Thermodynamics and the Matrix (no Reloaded Spoilers)

Starscream · Post by **Starscream** » 2003-05-17 02:43pm

It's like comparing your average fart to a natural gas pipeline ( this discounts Bevis and Butthead's ability to produce thermonuclear farts.)

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-05-17 04:21pm

DPDarkPrimus wrote:
Admiral Valdemar wrote:
DPDarkPrimus wrote:This is why Morpheus says "combined with a form of fusion" to explain how the machines generate power.
Which as I pointed out in the article, is like asking a 747 pilot what powers the plane and he reponds "an elastic band combined with 4 gas turbines". Guess which gets the plane off the ground.
Note my usage of smilies.

No sweat, I was just pointing out the fallacy in other people defending the Matrix's power supply.

Starscream · Post by **Starscream** » 2003-05-18 11:16pm

Here's another question, how do the humans power their hover ships, city, etc?

Queeb Salaron · Post by **Queeb Salaron** » 2003-05-18 11:34pm

Starscream wrote:Here's another question, how do the humans power their hover ships, city, etc?

Well, it was a tossup in the beginning between Duracell and Energizer, but I think Morpheus makes some strange illusion to "Coppertop," so I think we can safely assume that the bunny went back to his Easter Eggs.

Either that, or they push them along with their feet a la Flintstones.

C'mon now... It's a MOVIE.

NapoleonGH · Post by **NapoleonGH** » 2003-05-18 11:53pm

well there is fusion, plus geothermal, considering that Zion is 4 miles underground afterall, that probably gives it a fair amount of access to geothermal heat

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-05-18 11:55pm

Maybe someone could explain why the machines needed the sun. Did the architects of the great "Monty Burns Sun-Block" plan have a brain fart? It's the humans that need the sun, not the machines!

The movie's quality notwithstanding, it's a scientifically absurd plot premise. The only way to combine human-generated energy with fusion would be to use the human-generated energy as a trigger for the fusion, but there's simply not enough of it, even from billions of humans.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2003-05-19 12:08am

The easiest answer, I think, is to simply say Morpheus didn't know what the hell he was talking about. I can't go any further into my theory without giving away spoilers for the second movie.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-05-19 12:32am

Some have theorised that the enormous complexity of regulating fusion would require something with the speed and multitasking ability of the human brain, such that the humans are being used as control computers for the fusion generators.

I think this is bullshit, since getting fusion is a brute force process not billions of little manipulations -- its about pumping enough energy in and keeping it there, while not melting yourself at the same time.

Towlie · Post by **Towlie** » 2003-05-19 12:33am

Havent seen Matrix2 yet, but maybe it would make more sense if what the machines were really using was human BRAIN power as in computing power instead of energy. Maybe the machines have had trouble building new equipment or have inferior designs compared to the human brain. Networking human brains allows the machine to expand its storage and memory capacity. In addition, the Matrix might be an offshoot of Microsoft, continually requiring more hardware just to keep up.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-05-19 01:07am

NapoleonGH wrote:well there is fusion, plus geothermal, considering that Zion is 4 miles underground afterall, that probably gives it a fair amount of access to geothermal heat

So? In order to extract heat energy from a warm place, you need heat exchangers which can dump it into a cool place. That's why the critical variables in heat extraction efficiency are T(hot) and T(cold). Ideally, you want T(hot) to be much higher than T(cold) in order to extract energy, and the larger this difference is, the more efficient your process will be.

Problem: if your entire facility is 4 miles underground, your T(hot) and your T(cold) are roughly the same, so you can't extract anything. And if you pump up the hot working fluid to the surface where it's cooler, then you have to supply energy equal to the gravitational potential energy change of moving something up 4 miles against the pull of gravity, which is going to nullify any heat energy extraction gains.

That's why geothermal is only effective when you have high-temperature underground reserves very close to the surface, eg- in Hawaii. The problem is that enviro-nuts hear about how it works on top of a fucking active volcano and assume that it must work everywhere else, so if nobody's using it, then it must be due to nefarious suppression from the Evil Industrial-Military Complex.

Ultimately, if they have reliable net-gain nuclear fusion, they need nothing else. And the humans are going to be a big net-loss situation.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-05-19 01:27am

I its possibul the AI simply lost the information on why it was maintaining the Matrix; it might originally have been some form of interrogation system to let them directly access human memories or something like that. A human EMP might have screwed up the system and left the AI unable to determine the point of it but also making it too concerned to risk shutting it down. It might just use it as a testbed to devolope and test better AI's.

Meanwhile Zion doesn’t even know what year it is and may just have theories on why the AI maintains the Matrix.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-05-19 01:29am

Sea Skimmer wrote:I suppose its possibul the AI simply lost the information on why it was maintaining the Matrix; it might originally have been some form of interrogation system to let them directly access human memories or something like that. A human EMP might have screwed up the system and left the AI unable to determine the point of it but also making it too concerned to risk shutting it down.

Meanwhile Zion doesn’t even know what year it is and may just have theories on why the AI maintains the Matrix.

Even if both sides are ignorant of the true history, that does not excuse the inconceivable stupidity required for them to believe that their own explanation makes sense. How could they design and build these high-tech hovercraft without knowing anything about elementary thermodynamics?

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-05-19 01:46am

Darth Wong wrote: Even if both sides are ignorant of the true history, that does not excuse the inconceivable stupidity required for them to believe that their own explanation makes sense. How could they design and build these high-tech hovercraft without knowing anything about elementary thermodynamics?

We've got an ample number of fundies in the modern world that will deny science when they prefer another explanation. Morpheus might simply believe that explanation while others believe other things and some just think, "well it must be important because it's so big."

Though I also think its just a case of ignorant writers.

Drooling Iguana · Post by **Drooling Iguana** » 2003-05-19 02:23am

Darth Wong wrote:Even if both sides are ignorant of the true history, that does not excuse the inconceivable stupidity required for them to believe that their own explanation makes sense. How could they design and build these high-tech hovercraft without knowing anything about elementary thermodynamics?

Maybe the hovercraft was a leftover from the pre-Matrix days. The humans know how to fly it, but not how to build it.

And it makes sense that they might not have much of a grasp of basic physics. They did spend most of their lives in a computer-generated fantasy world, after all. Not the best place to study physics.

Shogoki · Post by **Shogoki** » 2003-05-19 05:54am

Admiral Valdemar wrote:
DPDarkPrimus wrote:
Admiral Valdemar wrote: Which as I pointed out in the article, is like asking a 747 pilot what powers the plane and he reponds "an elastic band combined with 4 gas turbines". Guess which gets the plane off the ground.
Note my usage of smilies.
No sweat, I was just pointing out the fallacy in other people defending the Matrix's power supply.

Well, if you ask the elastic band it will tell you it's function is of utmost importance.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-05-19 08:45am

Drooling Iguana wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Even if both sides are ignorant of the true history, that does not excuse the inconceivable stupidity required for them to believe that their own explanation makes sense. How could they design and build these high-tech hovercraft without knowing anything about elementary thermodynamics?
Maybe the hovercraft was a leftover from the pre-Matrix days. The humans know how to fly it, but not how to build it.

And it makes sense that they might not have much of a grasp of basic physics. They did spend most of their lives in a computer-generated fantasy world, after all. Not the best place to study physics.

I'd gather that too, the Animatrix shows hover cars using the special electromagnetic levitation discs you see on the Osiris and Nebuchandezzar.

I'd still vouce for humans being a cheap and self-replicating memory and computing tool, it would explain having the Matrix too to keep their minds ticking over, but there is still the need for food which can't happen given the lack of a sun anymore.

JodoForce · Post by **JodoForce** » 2003-05-19 09:52am

I'd always thought the energy the Matrix is drawing out from humans is Life Energy a la Dragon Ball.

Other than that...

I suppose the energy required to grow plants and livestock to feed the humans is supplied by Nature and thus can be considered 'out of the loop'--it would be a form of biomass energy utilization, but it would have been a lot more efficient if they just burnt up the plants for fuel or even burnt up the humans for fuel

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-05-19 09:56am

JodoForce wrote:I'd always thought the energy the Matrix is drawing out from humans is Life Energy a la Dragon Ball.

Other than that...

I suppose the energy required to grow plants and livestock to feed the humans is supplied by Nature and thus can be considered 'out of the loop'--it would be a form of biomass energy utilization, but it would have been a lot more efficient if they just burnt up the plants for fuel or even burnt up the humans for fuel

The sun is blocked out, so growing food would be quite difficult without a major power input. Not to mention the energy costs of processing it.

Zoink · Post by **Zoink** » 2003-05-19 10:17am

I have not seen reloaded yet, but some random attempts at creativity:

Is it possible that the machines use the matrix as a sort of processor, a "borg" collective if you will? Perhaps existing on multiple 'network' levels; with the lower, less secure level, being the matrix (the CPU and "power source"), and a higher level being used for the machines.

Perhaps the machine AIs were build on some sort of futuristic internet, where people plugged themselves into this net, powered with the people's own brains. The military might have had its own use for it, using some kind of solar-powered "bio-unit" to provide interconnection between machines using this same network. With the sun gone, perhaps the machines still needed humans to power this network, while using fusion power for actual physical work.

Xon · Post by **Xon** » 2003-05-19 11:09am

Towlie wrote:In addition, the Matrix might be an offshoot of Microsoft, continually requiring more hardware just to keep up.

Considering their software security...

Come on!

The physics engine they use should be completely unchangable to the end user(ie humans plugged into the matrix).

And they should easily trangulate the broadcast signal!

More to the point why the hell do they even allow remote access from a braodcasting network?!? It should all be hardwired into the pod holding people.

Then there is the entire machines disconnecting humans from the network and not killing them!!!!!! bit.

Drooling Iguana · Post by **Drooling Iguana** » 2003-05-19 12:08pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote:I'd still vouce for humans being a cheap and self-replicating memory and computing tool, it would explain having the Matrix too to keep their minds ticking over, but there is still the need for food which can't happen given the lack of a sun anymore.

Fusion-powered hydroponics. Not that hard, really.

Crayz9000 · Post by **Crayz9000** » 2003-05-19 12:14pm

ggs wrote:And they should easily trangulate the broadcast signal!

They do that, at least. What else do you think the Sentinals home in on?

Sir Sirius · Post by **Sir Sirius** » 2003-05-19 01:29pm

The Nebuchadnezzar's dedication plaque Reads:

MarkIIIL N#11

NebuchadnezzaR

Made in the U.S.
Year2060

#I haven't been able to figure out what this says. It looks as if there is a screw or something there.

So it definately is Pre-war.

Starscream · Post by **Starscream** » 2003-05-19 03:07pm

The point of my question was basically that the human ships and city get their power from somewhere, and it's probably not using human batteries, and that it obviously provides a great deal of energy for them. So why don't the machine use whatever the humans are using?

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-05-19 03:12pm

Starscream wrote:The point of my question was basically that the human ships and city get their power from somewhere, and it's probably not using human batteries, and that it obviously provides a great deal of energy for them. So why don't the machine use whatever the humans are using?

Maybe they are. They could be running a couple extra cables from the Machine power source and stealing power.

Makes it more ironic.