Military Logic at work

[Jaris Merc]

Well im kindive new here but I have a fairly vaste knowledge of firearms considering that I like to read alot and I work on the side for a gun smith cleaning firearms..... Most of what im gonn say ive gathered from various sources from magizine articles to ex and current US mil personal... So heres what I have to say about this debate.


45 ACP- We now look at the colt 45 ACP... Its big, heavy, ugly, and old looking to most of the newer generation of military kiddies and ever since the success of the introduction of the M-16 the pro more ammo capicity and lighter weight nuts have gained power and have started bitching about the Colt M1911 45.....

I think that the colt 45 round is excellent and it has proven its self in 2 world wars and just about every war since 1911 that american forces have been involved in...... I will knock a fist sized hole in a man that will keep him from killing you which is a good thing.... anyways now onwards...

9mm berretta*sp*- The 9mm Berretta is Lighter than the Colt carrys about 2 times as much ammo and is said to be more accurate.... It also looks more high tech, cooler, spiffyer, and doesent kick as much, and every army uses it just about except for the few ex USSR nations that use the Makrov 9*18 * hurray the 9*18 costs 99 bucks mail ordered and will kill a man just as dead as the 9mm! hahahahaha over spending military govt people that need to be kicked in te face a few times!*
I personally think that the Berretta is about equal to the Colt because since it carrys twice as much ammo you can shoot him two times and that might equal the kill power of one thump from a 45.....

Anways

Pros
45 ACP round-
Alot of knock down power
simple tried and true design
If you ever run out of ammo you can always beat the enemy to death with it....

9mm
Lighter
Bullet travels faster can go through more armor than 45
Many many militarys use the 9mm round
Looks cool * like thats ever won any wars just ask Italy*
Holds alot of ammo


Cons
.45 ACP-
Heavy
Some complain of Recoil problem
Low bullet speed
not many world militarys use the round but hey that just means charlie cant use our weapons agianst us...

9mm-
Not much knock down power aka Thump
expensive or atleast more so than the 45 * gun not ammo*
a tad bit more complicated




anyways thats all i can think of.... its lateish im tired and a "Apocolypse Now" is on.... As for the above I think the .45 is better and the Army should give all the 9mm to cops and design a new .45 to replace the colt 1911 this new weapon should prehaps hold more ammo and be a bit lighter which will make the recoil problem worse but with todays tech of recoil suppression that should be solved easily...



I CANNOT AND WILL BE HELD LIABLE FOR HOW BAD MY SPELLING SUCKS!

[Lonestar]

Memento moment: By an astounding coincidence I happened to find a 1911A1 in my end table this afternoon. Strangest thing. I think I know where it came from but damned if I know how it got there. It did seem pretty big, but not so big that a healthy young woman shouldn't be able to handle one. I find the cost explanation more believable.

You hear any demonic voices saying "Kill them. Kiiiiillllll them." ?

[NapoleonGH]

Janis Merc: you really think that LOOKS should have anything to do with what weapon is adopted?

[Batman]

Janis Merc:Welcome!
*hurls rubber batarang at newbie in the newly patented*

BATPOKE!!!TM

Napoleon: I think the 'like that ever won any wars'bit in his post rather indicates that, no, he doesn't.

[Raxmei]

You hear any demonic voices saying "Kill them. Kiiiiillllll them." ?

Only when I'm at school. Why do you ask?

[Jaris Merc]

Napoleon- Hey they adopted the M-16 didnt they Oh well I doubt it had little to do with it but the army works in strange ways.......

Batman- Thanks... Ive been comming here and reading all the interesting articles and fanfics and such for a long time but never joined until a few weeks ago.

[NapoleonGH]

isnt the reason the AR-15/M-16 was adopted that it was at the time the best assault rifle available and even today is up there as far as effectiveness?

[Steven Snyder]

Steven: perhaps you missed that little part about "The Contracting Powers agree to prohibit, for a term of five years" See 5 years after 1907 = 1912, the first war based bombing happened in 1914/15 (i dont recall exactly whem but some recon pilot took a sack of grenades with him and droped them from his plane as he flew)

No actually I didn't. I was pointing out that we do not currently follow the Hague Conventions.

On this point we agree, my sole point for quoting this was that it was mentioned by another person that there is a provision somewhere that prohibited us from using high-velocity rounds. The Hague Conventions was the closest thing I could come to finding information on that, and it did not apply to the situation.

The only restrictions on weapons I can find in the Geneva conventions are for chem/bio warfare.

[His Divine Shadow]

I recently got to talk to a retired Army Col. who explained to me the reason the Army switched side arms from the Colt 1911A1 to the Berretta 9mm.

The Colt 1911A1, one of my favorite handguns.

[Steven Snyder]

isnt the reason the AR-15/M-16 was adopted that it was at the time the best assault rifle available and even today is up there as far as effectiveness?

I think it was more to do with military politics than anything else.

The M-16 was a light weapon and a soldier who was armed with one could carry a lot more ammunition than one who was armed with the older M-14 rifle. The M-14 also generated so much recoil with it's .308 cartridge that full-auto was virtually uncontrollable, the M-16 was more so.

The M-16 is still a great rifle, but I think that will be changing in the next decade.

[weemadando]

isnt the reason the AR-15/M-16 was adopted that it was at the time the best assault rifle available and even today is up there as far as effectiveness?

At the time every assault rifle in the fucking world was more reliable than the M-16. Only after the A1 and A2 upgrades did it reach a decent standard.

Hell, Aussies in Vietnam were lugging about FN-FAL/SLRs IIRC, and they were doing that until the early 90's when we went to the AUG. And let me tell you. The SLR was a far better weapon than the M-16 in Vietnam.

[Thirdfain]

I'm curious: It seems to me that bullpup design rifles (Like the Steyr AUG of CS fame) can give the barrel length of a rifle, while being more compact than conventional rifles like the m-16, and such. I am no gun nut, so this is just extrapolation on my part. Am I right or not? What is the advantage of the bullpup design over the conventional design? Is there an advantage?

[weemadando]

I'm curious: It seems to me that bullpup design rifles (Like the Steyr AUG of CS fame) can give the barrel length of a rifle, while being more compact than conventional rifles like the m-16, and such. I am no gun nut, so this is just extrapolation on my part. Am I right or not? What is the advantage of the bullpup design over the conventional design? Is there an advantage?

The advantage is you get a smaller weapon while not sacrificing barrel length and hence accuracy and muzzle velocity. There are some technical disadvantages due to a slightly more complex firing mechanism (ie the triggers all the way up there...), but with the reliability of the majority of these systems it really isn't a problem.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

isnt the reason the AR-15/M-16 was adopted that it was at the time the best assault rifle available and even today is up there as far as effectiveness?

At the time every assault rifle in the fucking world was more reliable than the M-16. Only after the A1 and A2 upgrades did it reach a decent standard.

Hell, Aussies in Vietnam were lugging about FN-FAL/SLRs IIRC, and they were doing that until the early 90's when we went to the AUG. And let me tell you. The SLR was a far better weapon than the M-16 in Vietnam.

The Colt platform is notorious for unreliability, especially in less-than-immaculate environments. I've heard that these reliability issues have been address in the M4s and 633HBs, based on third-party upgrade systems such as Olympic Arms AR15 workups and, most prominently, the Knight Armory Corporation SR-25. The SR-25K Battle Rifle and SR-25M Sniper variants are reputed to be especially formidable.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

anyways thats all i can think of.... its lateish im tired and a "Apocolypse Now" is on.... As for the above I think the .45 is better and the Army should give all the 9mm to cops and design a new .45 to replace the colt 1911 this new weapon should prehaps hold more ammo and be a bit lighter which will make the recoil problem worse but with todays tech of recoil suppression that should be solved easily...

Don't worry about your spelling, Merc. I think we've all seen worse at some point, and it's what you say here that counts, more than how you say it.

Now, regarding the .45... I agree, the .45ACP is the way to go. Now, as for replacing the M1911A1 design -- my personal preference is, No.

It's reliable -- gunmakers have a design right now that's practically as bug-free as a firearm design can get. And because its design is so basic, about the only thing you could come up with if you designed a firearm chambered for .45ACP from the ground up would be so similar to M1911A1 that there'd be no real difference anyway. Witness the H&K USP45.

[Steven Snyder]

I'm curious: It seems to me that bullpup design rifles (Like the Steyr AUG of CS fame) can give the barrel length of a rifle, while being more compact than conventional rifles like the m-16, and such. I am no gun nut, so this is just extrapolation on my part. Am I right or not? What is the advantage of the bullpup design over the conventional design? Is there an advantage?

There are a few problems with the bullpup design...

1. Left-hand shooters: On a conventional rifle the cartridge will eject away from the shooter irrespective of which hand they hold it in. The bullpup design doesn't allow this, if you hold it in the wrong way the cartriges will hit the shooter.

2. Reliability: So far all the bullpup designs that I have heard of are plagued with loading/feeding problems. This may be addressed in the future but so far it hasn't been.

I really like the bullpup design, and I think it is the future, but someone really needs to sit down and design a good one.

[Batman]

There are a few problems with the bullpup design...

1. Left-hand shooters: On a conventional rifle the cartridge will eject away from the shooter irrespective of which hand they hold it in. The bullpup design doesn't allow this, if you hold it in the wrong way the cartriges will hit the shooter.

Incorrect. The cartridge will eject TOWARD the shooter for southpaws in a conventional rifle, too. The ejection port is merely far enough forward of the shooter's body for that not to be a problem. Thanx to the bullpup having the chamber (and thus, the ejection port) closer to the shooter that is no longer the case-which is why properly designed bullpups have the option of ejecting the cartridge to the left.

2. Reliability: So far all the bullpup designs that I have heard of are plagued with loading/feeding problems. This may be addressed in the future but so far it hasn't been.

Could you elaborate, please? I am aware of the problems the SA-80/L85A has, but IIRC that has nothing to do with it being bullpup and everything with it being a design FUBAR. The french and the aussies (both-trian and -tralian) seem to be quite satisfied with the FA MAS and AUG, respectively.

I really like the bullpup design, and I think it is the future, but someone really needs to sit down and design a good one.

Methinks both Steyr and whoever builds Le Clarion have.

[Steven Snyder]

Incorrect. The cartridge will eject TOWARD the shooter for southpaws in a conventional rifle, too. The ejection port is merely far enough forward of the shooter's body for that not to be a problem. Thanx to the bullpup having the chamber (and thus, the ejection port) closer to the shooter that is no longer the case-which is why properly designed bullpups have the option of ejecting the cartridge to the left.

You phrased that better than I, but that is what I was trying to get across. Which bullpups allow the case to be ejected to the left...I think the Steyr does allow you to switch ejection sides but I don't know of any others.

Could you elaborate, please? I am aware of the problems the SA-80/L85A has, but IIRC that has nothing to do with it being bullpup and everything with it being a design FUBAR. The french and the aussies (both-trian and -tralian) seem to be quite satisfied with the FA MAS and AUG, respectively.

That was the problem I was referring to, I think the problems the Brits are having is really coloring how the US military views the bullpup design.

The reliability problems I was referring to aren't really the fault of the bullpup itself, just the design of the actual weapon.

Methinks both Steyr and whoever builds Le Clarion have.

I do like the Steyr Aug, I got handle one once and I am enthralled by it. That is a good bullpup design and I must admit I was a little hasty in generalizing all the bullpups like that.

What is the Le Clarion...wait a minute that sounds french.

Now if we can just get an American company to build one for the US military...doesn't Bushmaster have a decent one?

[Batman]

Incorrect. The cartridge will eject TOWARD the shooter for southpaws in a conventional rifle, too. The ejection port is merely far enough forward of the shooter's body for that not to be a problem. Thanx to the bullpup having the chamber (and thus, the ejection port) closer to the shooter that is no longer the case-which is why properly designed bullpups have the option of ejecting the cartridge to the left.

You phrased that better than I, but that is what I was trying to get across. Which bullpups allow the case to be ejected to the left...I think the Steyr does allow you to switch ejection sides but I don't know of any others.

Well, the three major in-service bullpups I know of are the SA-80, the AUG and the FA MAS. Only the SA-80 does not allow for left-side ejection.

That was the problem I was referring to, I think the problems the Brits are having is really coloring how the US military views the bullpup design.
The reliability problems I was referring to aren't really the fault of the bullpup itself, just the design of the actual weapon.

Okay. Agreed on the effect on the US military.

Methinks both Steyr and whoever builds Le Clarion have.

I do like the Steyr Aug, I got handle one once and I am enthralled by it. That is a good bullpup design and I must admit I was a little hasty in generalizing all the bullpups like that.

What is the Le Clarion...wait a minute that sounds french.

The FA MAS I mentioned earlier. It's called 'Le Clarion' (the bugle) for its shape.
It's the current assault rifle of the french armed forces.

[Rubberanvil]

9mm
Lighter

Personnally for me, 9mms jumps much more than the 45.

Bullet travels faster can go through more armor than 45

Depends on the type of bullet. The 45 doesn't need to punch through the vest to do damage.

Many many militarys use the 9mm round

Looks cool * like thats ever won any wars just ask Italy*

Don't knock their gun industry, they do make very good gun.

Holds alot of ammo

Irrelevent thanks to the large-cap magazine ban in the States. Also irrelevent even without the ban thanks to large-cap mags available to both calibers.

Cons .45 ACP- Heavy

There is lighter .45 guns available in addition to compacts.

Some complain of Recoil problem

Something which varies from person to person. Recoil from a .32 revolver gives me far more grief than say .45 or a 9mm. 44s, 454s, 50s and 10mms are the recoil monsters.

Low bullet speed

Depends on the ammunition.

9mm-
Not much knock down power aka Thump

Hence the reason why many police departments and branches of the military are retaining or switching back to the .45s.

expensive or atleast more so than the 45 * gun not ammo*

Varies on which gun you want to buy. A model which is OOP is usually going to be more expensive then a currently produced model.

a tad bit more complicated

Again it varies on the gun model. The

As for the above I think the .45 is better and the Army should give all the 9mm to cops and design a new .45 to replace the colt 1911

People been doing that for over 80 years, and Colt M1911A1 is still equal to its newer decendants (the 1911 derivatives).

this new weapon should prehaps hold more ammo and be a bit lighter which will make the recoil problem worse but with todays tech of recoil suppression that should be solved easily...

Been there, done that for all of the above. With the execption of pre-bans mags, the 1911 and the 9mms are retricted to 10 round mags.

[weemadando]

Well once we got the whole "barrel-melting" problem out of the way the AUG was quite a nice gun.

It works nicely in nearly all conditions. And its SIMPLE TO USE. You have a safety with 2 selections (safe and "SHOOTY!") and a nice trigger. Short shallow pull for single shot. Long and deeper pull for auto.

[Stuart Mackey]

Well once we got the whole "barrel-melting" problem out of the way the AUG was quite a nice gun.

It works nicely in nearly all conditions. And its SIMPLE TO USE. You have a safety with 2 selections (safe and "SHOOTY!") and a nice trigger. Short shallow pull for single shot. Long and deeper pull for auto.

Dont forget the fire while on 'safe' problem. There were a few problems in Timor with feeding I think..not sure though.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

In regard to the original topic, or, women and high-caliber pistols: I regularly shoot a 45cal without any trouble; I most assuredly prefer it over anything else for the hitting power...

...And I have a friend who's a Military Police Colonel in the RTA. Her personal handgun is somewhat larger than 45cal, and she fits the definition of a petite asian woman. It's all about training yourself to handle the weapon. I cannot emphasize that enough.

[weemadando]

Dont forget the fire while on 'safe' problem. There were a few problems in Timor with feeding I think..not sure though.

Those have been found to be related to truly shoddy weapon maintenance.

The barrel melting thing was a bit more pressing. When it goes all soggy before you've even finished a magazine... Yeah, well.

[Glocksman]

It's reliable -- gunmakers have a design right now that's practically as bug-free as a firearm design can get. And because its design is so basic, about the only thing you could come up with if you designed a firearm chambered for .45ACP from the ground up would be so similar to M1911A1 that there'd be no real difference anyway. Witness the H&K USP45.

While I love my 1911, if the military were going to readopt a .45 pistol, they'd almost have to adopt a new design because of cost. A 1911 is a masterpiece of early 20th century manufacturing with lots of machining and hand fitting needed during manufacture. All of that fitting and machine tool time adds cost.

More modern designs such as the SIG's Glocks, Rugers, HKs and so on were designed with one eye on ease of production and minimal machine work. This makes them cheaper to manufacture than a 1911 design.

The high price on a USP at the gunshop reflects the premium price that an HK commands in the marketplace, not expense of manufacturing.