I GOT HOVIND

Superman · Post by **Superman** » 2003-05-16 01:46am

Before I begin my story, I just want to tell you that Hovind is truly a lying worthless individual. I firmly believe he is a liar, and that he cares only about the money that he is making.

Let me begin with the juicy stuff first. After the debate, I talked to Hovind outside personally. Oh how I wish I would have taped it. He first asked me "why I rejected Jesus" after hearing my background. I replied, "that's a loaded question, you have to show me Jesus first." He then said it wasn't loaded. Anyway, let me show you how Hovind talks. I got to the topic of God's so called morality of the Old Testament. I pointed out, for example, that he had the Israelites slaughter the Alakemites, and then I asked him if this is morality. He replied saying that the Alakemites were ordered dead for the better of mankind. He said they were having sex with animals and that they were spreading diseases... This is what happened:

Me: Where does it say they were spreading these diseases?

Hovind: It doesn't. (speaking very quickly) We know from archaeology.

Me: Give me a source on an archaeological dig that demonstrated Alakemites spreading diseases because of sex with animals.

Hovind: Ok, let me put this to you another way. If you had a son, I have two but they're both married now, and he got a big sliver in his arm but didn't want me to take it out, and I took him to the hospital where they strapped him down to take it out, would that be okay?

Me: Sure but you...

Hovind: You just contradicted yourself!

Me: I did not! You are changing the subject!

Hovind: No, I am not. Under your evolutionary morality, you...

Me: GOD ORDERED THE SLAUGHTER OF THE ALAKEMITES! THE BIBLE SAYS NOTHING ABOUT DISEASES FROM ANIMALS...

Ok, this was just a part of our conversation. Let me give you another one...

Me: I think you are attacking the idea of "links" when you know full well that evolution works through populations. You are trying to say that mutants cannot reproduce but...

Hovind: Ok, like what?

Me: Archaeopteryx for example. You said it would have died off being the only one... I am saying that there would have been a population...

Hovind: Gould, Shermer, and <someone else> would all disagree with you...

ME: No they would not, because we have THREE separate examples of this species on record!

Hovind: It was just a bird...

ME: It had teeth and a reptilian skele...

Hovind: A bird was just discovered in South America. A hummingbird with a full set of 42 teeth...

ME: I don't believe you...

Let me point out that this is where the conversation started to end. He glanced at one of his cronies in a suit who promptly came over and glared at me. I guess he was a bodyguard. Funny thing is, this guy was big, but I bet he wasn't used to trying to intimidate someone around someone my size. He said, "Thanks for coming" and shook my hand. I think he was trying to squeeze the life out of me. I squeezed back. It was really awkward.

Hovind talks FAST. He must have his brain engaged at top speed when he talks to people. He can make shit up faster than you can say, "amen."

More to come on the debate that happened with my prof in a minute. It was... well... just wait and see.

Superman · Post by **Superman** » 2003-05-16 02:04am

Ok, about the debate.

Kent Hovind came for a fee of 9,000 dollars and my professor made no bones about telling us. My professor got 100 dollars to debate. My professor also responded to one of Hovind's attacks by saying, "if ignorance is bliss, Mr. Hovind must be the happiest men on earth." It was great.

Hovind showed up with a power point presentation, complete with a database that he could just click on to get info, slides and a big rear projector. When my professor brought up information on the speed of light, for example, Hovind would get up and click his database to bring up his slideshow on this topic. My professor didn't have anything like that. Hovind was well prepared.

Also, the audience was made up of mostly Christians. They had no clue as to what "genetic drift" was but when Hovind showed a picture of Osama Bin Laden and called him a "cave man" the Christians roared with laughter. My professor had the task of trying to explain science, explain what evolution is and is not, how carbon dating works, etc., and all Hovind had to do was make jokes and straw men. Hovind was really preaching to his choir.

These Christians also seemed to worship Hovind. After the debate, they got his autograph and posed in pictures with him.

Even though my teacher brought up great points, I think Hovind got the best of him. But what gets me is that I GOT HOVIND after it when just he and I were talking. I am not a great debater and I don't know half as much as my teacher, they key here is that Hovind was not using his power point database and joke cards. It was just mano e mano with me, and he lost. He even called his crony over to end it. I should have kicked that Hovind follower's ass...

I did, however, ask Hovind if he would debate James Randi, if we could get him. He said he would. I am going to see if we can make that happen.

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2003-05-16 02:15am

Good for you! Did he mention anything about the way fossils are formed? The only time I've seen him on TV, he had a desicated pickle in a jar claiming it was fossilised!

You should have asked how his felony assault charge case is going.

Superman · Post by **Superman** » 2003-05-16 02:21am

He just said that there are no transitional fossils at all.

The question and answer period was not live from the audience. We had to write questions on paper and then the mods would decide which questions would be asked. Of course the mods were Christians...

I could have asked him that in person, but I wanted to have a legitimate conversation with the guy. Of course, that didn't happen either...

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2003-05-16 02:36am

Superman wrote:I did, however, ask Hovind if he would debate James Randi, if we could get him. He said he would. I am going to see if we can make that happen.

Bah. Hovind would either put ridiculous restrictions on such a debate or pull a Sylvia, I'd bet.

Superman · Post by **Superman** » 2003-05-16 03:20am

Oh, Hovind also used the old "Hitler was an evolutionist/atheist" shit.

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-05-16 03:22am

Superman wrote:Oh, Hovind also used the old "Hitler was an evolutionist/atheist" shit.

While Hitler might have accepted evolution theory, that doesn't make one an atheist.

BTW, even other creationists regard Hovind as a phony. That says a lot about his (lack of) credibility.

Superman · Post by **Superman** » 2003-05-16 03:29am

Yeah, I know. The Christians there didn't seem to know though...

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2003-05-16 09:57am

You video taped it didnt you?

Darth Gojira · Post by **Darth Gojira** » 2003-05-16 10:38am

*high-fives Supes* WOOHOO! You ain't no Huxley or even Wong, but that musta felt good! I wish Hovind would have the balls enough to debate in front of unbiased viewers, but hey, he wants to feel secure in his rapidfire bullshit. Thumbs up!

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-05-16 10:53am

Darth Gojira wrote:*high-fives Supes* WOOHOO! You ain't no Huxley or even Wong, but that musta felt good! I wish Hovind would have the balls enough to debate in front of unbiased viewers, but hey, he wants to feel secure in his rapidfire bullshit. Thumbs up!

He's trying to win a convert out of the few non christians who might attend. Thats why the audience is stacked with believers. If a non-creationist sees a lot of people agreeing with the pro-creation side, the heathens in the audience might think, "the creationist seems to know what he's talking about" in a blatent appeal to popularity fallacy.

PeZook · Post by **PeZook** » 2003-05-16 11:52am

Darth Servo wrote:Thats why the audience is stacked with believers. If a non-creationist sees a lot of people agreeing with the pro-creation side, the heathens in the audience might think, "the creationist seems to know what he's talking about" in a blatent appeal to popularity fallacy.

A typical psychological trick. It was demonstrated (by Solomon Ashe, for example) that people tend to modify their own views if they see a large group agreeing with a notion (even if it's obviously wrong) if they are alone in a large group that agrees with said notion. Eg. in Ashe's experiment, he showed a group of people a chart with four stripes of varying lenght. They were supposed to say which one of the three on the left side of the chart was most similar in lenght to the single one on the right. The best thing was, that the experimental group was stacked by assistants, who claimed the wrong thing (i mean, obviously wrong).

The trick worked. If a person was alone (like with an atheist attending that debate), and the group consistently chose the wrong answer, the poor soul was inclined to agree with them. Heck, some said that they SAW the wrong stripes as being exactly the same lenght.

If a person was confident in his/her ability, they often continued to disagree with the group. The same went if they had an "ally" in the experimental group. On the other hand, if the experimental group was stacked with people of authority (real or perceived) the poor guinea pigs tended to agree more with the rest of the group.

Anyways, Hovind is obviously playing psychological and rhetorical games. The frighthening thing is that from what i've seen on the Net, it seem to be working...

Superman · Post by **Superman** » 2003-05-16 12:59pm

I wish you guys could have been there. These creationists are DIRTY! Yeah, my professor had a student tape it, and we are going to make copies of the tape. Unlike Hovind, he doesn't care about profiting from this.

I once read about a skeptic group in Arizona that tried to get Hovind to do an email debate. He wouldn't do it and kept saying he would only do a live one in a public forum. I can see why. His format is VERY effective, (but ONLY effective) when he stands in front of a live and mostly creationist audience. He also clicks that power point slide show to get his information and jokes.

I'll get on this tape ASAP.

Superman · Post by **Superman** » 2003-05-16 01:30pm

Here is a link where Hovind talks to on Coast to Coast. This one is pretty good and Hovind repeatedly falls flat on his face. Check it out.

http://home.austarnet.com.au/stear/hovi ... _tales.htm

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-05-16 01:46pm

PeZook wrote:Anyways, Hovind is obviously playing psychological and rhetorical games. The frighthening thing is that from what i've seen on the Net, it seem to be working...

Creationism was virtually destroyed nearly a century ago. The creationists regrouped and realized that their mistake had been to put it forth as a scientific theory, using scientific means. They determined that if they went straight to the uninformed public and appealed to their collective emotions and ignorance, they would be much more successful.

In short, creationism stopped trying to be a scientific theory about a hundred years ago, and became a marketing campaign.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-05-16 01:51pm

Superman wrote:Here is a link where Hovind talks to on Coast to Coast. This one is pretty good and Hovind repeatedly falls flat on his face. Check it out.

http://home.austarnet.com.au/stear/hovi ... _tales.htm

Nice. Get this:

Hovind wrote:And that's really what evolution teaches, that we started off like a rock, and we're slowly evolving, and, you know, eventually gonna become in charge of our own destiny.

AFAIK, we pretty much ARE in charge of our own destiny. The only thing we can't prevent is death itself (although it can be delayed significantly). Does Hovind really think we will eventually evolve into immortals with god-like powers? He's been watching too much speudo science in sci-fi (among other things).

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-05-16 02:43pm

Darth Servo wrote:
Hovind wrote:And that's really what evolution teaches, that we started off like a rock, and we're slowly evolving, and, you know, eventually gonna become in charge of our own destiny.

Now That's What I Call A Straw-Man!

Starscream · Post by **Starscream** » 2003-05-16 03:40pm

KH: How on earth do we get the other elements? You know, there's 92 elements. They would have to evolve.

At this point in reading I really really want to stuff a science book down this man's throat. I feel sorry for the children that had him as a science teacher.

Starscream · Post by **Starscream** » 2003-05-16 03:46pm

Hovind on Carbon dating wrote:KH: Sure, I'll give it to you real quick. Carbon dating is based on several obvious assumptions. If you had walked into a room and found a candle burning on a table, and I said Hey, when was that lit? And you said Well I dunno. It was burning when I got here. I said, oh, ok, let's see if we can figure how long it's been burning. So we measure the heighth [sic] of the candle. Now we can do that very precisely. Let's say the candle is 7" tall. Ok, we get all the scientists to agree it is 7" tall. Now, you still can't tell me how long it's been burning, but you now have a scientific fact. Let's get another scientific fact by watching how fast it burns. And we time it with Olympic stopwatches, and you know, we find out it's burning an inch an hour. Here's our two empirical bits of science: It is 7" tall; it's burning an inch an hour. When was it lit? Well, you're kinda stumped at this point because you're going to have to make a few assumptions. Number 1, how tall was it when it started? And of course, we don't know that. And number 2, has it always burned at the same rate? And you don't know that, either. When you dig up a fossil, a Neanderthal or whatever, you can test how much carbon-14 is in it. Very precisely, by the way. And you can test how fast it decays very precisely. And then you're kinda stuck. You have to guess how much was in it when it started. And has it always burned at the same rate? Has it always decayed at the same rate? We know that neither of those is true.

Measure the amount of melted wax.

Queeb Salaron · Post by **Queeb Salaron** » 2003-05-16 03:51pm

And for the record, we DO know that Carbon has always decayed at the same rate. Even if we didn't, there is no evidence to indicate otherwise.

If Hovind really thinks that the world is 16000 years old, then I'd like to have him explain dinosaurs. Big fuckin' reptiles roaming the earth (and evidence to prove that they DID roam the earth), and yet no mention of them in the Bible. Not a word. You'd think that Adam would have ridden a Brachiosaur or two in his time, or at least hired a mammoth to help him move out of Eden. But no, we left them out. Small potatoes.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-05-16 03:55pm

Hovind wrote:KH: And then finally we have microevolution. Now this one is scientific. It is observed regularly. You know, wolves and dogs probably had a common ancestor. They're very different, but stand back and look at 'em. It's the same kind of animal.

And yet dogs and wolves are NOT the same species. Cross breeding sorta works occasionally, but its not nearly as reliable as two wolves mating. This is CLEARLY an example of what the idiot creationists refers to as MACROevolution, not "micro" or the real biologists call speciation.

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi · Post by **Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi** » 2003-05-16 03:55pm

Queeb Salaron wrote:And for the record, we DO know that Carbon has always decayed at the same rate. Even if we didn't, there is no evidence to indicate otherwise.

If Hovind really thinks that the world is 16000 years old, then I'd like to have him explain dinosaurs. Big fuckin' reptiles roaming the earth (and evidence to prove that they DID roam the earth), and yet no mention of them in the Bible. Not a word. You'd think that Adam would have ridden a Brachiosaur or two in his time, or at least hired a mammoth to help him move out of Eden. But no, we left them out. Small potatoes.

I'm sure Hovind would find a way to "prove" that dinosaurs are mentioned in the Bible. Then, he'll "prove" that ancient man travelled in cars powered by their feet and used pelicans to mix cement.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-05-16 03:56pm

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi wrote:I'm sure Hovind would find a way to "prove" that dinosaurs are mentioned in the Bible.

Sure. They're the "dragons" mentioned from time to time.

Queeb Salaron · Post by **Queeb Salaron** » 2003-05-16 04:01pm

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi wrote:I'm sure Hovind would find a way to "prove" that dinosaurs are mentioned in the Bible. Then, he'll "prove" that ancient man travelled in cars powered by their feet and used pelicans to mix cement.

Because we all know that the Flintstones is historical fact. There is evidence to prove that not 2000 years ago, people used Wolly Mammoths to wash their dishes, and used pre-historic pigs under their amazingly well-decorated primitave counter-tops as garbage disposals.

In one remote part of South Africa, the words "Yabba Dabba Do" were found scrawled on the walls of a cave. This fact is largely accepted by archeologists. This proves three things: One, that spraypaint existed in pre-history. Two, because the words "Yabba" and "Yaweh" both have five letters and start with the letter Y, this is an obvious reference to the creation of man by God. Three, Evolution is wrong.

And there you have it, folks: Logic a la Hovind.

Starscream · Post by **Starscream** » 2003-05-16 04:03pm

Queeb Salaron wrote:And for the record, we DO know that Carbon has always decayed at the same rate. Even if we didn't, there is no evidence to indicate otherwise.

If Hovind really thinks that the world is 16000 years old, then I'd like to have him explain dinosaurs. Big fuckin' reptiles roaming the earth (and evidence to prove that they DID roam the earth), and yet no mention of them in the Bible. Not a word. You'd think that Adam would have ridden a Brachiosaur or two in his time, or at least hired a mammoth to help him move out of Eden. But no, we left them out. Small potatoes.

Ithink Hovind said 6000 years, but that doesn't really matter.

Anyway several things bother me about this guy. He seems to be a very experienced speaker, and immediately starts off, like all good public speakers, by trying to identify himself with a auience that is appearantly made up mostly of people with no scientific background. He continually make ambiguos statements referring to unknown sources. He works constantly to build an emotional bond with his audience and to build up an outrage over evolution. He belittles his opponents theories and comments using straw men and comparing them to completely unrelated subjects. You can see this when he makes the statement about the rock becoming a person eventually, an obviously foolish statement that can be easily defeated. He's nothing but a phony, and the only reason he's up there is to put on a show. It's like those teleevangilists you see on TV "healing" people.