view that there is an aesthetic similarity between the AOTC map galaxy and ESB nebula is irrelevent.

But it's not my personal view! In was in Gameland #3 2002, and I believe it's in the Ep.2 Image Attack on sw.com, where they stated that for the AOTC map they took the object (uh, and perhaps there was even the word "Galaxy", but I can't recall now) from ESB.
Listen, I do not argue is it a Galaxy or not. I just want to find out what the hell did they mean.

The ESB nebula cannot be a galaxy due to its rotation velocity.

True. Now:

The AOTC map galaxy is intended to be a galaxy and nothing indicates it couldn't be.

I don't care much what it is, I just want to know, DID anyone EVER refer to it as to a Galaxy. That means: I don't disagree. I just want to know.
Could you please give me the statement? That's all I ask for. Something like "we were working on this Galaxy map" or from the novel "Obi-Wan looked at the Galactic map" or something like that, I don't care wherefrom, even from EU.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Stas, seriously, why are you such a loon when it comes to stuff like this?

[K. A. Pital]

Spanky The Dolphin
Seriously, I'm doing it because I'm German, perhaps. For precision.
I haven't read much of Star Wars EU material (it's hard to get even in Germany, not to mention Russia which is the place of my study). So I ask for a reference.
I just want to know why the AOTC object is a Galaxy. It's visual apperance is not the reason (because it's same of the ESB object), so I assume someone stated that the AOTC object was intended to be a Galaxy. And I just want to know this statement. For my notes. Because correction requires precision.

Nothing loony here, I suppose