Christian Trap...

[XPViking]

neoolong,

And yet, some of it was wrong and that could be critical information that could be miscontrued. As well, I'm not implying that a regular person has to understand Hebrew and Greek in order to understand the Bible, but the person doing the translating should. You can base your moral system on translated documents (and trusting that the translator did a good job) or you can dig deeper and learn the language of the original documents and the language it will be translated into (say Hebrew into English or whatever). Not everyone has the time to do that though. If learning 2 or more languages was a requirement for learning about the Bible (or any other document purporting to be a basis for morality - I don't think all secular humanists spoke English as their first language but that's just a wild guess) then the availability would be reduced. As an extreme example, you might revert back to how things were back in the 10th C or so with monks (and their counterparts) being the keepers of knowledge.

In other words, you seem to think that doing a half-assed translation is good enough while I'm saying it isn't.

XPViking

[neoolong]

I understand what you're saying, but given information that the translations are wrong, if you want to base a moral system off of a book, you should do it yourself, or find a correct one.

[Queeb Salaron]

Jesus was his son, or so sayeth the Book. An Avatar would be God actually manifesting himself in some mortal form. Again, the Christian God seems singularly incapable of this.

It's generally believed by all Christians (though it was originally a Catholic idea) that Jesus WAS the embodiment of Christ, being both fully God and fully human at the same time. So yes, Jesus was an Avatar.

Did you mean "Jesus was the embodiment of God?" Because Christ is just another term for messiah. Christ coming the Greek word "Christus" meaning the anointed.

Right right. Brain fart.

[Queeb Salaron]

It is a subject of debate between different Christian denominations. And I believe that the Mormons even believe that Jesus was the brother of Satan, and that they become "gods" of their own planets in the next life (but that's another can of worms entirely)...

So would you be interested in a trinity vs separate entities thread? Or perhaps just part of this one?

As ugly as it would get with all the literary quotes, I'd be up for it.

[XPViking]

I understand what you're saying, but given information that the translations are wrong, if you want to base a moral system off of a book, you should do it yourself, or find a correct one.

If you do it yourself then you have to have a darn good grasp of the language. Sorry, but using a dictionary and some wimpy 24 hour learn-a-language phrase book won't cut it. So in most cases a person has to look for a correct translation. Unfortunately, something always seems to be lost when something is translated.

XPViking

[The Yosemite Bear]

Of course there's the whole other question of how would you know that it's really a message from up High?

from modern standpoint Jean of Orleans (Joan of Arc) sounds like a verifiable nutcase "The Archangel Micheal told me to kill the English and drive them from France"

[jegs2]

For those who wished to follow this thread, I transported parts of it to a Christian discussion board. What follows is one of the latest posts (Champion is debating with someone else here):

Originally posted by Champion
Thanks for your "moderate" reply.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You're welcome....friendly discussion is my aim. Anything less wouldn't serve either of us well, IMHO


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I imagine that it'd be the same way that we can tell that one of us is breaking the rules.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Okay. So how do you tell that?


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's just that since the religious are always saying he's "holy" and "just" etc. it seems that they are already judging God, only it's a positve judgement! If it is not permissible for us to "judge God", then why are you people doing so?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For the purposes of this discussion, let's not worry about what "the religious" think....I'd rather focus on what you think and feel about the topic. And I can't answer for others, anway .


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How is morality measure in any being? By their actions.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Good point. I can't be fully certain about which actions you consider God to have taken that were immoral. However, I can give some points as a parent that might clarify how I view those issues you might be looking at. (I find it's often very helpful, for me, to use my role as a parent to compare God's role in our lives.)

When my son was younger, he used to ask me questions that basically boiled down to, "How come YOU can do such-and-such, and I can't?" Sometimes I could provide a good answer for him--but the basic point was generally the same. "I can handle it, I am mature enough, I am--at this point in my life--knowledgable enough and responsible enough to do it. You simply aren't." Sometimes, the answer wasn't as easily explainable, and he was left with, "Because I know better. You'll simply have to trust that I know best and obey me." That sounds like a cop-out, but it's not. I don't know a parent yet that hasn't had to resort to this last at some point--either because of the child's lack of understand, or just because NO argument would be good enough to help the child accept the ruling.

God has to say the exact same thing to us, sometimes. And because we ARE children to Him (no matter HOW mature and knowledgable we feel we are), sometimes we just have to trust Him. Again, that's not a cop-out, but just exactly what He's called us to--faith. Over and over again, He calls us to faith, to trust *shrug* We might not like it, we may feel it's unfair, but there it is. He wants faith.



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If the Bible never made any claims about God's morality but just said outright that such concepts are beyond him, then I'd have less of a problem;
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Job makes some points along these lines--the seeming unfairness of life (if you haven't read this book, I'd recommend it; it has some good points that I think you'd find helpful in answering your line of thinking). Beginning in Job 9, you see Job making points about it all. and in Job 21:22-26, he kind of sums it up, for me anyway, and says:

22 "Can anyone teach knowledge to God, since he judges even the highest?
23 One man dies in full vigor, completely secure and at ease,
24 his body well nourished, his bones rich with marrow.
25 Another man dies in bitterness of soul, never having enjoyed anything good.
26 Side by side they lie in the dust, and worms cover them both.

In chapter 38, God answers all of Job's points in a way that I think fits exactly what you are saying here (maybe--I hope so, anyway ). He continues his reply all the way through chapter 41. Basically, what God says is, "Who are you to question Me?" . Not a very satisfying answer, maybe, but if you are standing before the Creator of the universe, He has a point. Here's a tast of His reply:

Job 38:2-3
2 "Who is this that darkens my counsel with words without knowledge?
3 Brace yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer me.
4 "Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? Tell me, if you understand.
5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it?

Isaiah 40:28 flat out states that we can't understand God: Do you not know? Have you not heard? The LORD is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He will not grow tired or weary, and his understanding no one can fathom.

Romans 3:11 says the same: there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.

The point I'm trying to make here, Champion--with WAY too many words, probably --is that, even though we can look at the things the Bible tells us God is and does, we can never expect to have full understand of Him or all of His actions. Some things, yes...but some things will always be beyond us; which is why He calls us to faith.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If God is the standard that we're to live up to, then shouldn't his actions also be moral, so that when they're followed by us, that we are also moral and don't cause all sorts of trouble?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Since we cannot have full understanding of God, we cannot fully live up to Him. This is our standard:

1) Love God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength.
2) Love others as we love ourselves.

These are the standard He calls us to live by.



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If humans are fallible, then how do we know that the bible is "inerrant", or that "God's laws" are as He intended? After all, it was "fallible humans" who wrote all this stuff down, even if they were inspired by God.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Again....we don't know it . We are called to faith. By my faith, I ask, "If God is big enough to create the universe, then isn't He big enough to ensure I have the words in this book that He wanted me to have?" And by faith, my answer is, "Yes."

Of course, the above assumes first a belief and faith in God. And this just what He calls me to--however unfair it might seem to us.

So, back to the original basis of your question--God and His rules. Does God obey His own rules? Yes. Do we have the same rules He does? No. He gets to make the rules, and they aren't always the same for both Him and humans. His power and understanding exceed ours, and therefore He gets different rules. Same as a parent gets different rules from the child .


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not sure if I'm explaining this right; this topic made my head hurt when I was a Christian and it hasn't changed since.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I know what you mean. I hope my reply didn't go to far afield for the same reason

BTW, I do not believe that one can lose one's salvation, although some here do. IMHO, if you once accepted Christ as Lord and Savior, you are saved and His forever. God calls His children and never leaves them until they are by His side. I do not know your motives in being here, but I cannot help but wonder if the very reason you are still questioning things (in spite of no longer being a Christian) is because He's calling your name. One of His children cannot stay away from Him forever, or so has been my past experience with Him.

I hope some of this helps...or was at least a little interesting

[Ted C]

For those who wished to follow this thread, I transported parts of it to a Christian discussion board. What follows is one of the latest posts (Champion is debating with someone else here)

That's probably the most intelligent response to this question a Christian could give, but while it makes sense for someone who has already decided that God is behaving in a moral manner, it's not really satisfactory for someone looking at the faith from the outside.

[Sir Sirius]

1. Why did you resurrect this thread? It was dead for quite a while.
2. Linky to this "christian discussion board" would be nice. They know of us, it is only fair in my mind that we know of them.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How is morality measure in any being? By their actions.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Good point. I can't be fully certain about which actions you consider God to have taken that were immoral. However, I can give some points as a parent that might clarify how I view those issues you might be looking at. (I find it's often very helpful, for me, to use my role as a parent to compare God's role in our lives.) [I'd dearly love to hear the circumstances under which infantice and mass-genocide are OK.]

When my son was younger, he used to ask me questions that basically boiled down to, "How come YOU can do such-and-such, and I can't?" [More like "Why do you commit such unspeakble attrocities if you love us?"] Sometimes I could provide a good answer for him--but the basic point was generally the same. "I can handle it, I am mature enough, I am--at this point in my life--knowledgable enough and responsible enough to do it. You simply aren't." Sometimes, the answer wasn't as easily explainable [I'm thinking this would be one of those cases] , and he was left with, "Because I know better. You'll simply have to trust that I know best and obey me." [Translation: I'm bigger then you. the basic might makes right arqument.] That sounds like a cop-out, but it's not. [For a parent in this situation; no, for you in this arqument; yes it is.] I don't know a parent yet that hasn't had to resort to this last at some point [But god is supposed to be omnipotent, omniscient and infallibel, something that no parent is, I'd really expect better from him. Besides not many parents have killid millions upon millions of people.]--either because of the child's lack of understand, or just because NO argument would be good enough to help the child accept the ruling. [Yeah, justifying infantice is hard ain't it and your might makes right attitude shines through again]

God has to say the exact same thing to us, sometimes. And because we ARE children to Him (no matter HOW mature and knowledgable we feel we are), sometimes we just have to trust Him. Again, that's not a cop-out, but just exactly what He's called us to--faith. [In an arqument that definately is a cop out] Over and over again, He calls us to faith, to trust *shrug* We might not like it, we may feel it's unfair, but there it is. He wants faith.

That is just a verbose way of saying that the "The ways of god are unknowable" and "He's bigger then us, knows better us and therefor everything he does is OK. Nevermind the fact that I can't even begin to justify the attrocities commit by him." and yeah, it IS a cop-out for you to pull this age old crap in this arqument. The fact that you commit this cop-out in the name of faith (credulity or what ever) really makes no difference.

Oh, and since you so much love these parenting examples how about a scenario where you have sodomized and beaten your son half to death for no apparent reason. How would you explain and justify your actions to him then? Because that is a lot closer to the situation god is in trying to explain his actions to mankind then your previuos example

[Sir Sirius]

Job makes some points along these lines--the seeming unfairness of life (if you haven't read this book, I'd recommend it; it has some good points that I think you'd find helpful in answering your line of thinking).

ROLFMAO!!!!!!!!!!!
This guy doesn't seem to understand that the book of Job is the best example of injustices and absurdities in the bible. The very pinnacle of stupidity in that book I'd say and that is saying a lot.

Beginning in Job 9, you see Job making points about it all. and in Job 21:22-26, he kind of sums it up, for me anyway, and says:
<Snipped to save space.>
The point I'm trying to make here, Champion--with WAY too many words, probably --is that, even though we can look at the things the Bible tells us God is and does, we can never expect to have full understand of Him or all of His actions. Some things, yes...but some things will always be beyond us; which is why He calls us to faith.

Why didn't you just say: "Might makes right and god is bigger then us."? Cuz' that is all that section boils down to.

Oh, and you forgot Job 38:22. Treasures of snow and hail... LMAO!!!

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If God is the standard that we're to live up to, then shouldn't his actions also be moral, so that when they're followed by us, that we are also moral and don't cause all sorts of trouble?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Since we cannot have full understanding of God, we cannot fully live up to Him. This is our standard:

1) Love God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength.
2) Love others as we love ourselves.
[3) Forget all the horrible things I've done.
4) Follow all my silly commands and expectations.
5) Oh, BTW slavery is OK, homosexuals deserve to die, raped women should marry their rapists, stubborn children ought to be put to death, animal sacrifice is a good way to treat illnesses Etc.
6) Now do as I tell you or I'll screw you over in a thousand different ways, give you hemmorroids and smite you straight to hell to suffer an eternity of torture.]

These are the standard He calls us to live by.

You forgot a few, but I was kind enough to lend you a helping hand.

[Sir Sirius]

Again....we don't know it . We are called to faith. By my faith, I ask, "If God is big enough to create the universe, then isn't He big enough to ensure I have the words in this book that He wanted me to have?" And by faith, my answer is, "Yes."

Of course, the above assumes first a belief and faith in God. And this just what He calls me to--however unfair it might seem to us.

So, back to the original basis of your question--God and His rules. Does God obey His own rules? Yes. Do we have the same rules He does? No. He gets to make the rules, and they aren't always the same for both Him and humans. His power and understanding exceed ours, and therefore He gets different rules. Same as a parent gets different rules from the child.

Yawn... Might makes right, yet again. BIG surprise!

The rest is just a protolyzing attempt, I'll ignore it for now.

[jegs2]

1. Why did you resurrect this thread? It was dead for quite a while.
2. Linky to this "christian discussion board" would be nice. They know of us, it is only fair in my mind that we know of them.

I post copies of posts from here to there and vice versa, but they know not the origin, nor is that my intent. As to why I resurrected the thread, there is interest (as has been readily demonstrated by your reply -- lack of interest would have prevented any meaningful reply).