In Defense of the Federation

[TrekWarsie]

I'd develop Gravity well technology and build a few Trilithium torpedoes and send in a remote ship into the system where the Imperial fleet will emerge. As soon as the fleet emerges, activate the gravity well projectors, fire the Trilithium torpedo into the sun, and sit back and watch as the Imperial fleet is massacarred. Then I'd use Transphasic torpedoes on any of the surviving ships or any ships that enter afterwards. I'd then develop the wornhole sealing weapon from DS9 and close that portal before the Empire sends in another fleet.

[consequences]

*cough cough, bullshit, cough*
First, evidence that the Feds are within five years of developing orking Grav-well tech.
Second, evidence that the Imps would drop in system close enough that they couldn't turn around and accelerate out of system, at least to the point that their shields can take the damage.
Third, proof that the Imps wouldn't keep a reserve force to jump in on anyone using grav-wells like that, and that they wouldn't be able to eliminate the obstacles in the minutes it would take for the supernova wave to reach the trapped Imp vessels.
Fourth, what reason do we have to believe that Transphasic Torpedos would do any appreciable damage to Imperial Warships?

[beyond hope]

If I knew what was coming, I'd spend those 5 years rounding up every ship I could, slapping a phase cloak and an M-5 style computer on, and then load them all up with as much antimatter as the Federation could produce in 5 years. In the mean time I'd also have scout ships out looking for some place far, far away that at least some of the Federation's population could be relocated to and hope and pray that the ship-bombs would hold off the Empire long enough for at least some of the populace to escape.

[Xon]

Uhm, *reactor-grade* plutonium has a critical mass of about 35 kilos.

So?

~10^24 kg of weapons grade plutonium should make really big explosion.

[Striderteen]

So, you *can't* use that much plutonium in a single bomb. Anything over critical mass will spontaneously detonate, which is the whole reason you can't build megapower fission weapons no matter how much material you have.

[beyond hope]

So, you *can't* use that much plutonium in a single bomb. Anything over critical mass will spontaneously detonate, which is the whole reason you can't build megapower fission weapons no matter how much material you have.

methinks that was the point

[Enigma]

I'd go with reverse engineering every single lost tech and WMDs and then mass produce it. If I knew where the Imperials would appear then I'd mine the system, just to surprise them then detonate a trilithium torp that would be inside a shuttle that's equipped with metaphasic shielding. If any survives, then attack them with transphasic torps and the probes from the Echo Papa 607. Then I'd send fireships loaded with high grade antimatter and have them ram the Imp ships.

If not, I'd French kiss my ass good-bye.

[Shroom Man 777]

Hmmm....... I know......

Mold an entire planetoid into the image of Palpatine or something.

If not, well I'd spend most of my resources developing WMD technology and making most large scale ships into kamikaze bombers.

And also evacuate the populace.

Arm my redshirts decently.

Mine the entire place.

Get help from anyone, Borg, Klingon, Romulan, Dominion........ ANYONE.

Prepare to turn any Empire conquered system's sun into a nova.

[Thunderfire]

The feds are dead if they don't know the strength/weakness of their
enemy. I think telepaths are best. Telepathic powers could be used
to cause alot of confusion among the imperials.

[Gandalf]

1. I improve relations between other AQ powers, and if possible, alert the Dominion, if worse comes to worse, they may help, as they tend to think "long term".(DS9- Statistical Probabilities)

2. Draft all spare Federation people into a "labour force", then start a campaign to industralise the Federation.

3. Convert all Federation ships into fighting machines, take out the shit-house warp cores, and up the weapons power.

4. Dig up and improve the lost techs.

5. Shit myself when my upgraded fleet gets wiped from existance.

[Patrick Ogaard]

I mulled this scenario over in my mind, and I arrived at a startling conclusion: the Federation could actually pull it off. Five years is almost certainly not enough time, but ten years should be almost adequate, and twenty years ideal.

Now, assuming that everyone's calmed down after snorting Mountain Dew across keyboards and cackling uncontrollably at the sheer stupidity of the Federation being able to hold its own, here goes. And all it takes to win is for the Federation to employ the things it's never used (except when Kirk was around): hard-nosed pragmatism and its own established canon technologies.

It is Trek canon that the Federation has the Galactic Empire beat in one significant area of endeavor: cloning technology. TNG's Up the Long Ladder and, more importantly, DS9's A Man Alone demonstrate that the cloning technologies available to the Federation stand head and shoulders above those available to the Galactic Empire. Starting with some protein residue scraped off a matter reclamation chute, Bashir had a clone ready-grown to adulthood within about 3 days. Using the speed-teaching methods employed by McCoy to restore Uhura's knowledge after her memories were unraveled by the Nomad probe, pertinent skills could be imparted within weeks. The fact that Ibudan's first clone was able to book a holosuite massage program, and that the second clone was referred to as having gained consciousness and beginning a new life, indicates that the clone either carries over basic memories from the donor (unlikely), or that there are suitable speed-teaching methods available to quickly instruct and socialize the clone.

Ibudan, a novice working off information provided by a prison buddy doing time for "triphasic" cloning experiments, was able to produce a clone of himself while en route in a two-bunk cabin on a merchant vessel. Odo's check of Ibudan's itinerary appears to indicate that the passage time, and thus clone growth time, was about 3 Bajoran days (or 78 hours).

Even ysalamiri-protected spaarti cloning cylinders can not produce clones in under 20 days, and are rare things to boot.

Using a suitable set of donors for the clones, and using the long-established cold sleep or stasis technologies used by Khan's supermen, the mortally ill old Earth humans form TNG's The Neutral Zone, etc., entire regiments, divisions, even full armies could be kept in storage at nominal warehousing costs. That would allow the Federation to seriously overproduce troops and starship crews.

Considering the ease of clone production as demonstrated in A Man Alone, any small starship could, just as a minor sideline, have its sickbay producing two or three spare crewmembers every week. A spare cargo bay filled with appropriate equipment could produce entire platoons or even company strength units on a weekly basis, so that a troopship so equipped could transit between outlying colonies and simply beam down replacement companies while beaming up processed biomatter to feed a new crop of clones. For that matter, outposts and starbases could just as easily set up their own cloning facilities.

Given that available cloning technology, the complete avoidance of which is apparently rooted in irrational reactions to some nasty historical incidents, the Federation could make good one of its major shortfalls: available manpower. Suitable men and women of various humanoid species would have to be chosen as donors, with Dr. Julian Bashir being right at the top of the list of candidates if his genetic enhancements prove stable. Having an elite corps of soldiers with enhanced memories and superhuman reaction speeds and coordination would be a good thing.

The use of that cloning technology would also allow massive expansion of the Federation's laughably inadequate industrial base. With regular infusions of adequately trained clone cadres, the Utopia Planitia shipyards, as one example, could be expanded to encompass the entire planet Mars. This would require an appropriate clone-supported expansion of the underlying infrastructure, and mining teams would be stripping asteroids out of the asteroid belt as quickly as possible.

Initial emphasis would have to be on the mass production of well-established starship designs, swelling the fleet strength tremendously. Even if they prove incapable of standing up to the enemy except in overwhelming numbers, they will provide the transport capacity necessary to improve the Federation-wide infrastructure.

Parallel with this, new ship designs would have to be developed. A high-volume rounded wedge with embedded warp nacelles would be a good choice for the basic hull form of capital ships. These ships would be dedicated warships, with massive arrays of phaser strips for defense against fighters, turreted dual pulse phaser cannon and turreted twin rapid-fire torpedo launchers, massive arrays of multiple forward-firing torpedo launchers, and heavy energy cannon derived from the infamous deflector dish cannon. Power systems and shield generators are dimensioned so as to allow all weapons to be used simultaneously and allow much higher levels of shielding.

Advanced conventionally designed ship classes like the Sovereign and Intrepid could be retained in full produciton as a fast response element of the fleet. Production of Defiants could be stepped up to provide heavy attack ships and convoy escorts. And Galaxy class ships would naturally provide the cargo cruisers and troop ships.

Ultimately, the fact that the Federation, if it really wanted to and got over its perceptual blind spot, could churn out trained clones by the thousands and millions every week would be a major factor. The added personnel strength allows a corresponding expansion of the industrial base and military capabilities.

With a great deal of luck, the Federation could be at a level of military capability equivalent to an impoverished, underdeveloped Galactic Empire backwater like the Tion Hegemony within five years. With ten to twenty years of lead time, the Federation might be able to stand up to an actual Sector Fleet long enough to be able to sue for peace.

After 20 years, every major inhabited world of the Federation should be at the center of a comprehensive network of defense satellites, orbital fortresses, shipyards, minefields, orbital pickets and system defense fleets. No single world could withstand a truly determined push by the Sector Fleet's forces, but the fleet would have its nose bloodied in each attack. The comparatively agonizing slowness of warp drive compared to hyperdrive means that defense fleets will have to be prepositioned in the same systems as the planets and facilities they are protecting. This means hundreds of capital ships and thousands of fighters and attack ships to protect any planet of reasonable significance.

[JodoForce]

... going by your scenario, the Feds should be able to repel any reasonable scale of ground invasion

But I still say their space force is fucked.

[Patrick Ogaard]

... going by your scenario, the Feds should be able to repel any reasonable scale of ground invasion

But I still say their space force is fucked.

Well, yeah, every major engagement would be a loss for the Federation. The only question is how costly the victory could be made for the Sector Fleet. And if the Sector Fleet for some reason took along something like an Executor ...

Essentially, the idea is to make ultimate victory too expensive. That may well mean the expenditure of thousands of starships per ISD.

The real problem is that there is no realistic chance that an organization with the track record of the Federation would change tracks so drastically. Even in the face of near-certain Dominion victory, the option of Starfleet using cloned personnel was never so much as mentioned.

Federation culture is full of these technology of the week things that, under suspension of disbelief, can best be explained by conceptual blind spots and taboos based on severe historical trauma.

Within the Federation, which abhors violence utterly, the summary disintegration of one's own nearly-grown clone is not an actionable offense, as demonstrated by Riker and Dr. Pulaski in Up the Long Ladder. Under Bajoran law, on the other hand, it is considered murder (per DS9's A Man Alone).

Despite the Federation's tolerance for and acceptance of even the most idiotic physical alterations of aliens, such as the suicidal, Borg-like computer integration of the Bynars, Federation humans have an almost maliciously enforced taboo against genetic optimization or adjustment of humans. Fear of competitive pressures, and Eugenics Wars supermen running wild, obviously scarred Federation humanity deeply. Thus the strenuous effort to keep everyone very beige and laid back and deeply noncompetitive.

Despite countless wars and hostile encounters with warlike polities as technologically advanced as themselves and often more advanced, Starfleet still insists it is not a military force and refuses to face reality. Instead, it continues to insist that truly advanced polities would by definition be incapable of violence. Starfleet consistently places hundreds of its own civilian dependents in mortal danger aboard major warships, refuses to provide protective garrison forces for colonies, and has tactically incompetent and poorly equipped security guards instead of an actual ground combat force.

Despite having had access to advanced robotics technologies for centuries, the Federation of TNG and DS9 has a sum total of one functioning android (plus another masquerading as human). No one seems to see the potential of simplified, non-sapient androids as readily programmable, expendable workers or soldiers. There is no such hesitation when it comes to potentially sapient programs, so long as they are holographic and forcefield projections. That's a deeply, thoroughly insane attitude.

The Federation, despite having resources adequate to prevent or at least mitigate such events, happily sits by and watches less technologically advanced species totter into extinction. Entire planetary populations die in agony and horror as natural disasters sterilize their worlds and a Starfleet captain sits by passively and honors their memory and the principles of the Prime Directive. A directive against stupid meddling makes sense, a directive that allows one to freely ignore the suffering of other sapients just because they have not perfected warp coils does not.

Everything about the Federation seems to indicate that it is the product of too much accumulated trauma for any kind of healthy society to bear. The Federation is a twisted little bonsai that should have been a majestic, towering oak.

[NecronLord]

So, you *can't* use that much plutonium in a single bomb. Anything over critical mass will spontaneously detonate, which is the whole reason you can't build megapower fission weapons no matter how much material you have.

methinks that was the point

Yes, The genesis wave will hopefully propagate faster than the fission reaction.

[Shroom Man 777]

... going by your scenario, the Feds should be able to repel any reasonable scale of ground invasion

But I still say their space force is fucked.

Well, yeah, every major engagement would be a loss for the Federation. The only question is how costly the victory could be made for the Sector Fleet. And if the Sector Fleet for some reason took along something like an Executor ...

Essentially, the idea is to make ultimate victory too expensive. That may well mean the expenditure of thousands of starships per ISD.

The real problem is that there is no realistic chance that an organization with the track record of the Federation would change tracks so drastically. Even in the face of near-certain Dominion victory, the option of Starfleet using cloned personnel was never so much as mentioned.

Federation culture is full of these technology of the week things that, under suspension of disbelief, can best be explained by conceptual blind spots and taboos based on severe historical trauma.

Within the Federation, which abhors violence utterly, the summary disintegration of one's own nearly-grown clone is not an actionable offense, as demonstrated by Riker and Dr. Pulaski in Up the Long Ladder. Under Bajoran law, on the other hand, it is considered murder (per DS9's A Man Alone).

Despite the Federation's tolerance for and acceptance of even the most idiotic physical alterations of aliens, such as the suicidal, Borg-like computer integration of the Bynars, Federation humans have an almost maliciously enforced taboo against genetic optimization or adjustment of humans. Fear of competitive pressures, and Eugenics Wars supermen running wild, obviously scarred Federation humanity deeply. Thus the strenuous effort to keep everyone very beige and laid back and deeply noncompetitive.

Despite countless wars and hostile encounters with warlike polities as technologically advanced as themselves and often more advanced, Starfleet still insists it is not a military force and refuses to face reality. Instead, it continues to insist that truly advanced polities would by definition be incapable of violence. Starfleet consistently places hundreds of its own civilian dependents in mortal danger aboard major warships, refuses to provide protective garrison forces for colonies, and has tactically incompetent and poorly equipped security guards instead of an actual ground combat force.

Despite having had access to advanced robotics technologies for centuries, the Federation of TNG and DS9 has a sum total of one functioning android (plus another masquerading as human). No one seems to see the potential of simplified, non-sapient androids as readily programmable, expendable workers or soldiers. There is no such hesitation when it comes to potentially sapient programs, so long as they are holographic and forcefield projections. That's a deeply, thoroughly insane attitude.

The Federation, despite having resources adequate to prevent or at least mitigate such events, happily sits by and watches less technologically advanced species totter into extinction. Entire planetary populations die in agony and horror as natural disasters sterilize their worlds and a Starfleet captain sits by passively and honors their memory and the principles of the Prime Directive. A directive against stupid meddling makes sense, a directive that allows one to freely ignore the suffering of other sapients just because they have not perfected warp coils does not.

Everything about the Federation seems to indicate that it is the product of too much accumulated trauma for any kind of healthy society to bear. The Federation is a twisted little bonsai that should have been a majestic, towering oak.

You ought to make a essay or something.

[Iceberg]

As CINCSTARFLEET, my defense will be ultimately insufficient, no matter what I do. If I'm facing a sector group, the entire Federation Starfleet doesn't have enough firepower to match them. My best capital ships are barely equal to the Empire's medium frigates - anything from a light destroyer on up is far too much for a Federation starship to handle one-on-one, and heavy destroyers require a battlegroup commitment to crack. My best bet for the survival of the UFP in any form is to put up a spirited, valiant and aggressive defense, within the rules of conventional warfare.

This means no "self-destructive surrender" options, no scorched-earth combat and no dumbass superweapons. If I do stupid things like that, my memory will be spit upon as the man who thrust the galaxy into darkness. If, on the other hand, I fight my hardest and then surrender with honor when the time comes, I may procure survival and possibly eventual liberation for the UFP. I can't see any benefits to fighting the Empire dirty - remember that Osama bin Laden predicted that 11 September 2001 would bring America to her knees, and instead it filled us with a righteous fury against someone who would strike our homeland in such a craven fashion. The Empire is far more ruthless than the United States of America - they will not fold, but instead will annihilate some of the UFP to make an example, and enslave the rest.

[Striderteen]

I realize that the Federation would never be that smart, which is why I specified it in the scenario. Call it an alternate universe Federation that has some common sense to it.


My plan would be to optimize the Federation for massive-scale ground and space guerilla warfare by issuing the following orders:

1. The Prime Directive is hereby repealed.

2. The Starfleet Diplomatic Corps is hereby ordered to contact *all* known civilizations (including those currently hostile to the Federation) and attempt to establish a unified military alliance against the threat outlined by Q.

3. Section 31 is hereby ordered to initiate development and full-scale production of chemical, biological and nanite weaponry.

4. Microsoft, Intel, AMD and all other computer companies are hereby ordered to form an industry alliance known as Cyberdyne Systems.

5. Cyberdyne Systems is hereby directed to kidnap Lieutenant Commander Data, reverse-engineer him, and initiate the development and construction of combat and assassin droids based on the same chassis, as well as larger heavy-weapons variants, under the code-name "Project Terminator".

6. The Starfleet Weapons Development Group is hereby ordered to develop the M-1 Phaser Assault Rifle. This weapon shall be based upon the assault rifles of the late twentieth century and shall include a shoulder stock, manual iron sights, sustained automatic fire capability, an underslung photon grenade launcher and an external power cell designed for rapid reloading during combat. Preliminary testing of the M-1 shall be accomplished by arming the design team with the prototype rifles and locking them in a small room with several Borg Drones; operational field testing is to be done (again, by the design team itself) in the Holodeck against a simulated force of twentieth century United States Marines, with the safety systems off. The replicator patterns for the M-1 Phaser Assault Rifle shall be provided to all Federation worlds and ships, as well as released to the general public via the Internet.

7. All Federation member worlds are hereby ordered to begin immediate construction of orbital and surface defense systems and to train all able-bodied citizens as an irregular militia force oriented towards hit-and-run guerilla warfare against superior forces equipped with armor and air support. Orbital defenses are to consist of networks of space-based battle stations and minefields (preferably using Dominion self-replicating cloaked mine technology); surface defenses are to be based on those constructed by the Japanese during the Second World War and by the Vietnamese during the Vietnam War.

8. All Ambassador and Akira class vessels are directed to recruit all non-member worlds within Federation territory and assist them in preparing to resist invasion using the same guidelines as Federation member worlds.

9. All Intrepid, Nebula, and Galaxy class vessels are directed to report to the nearest shipyard facility for retrofitting. Said retrofit is to include removal of all non-combat equipment, replacement of crew cabins with simple tiered bunks, and installation of upgraded weapons systems including Type XII phaser banks, pulse phaser cannons, and expanded torpedo magazines with transphasic torpedo loadouts.

10. All new vessels and/or vessels currently under construction are to be redesigned for maximum combat capability. Primary armament shall be rapid-fire transphasic or trilithium torpedoes; phaser banks shall constitute secondary armament and be optimized for targetting large numbers of small ships using swarm or formation tactics.

11. The Treaty of Algeron is hereby repealed; all Starfleet warships are to be fitted with cloaking or phase-cloaking devices.

12. All older Starfleet vessels are to be refitted as suicide drones carrying antimatter bombs.

13. All large civilian vessels are to be drafted into Starfleet service and refitted as unmanned Q-ships / missile drones armed with as many rapid-fire photon or quantum torpedo tubes as possible.

[Ghost Rider]

And difference in firepower would make the sector group laugh.

I mean it's nice to come with strategies but the outcome would be sadly the same...

A single ISD is capable of taking on 200 Starfleet vessels(I mean GAT's or Bean calc are around here...and they give some horrifying thoughts of how many Federation ships it would require to take down a shield section of an ISD if it just stood there)

A sector group contains 24 of these vessel not including support craft...

I mean I say the Federation takes this as if the Borg were coming for the grand finale of all battles...but the outcome will not favor the federation short of surrender without the New Order scorching every inhabitable planet just to make a statement.

[Striderteen]

True, but a sector fleet doesn't have enough ground forces to occupy the entire Federation -- especially not against 24th century versions of the super-extensive fortification networks developed by the Japanese in WWII.

After my upgraded war fleet gets massacred in the opening engagement, I'll pull back and let the heavily fortified resistance forces wear down the Imperials while our ships run wolf pack hit-and-fade operations against their support ships and supply lines. We can't face them directly; we *can* wear them out and run them ragged.

[Ghost Rider]

Then they BDZ Vulcan, Bajor and not have a single Stormtrooper land on said planets when they feel it's becoming too much.

And how do you hit and fade a fleet that can move hundreds of times faster and have sensor that can detect you before you enter the system?

They aren't going run away with a bloody nose and cry if they can't occupy...they will then decide to adopt a more viscious stance and scorch a few major planets and show the folly of battle against them.

[Striderteen]

We'll definitely lose worlds to BDZ tactics once the Empire decides to play rough, but they *can't* BDZ everything -- they'll need the resources to resupply (as I recall, an ISD carries enough supplies for about a year).

It's going to be a nasty, nasty conflict with our casualties in the billions if not trillions -- but there *is* some chance. The Empire has overwhelming military strength, but they have limited manpower and no resupply.

[Iceberg]

The Empire doesn't need to BDZ you - once Starfleet is eliminated, they can just sit back, build the transfer device, and bury you once resupply is possible.

[Ghost Rider]

A year is almost all they would need to cover the entirity of the Federation...easily given they can criss cross quadrants of the galaxy in hours(TPM shows a disgusting rate of speed for the Hyperdrive...let alone ANH)

1. They have superior firepower/shields. One of their medium guns can destroy a top of the line crusier in one shot. It takes THOUSANDS of our shots to lower their shields.

2. They have a better FTL system. They could literally out manuver us in any arena.

3. They have better sensors. Coupled with slower FTL this becomes suicide to engae in any battle with their navy.

The only disadvantage they have is they are in a foriegn area...fine they send out probe droids...and bargin with the other empires for starmaps.

This is pitting a Roman colony vs a Modern Army in a unknown country...sure one side is limited in supplies...but has the firepower to obliterate anything you throw at it and the ability to laugh at what you throw at them.

Sure, if it goes far enough they may resort to Scorched Earth Tactics but you won't be around to claim victory.

[Striderteen]

Imperial Advantages:
- Massively superior firepower
- Massively superior mobility
- Ruthlessness

Imperial Disadvantages
- Lack of resupply / reinforcements
- Severely limited manpower


The Imperials' lack of resupply is what's going to stop them -- they're going to go through fuel pretty rapidly if they have to resort to mass BDZ tactics, and those same tactics would deny them the ability to use captured resources to reload.

I think an upgraded Federation war fleet using phase and regular cloaking would be powerful enough to form a reasonably effective stealth raider force; while they wouldn't be invisible to Imperial sensors, they *would* be a lot harder to detect than normal ships. I'm not talking a standing fleet engagement; I'm talking about warping in close, unloading some massive rapid-fire transphasic torpedo volleys, and then bugging out (or warping out for another strafing run). Such hit-and-run couldn't faze an ISD, but it should be sufficient to tear up their smaller ships -- they'd have to assign ISDs to convoy duty to stop us, and that would take a lot of pressure away from their main offensive thrust.

[Ghost Rider]

They can detect such emissions unless Warping is now invisbile regardless of cloaking.

Also proof BDZ operation take any substaional resources to undertake?

Only reason BDZ is a last resort is because it wastes a potentially useful planet not because it drains the ISD.

Plus...so what it take THOUSANDS of torpedos to damge an ISD...and it would take hundreds to effect lesser ships given that a Crusier in RoTJ were able to stand up against ISD in close combat for a few minutes.

Most ships except fighter practically laugh off most of the attacks the federation could accomplish...the power disparity is beyond outlandish...it's attacking a tank with a toothpick.