Might as well make this offical...

[Alyeska]

Lets start with what started it all.

"The first two Incredible Cross-Sections books were conceived to explore bold new territory in the Star Wars universe, taking a rare look inside more vehicles and vessels than we had ever seen before, and doing in in unprecidented detail. These books would represent the most thorough research ever done on these vehicles and would receive Lucasfilm's formal imprimatur as canon. These volumes would henceforth be sent out to licensees as reference guides and would become useful manuals for Industrial Light & Magic, where some of the artwork influenced details in Episodes I and II." - P. 36 Star Wars Insider (#68 )

Take a wild guess what that means. As many of you know I have taken the stance of living with ICS while not accepting it. This changes things completely. ICS just got a level of standing much higher then I ever imagined and has become a part of the Canon level. To do this Lucas or the people in charge had to agree with it. Furthermore, it means the SW galaxy as I saw it from the EU (specificaly the novels) is not considered as high. I have my own personal view on what SW ought to be, but I recognize what the creators intend.

In that sense I concede the VS debates when it comes to the issue of firepower (one of the more well known points of the VS community). Not even the highest figures that I would consider remotely possible come anywhere near SW except in unusual circumstances or plot of the week enemies. I still think these figures are absurdly high, but this is what the creators intended. Of course I also think Culture level technology is absurd, but thats besides the point.

Take this for what you will. It took a fair amount of effort to swallow my pride like this. Many of you have known me for a while, through my better times and through the not so good ones. Simply put I accept that SW has yet another critical advantage (firepower) over ST and this is from the creators and owners of the series making these decisions. I must abide by what they say, and as such I am doing so.

I'm not signing off from the VS debates, there are still plenty of angles to look at with unique situations. There is also plenty of fun in theorizing. I just had to make this public knowledge so people understand my take on recent events.

Now, if anyone even thinks about gloating I will hunt you down and make you regret it, I shit you not. This is a very serious topic for me and because of how long I have been part of the VS community it has become personal and emotional for me.

[Ender]

It only says the first two explicitly. We need confirmation on AOTC still, even though it is a safe assumption that if those are, it is as well. But I still wouldn't count our chickens before they hatch.

Still man, my hat is off to you for having the guts to openly state this.

[Alyeska]

Still man, my hat is off to you for having the guts to openly state this.

It wasn't easy. Anyone who knows my VS history understands what I am talking about. Pride goeth before the fall.

[Lord Poe]

Still man, my hat is off to you for having the guts to openly state this.

It wasn't easy. Anyone who knows my VS history understands what I am talking about. Pride goeth before the fall.

Now will you come right out and refute that ridiculous notion that I nor anyone else that knows Curtis "put him up" to writing certain things in the ICS?

That's my main sticking point with you. To suggest such a thing robs Curtis of the hard work he did ALONE, as well as it implies that he broke confidentiality agreements, which he did NOT. I've known Curtis since 1996, and he never indicated to me that he was writing the ICS.

[Rightous Fist Of Heaven]

I know atleast one person who is crying out loud now and cursing how to come up with new excuses, wall of ignorance upgrades and idiotic responces. Try to guess who im talking about

Anyways this is something i have allways figured the case would be.
The ICS guides do not involve in the story of Star Wars neither they
re-interpret it in any way. They provide very detailed information in
parameters given by the movies, in essence they dont bring up any
EU vechiles for detaíling. The ICS's just felt somehow to be atleast
on the same level as the movie novelizations, because even those
can re-interpret something on the movies and present the things a bit
differently, ICS's however do not.

[Darth Wong]

The ICS's only describe things seen in the films. They are not like novels, which create things and events and places not seen in the films. They are much more akin to the movie novelizations, hence I have always maintained that they occupy a higher status than regular "official" material.

It's nice to have my prediction confirmed. As for the few naysayers left, I have always found it amusing that people will concoct elaborate arguments that are repeatedly confounded by contradictory events, yet they never question the method through which they arrive at their conclusions.

[Alyeska]

Still man, my hat is off to you for having the guts to openly state this.

It wasn't easy. Anyone who knows my VS history understands what I am talking about. Pride goeth before the fall.

Now will you come right out and refute that ridiculous notion that I nor anyone else that knows Curtis "put him up" to writing certain things in the ICS?

That's my main sticking point with you. To suggest such a thing robs Curtis of the hard work he did ALONE, as well as it implies that he broke confidentiality agreements, which he did NOT. I've known Curtis since 1996, and he never indicated to me that he was writing the ICS.

I was never one to make that claim. I heard it from others, but never repeated it myself. I wouldn't be surprised if Saxton was inspired or what not by talking with you, but that is a totaly different matter because its just someone using helpful information from another. No, I don't believe you intentionaly got high end figures put in ICS, I never did.

[Lord Poe]

I was never one to make that claim. I heard it from others, but never repeated it myself. I wouldn't be surprised if Saxton was inspired or what not by talking with you, but that is a totaly different matter because its just someone using helpful information from another. No, I don't believe you intentionaly got high end figures put in ICS, I never did.

Then I formally apologize.

[Anarchist Bunny]

Lets start with what started it all.

"The first two Incredible Cross-Sections books were conceived to explore bold new territory in the Star Wars universe, taking a rare look inside more vehicles and vessels than we had ever seen before, and doing in in unprecidented detail. These books would represent the most thorough research ever done on these vehicles and would receive Lucasfilm's formal imprimatur as canon. These volumes would henceforth be sent out to licensees as reference guides and would become useful manuals for Industrial Light & Magic, where some of the artwork influenced details in Episodes I and II." - P. 36 Star Wars Insider (#68 )

Take a wild guess what that means. As many of you know I have taken the stance of living with ICS while not accepting it. This changes things completely. ICS just got a level of standing much higher then I ever imagined and has become a part of the Canon level. To do this Lucas or the people in charge had to agree with it. Furthermore, it means the SW galaxy as I saw it from the EU (specificaly the novels) is not considered as high. I have my own personal view on what SW ought to be, but I recognize what the creators intend.

In that sense I concede the VS debates when it comes to the issue of firepower (one of the more well known points of the VS community). Not even the highest figures that I would consider remotely possible come anywhere near SW except in unusual circumstances or plot of the week enemies. I still think these figures are absurdly high, but this is what the creators intended. Of course I also think Culture level technology is absurd, but thats besides the point.

Take this for what you will. It took a fair amount of effort to swallow my pride like this. Many of you have known me for a while, through my better times and through the not so good ones. Simply put I accept that SW has yet another critical advantage (firepower) over ST and this is from the creators and owners of the series making these decisions. I must abide by what they say, and as such I am doing so.

I'm not signing off from the VS debates, there are still plenty of angles to look at with unique situations. There is also plenty of fun in theorizing. I just had to make this public knowledge so people understand my take on recent events.

Now, if anyone even thinks about gloating I will hunt you down and make you regret it, I shit you not. This is a very serious topic for me and because of how long I have been part of the VS community it has become personal and emotional for me.

This is really puts you on a higher( and much at that) ranking of Trekkie debators. Even when I read your part of the Hate mail section I thought to myself 'Well, he seemed like he was able to support what he said'(note this was when I was a more rabid warsie, before the forum.

[Iceberg]

Now, if anyone even thinks about gloating I will hunt you down and make you regret it, I shit you not. This is a very serious topic for me and because of how long I have been part of the VS community it has become personal and emotional for me.

<joking><NelsonMuntz>HA HA!</NelsonMuntz></joking>

Seriously, you're one of the few pro-ST debaters I really respect, and one of the few who actually makes me think on a regular basis.

You held on as long as you could, and surrendered gracefully when the war was over (unlike a certain dumbass who will probably ten years from now be hunkered down in a dorm room full of his stained Star Trek models).

Sir, I salute you. *SALUTE*

[taz]

My god, do you see the ass kicking Darkstar is getting at spacebattles?

I may have to change my opinion of that place...

'Tis very funny.

[Alyeska]

This is really puts you on a higher( and much at that) ranking of Trekkie debators. Even when I read your part of the Hate mail section I thought to myself 'Well, he seemed like he was able to support what he said'(note this was when I was a more rabid warsie, before the forum.

Thank you. Out of all this I acknowledge defeat yet I am still retaining my position in Trek. You can still count on me to side with Trek when possible and I will always be there to stop others from tearing it down to absurdly low levels. And thanks for the mention on Mikes page. That was as much a learning experience as anything else. Probably the single major event that catapulted me into a known figure in the VS community.

[Alyeska]

I was never one to make that claim. I heard it from others, but never repeated it myself. I wouldn't be surprised if Saxton was inspired or what not by talking with you, but that is a totaly different matter because its just someone using helpful information from another. No, I don't believe you intentionaly got high end figures put in ICS, I never did.

Then I formally apologize.

Heh, never thought I'd see the day when we made a truce. Then again I seem to never be able to maintain a feud with anyone. Anyway, its good to be past that point. I to must apologize Poe, I didn't help the situation with how I reacted to you.

[Rightous Fist Of Heaven]

Yet to Alyeska, i think people here have summed it up pretty well. I have known you for quite long now allready since i signed on the SB.com soon three years ago. I know how hard it is to admit that you have been wrong,
me being a person who often finds it all but impossible to say that i was
wrong by holding on to a point which i believed to be right. It takes strength of will and courage to publicly admit being wrong, but admitting being wrong does not in any way descent the worth of your debating skills unlike people like Dorkstar imply. Completely the opposite, it raises the respect people have at you and when you make a point in a debate you will be listened because people know you are a person who can admit being wrong if that is the case.
I'll allways remember the debates at SB.com with ya, especially the often hilarious B5 vs. ST debates and the fast paced, complicated GCS vs. ISD debates (im Light Soldier there since i dont use the same name here)

I too extend my salute to you. You have truly been a bastion of Trek.

[Ghost Rider]

Bravo...like DS stated, your concession is your own affair but it's nice to see people pelt DS even more because YOU said it.

It honestly does good to see them slam him more when a respected Trek fan accepts things versus all the pounding he recieves from pro-Wars.

Nice to see you drive a nail into that coffin of his.

[Howedar]

Holy smokes! This day has seen the end of the ICS as EU material and will soon see the end of Darkstar

[SirNitram]

Aly, I've said it a few times, but you confirmed my suspicions: You are one of the best Pro-Trek debators, because while you are prideful(Yet aren't we all?), you are honest. And so, in the manner which two warriors once saluted one another for valour after a duel, I salute you. I knew it took balls of steel to overcome your own pride and post that.

DS-bashing, however, goes in the Hall Of Shame. Mind the flushing sound.

[Alyeska]

Aly, I've said it a few times, but you confirmed my suspicions: You are one of the best Pro-Trek debators, because while you are prideful(Yet aren't we all?), you are honest. And so, in the manner which two warriors once saluted one another for valour after a duel, I salute you. I knew it took balls of steel to overcome your own pride and post that.

DS-bashing, however, goes in the Hall Of Shame. Mind the flushing sound.

As I said, Pride goeth before the fall. At least in DSs case. I swallowed my pride and simply stated the truth. I must admit from a detached stand point that this has been a real learning experience. You have to examine things at a core level. When I was faced with ICS truly being canon, I had to face something that I had tried avoiding for a very long time. My personal opinion of SW differs from those who are in charge of SW.

And yes, it took courage, so to speak. I am appreciative that everyone here understands what it took to do this and just what it meant.

Everyone, thank you for the support. HOWEVER, don't expect me to stay away from people bashing Trek. I might have conceded the VS debates, but I am still a Trekkie.

[NecronLord]

Even my respect for Alyeska has grown.

[CNS Sarajevo]

Just wanted to say, I may be a lurker, but I know class when I see it. Great post, Alyeska.

[Dalton]

Time Travel debate split off into another thread here. Darkstar stuff moved to the HOS as per Administrative Mandate.

[Master of Ossus]

This is really puts you on a higher( and much at that) ranking of Trekkie debators. Even when I read your part of the Hate mail section I thought to myself 'Well, he seemed like he was able to support what he said'(note this was when I was a more rabid warsie, before the forum.

Thank you. Out of all this I acknowledge defeat yet I am still retaining my position in Trek. You can still count on me to side with Trek when possible and I will always be there to stop others from tearing it down to absurdly low levels. And thanks for the mention on Mikes page. That was as much a learning experience as anything else. Probably the single major event that catapulted me into a known figure in the VS community.

Alyeska, anyone can be wrong. It takes a VERY special, courageous individual to admit it when he is. I may as well jump on the bandwagon and tell you how much I respect your integrity, regardless of what you are arguing, and I wish you the best of luck in all of the debates you will no doubt enjoy in the future.

[The Albino Raven]

wow, I really wish I had been here to witness these debates that arent riddled with flames. Oh well, I guess I have showed up just at the end of this massive prize fight. My respect goes to all the people in this thread who have maintained honor, dignity, and respect to someone with the kind of courage Alyeska displayed.