Matrix Reloaded Discussion [Spoilers, Matrix Reloaded]

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-05-19 04:26pm

The point of Zion is that it's supposed to give the rebellious souls who don't accept something to do. Illusion or real, it serves both that goal and another, gaining the One and delivering him to the Source.

But the Architect made it clear that the rebellious humans could not be induced to accept the Matrix in any form by their very nature. They can't be controlled within the Matrix, period. That's why they must be removed from it.

Except said military force will make sure the One returns to the Source, thus allowing more troubleshooting.

Unplug every single Zionist human except for the one, send a small force to retrieve him, force him to go to the Source, problem solved.

But still doesn't deal with the fact The One used his powers in the so-called Real World, and there's no rational explanation(A fucking PLUG becoming a WIRELESS TRANSMITTOR is not rational).

We don't know that Zion is within the Matrix. At this point, it is an unnecessary assumption to make when explaining Neo's newfound powers, especially when we can do so by using whatever bond Smith and Neo share. It may not be a wireless transmitter per se, but until Revolutions it is the most reasonable explanation.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-05-19 04:28pm

This is now the official Matrix Reloaded sticky thread.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-05-19 04:29pm

Durran Korr wrote:
The point of Zion is that it's supposed to give the rebellious souls who don't accept something to do. Illusion or real, it serves both that goal and another, gaining the One and delivering him to the Source.
But the Architect made it clear that the rebellious humans could not be induced to accept the Matrix in any form by their very nature. They can't be controlled within the Matrix, period. That's why they must be removed from it.

Except they were being controlled, that's the whole point of the Prophecy.

Except said military force will make sure the One returns to the Source, thus allowing more troubleshooting.
Unplug every single Zionist human except for the one, send a small force to retrieve him, force him to go to the Source, problem solved.

Why waste the effort? The One WILL go to the Source, that's the point.

But still doesn't deal with the fact The One used his powers in the so-called Real World, and there's no rational explanation(A fucking PLUG becoming a WIRELESS TRANSMITTOR is not rational).
We don't know that Zion is within the Matrix. At this point, it is an unnecessary assumption to make when explaining Neo's newfound powers, especially when we can do so by using whatever bond Smith and Neo share. It may not be a wireless transmitter per se, but until Revolutions it is the most reasonable explanation.

ROTFL. A completely unsupported theory as opposed to the Architect lying is 'most reasonable'.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-05-19 04:31pm

Actually not everybody was controlled. Remember, not everybody believed that the prophecy was true.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-05-19 04:32pm

neoolong wrote:Actually not everybody was controlled. Remember, not everybody believed that the prophecy was true.

Indeed, so the Architect was ultimately right. However, there were enough that the Prophecy was still followed, and the Machines still won, in the long sense. Enough were controlled by the Prophecy that everything still went accordingly.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-05-19 04:40pm

Except they werebeing controlled, that's the whole point of the Prophecy.

The Prophecy exists to control the humans in Zion. That still doesn't mean it is within the Matrix. Did you not listen to the Architect? He made it clear that the Machines did not have the code necessary to induce the rebellious factor to accept the Matrix. If Zion was part of the Matrix, the humans would realize it still on an unconscious level and revolt against the system once again, even with the prophecies. Outside the Matrix, however, the humans can be made to believe the prophecy without subconsciously realizing the world to be a fake.

Why waste the effort? The One WILL go to the Source, that's the point.

Effort? Sending 250,000 Sentinels to destroy Zion involves quite a bit more effort than my situation.

ROTFL. A completely unsupported theory as opposed to the Architect lying is 'most reasonable'.

Not unsupported. Smith clearly implies that he and Neo either share some sort of bond or have altered one another in some way. No one in the movie, by contrast, suggests that Zion exists within the Matrix.

Sriad · Post by **Sriad** » 2003-05-19 06:04pm

I think that Zion isn't in the Matrix based on thematic appeal: the Wachowski brothers have already done a major twist with Zion by making in controlled by the machines; a second twist on the same point would just be stupid. "Luke, I am your Father!"
"Nooo!!"
"And your Brother!"
"Wait, what the fuck?"

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-05-19 06:08pm

Sriad wrote:I think that Zion isn't in the Matrix based on thematic appeal: the Wachowski brothers have already done a major twist with Zion by making in controlled by the machines; a second twist on the same point would just be stupid. "Luke, I am your Father!"
"Nooo!!"
"And your Brother!"
"Wait, what the fuck?"

Hitting the nail on the head right there. There's a point where plot twists can become bad storytelling, and the plot twist in Reloaded is more than enough and eliminates the need for more.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-05-19 06:08pm

Sriad wrote:I think that Zion isn't in the Matrix based on thematic appeal: the Wachowski brothers have already done a major twist with Zion by making in controlled by the machines; a second twist on the same point would just be stupid. "Luke, I am your Father!"
"Nooo!!"
"And your Brother!"
"Wait, what the fuck?"

LMAO...yeah I can see Luke trying to formulate

"So Leia is my sister and my MOTHER?!"

Remembers getting kissed by her in ESB...

Promptly sticks lightsaber into stomach

Though a matrix within a matrix does give an idea of Neo's EMP blast(I still hold it's because what he is...the anomaly and has a bit of them in him)...it wouldn't be even sustaining to the fact of the Arcitecht complaining about rebellion within the Matrix.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-05-19 06:39pm

SirNitram wrote:
zombie84 wrote:No second Matrix is needed because this plot point will suffice.
Yet this offers no explanation for the four times Neo uses his powers inside the Real World.

1) Dies, comes back.
2) Trinity dies, he brings her back.
3) He 'feels' the Sentinels.
4) He blasts the Sentinels.

Thank you.

The "second layer of the Matrix" theory just explains it all better.

Rather than having some bizarre metaphyiscal "connection with the machines" or what have you.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-05-19 06:43pm

Durran Korr wrote:Hitting the nail on the head right there. There's a point where plot twists can become bad storytelling, and the plot twist in Reloaded is more than enough and eliminates the need for more.

Doesn't change the fact that based on what we know its the more rational explanation based on pure in-movie facts, rather than what we consider "good storytelling."

Sam Or I · Post by **Sam Or I** » 2003-05-19 07:37pm

Heres some more over looked facts in support of Zion being a second layer of the Matrix

The Prophecy was fufilled to the fullest extent it could, despite "real world" mishaps.
A:In the first Matrix when Cypher wakes up, and tries to kill Neo, does not happen after he shot the guy not once but twice.
B: The whole 3 ships with 3 Tasks, as Morpheus said, that it cannot be coincidence.

Then there is Neo stopping the Machines at the end. How can he do it? The Agent smith connection does not fly with me.
A: There is no proof that Agent Smith even has a connection with the Squids.
B: Why is Morpheus not connected? The Smiths started transforming him. (Which brings up a new point, will Morpheos get some of Neos powers)
C: How can he control them. Don't you think the look for transmitters when the "unplug them", hell, would a transmitter survive an EMP blast.

It is easier for me to buy the second matrix theory.

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2003-05-19 07:48pm

I do think there are going to be more plot twists. However I think these are going to revolve around the Archeitect/Oracles true intentions and plans, the one, and agent smith, I hope we do not have anymore background plot twists (matrix in a matrix).

Also something I've stumbled upon.

http://thematrixonline.warnerbros.com/index2.html

This is a new game in the series. Now if this is as part of the actual storyline and not a disconnected continuation of the franchise (which it appears not to be) this tells us something important.

The matrix will not be destroyed![/b]

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2003-05-19 08:07pm

Darth_Shinji wrote: This is a new game in the series. Now if this is as part of the actual storyline and not a disconnected continuation of the franchise (which it appears not to be) this tells us something important.

The matrix will not be destroyed!

Not necessarily. After all, it takes place after Revolutions, so it could very well be in the next (read: seventh) Matrix.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-05-19 08:08pm

If it was still part of the storyline of the movies, that would mean that the humans don't win at the end of the third movie. Either some people choose to stay in the Matrix, not everybody is yet freed, they are still at war, or Zion is wiped out but the 23 and the war starts anew.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-05-19 08:33pm

Durran Korr wrote:
Except they werebeing controlled, that's the whole point of the Prophecy.
The Prophecy exists to control the humans in Zion. That still doesn't mean it is within the Matrix. Did you not listen to the Architect? He made it clear that the Machines did not have the code necessary to induce the rebellious factor to accept the Matrix. If Zion was part of the Matrix, the humans would realize it still on an unconscious level and revolt against the system once again, even with the prophecies. Outside the Matrix, however, the humans can be made to believe the prophecy without subconsciously realizing the world to be a fake.

I suggest you consider what allows someone to reject the programming and become one of the pariahs. We saw an indication of what Neo's life was like in Smith's interview. It was dull, complacent, the sort of life where we wonder about 'true meanings' and other bullshit. And in Zion, there's time for this.. When? They're so busy, and those that would be able to realize(Those that got unplugged in the first place) seem busy going back in.

Why waste the effort? The One WILL go to the Source, that's the point.
Effort? Sending 250,000 Sentinels to destroy Zion involves quite a bit more effort than my situation.

Not really. By my theory, they're just illusions anyway.

ROTFL. A completely unsupported theory as opposed to the Architect lying is 'most reasonable'.
Not unsupported. Smith clearly implies that he and Neo either share some sort of bond or have altered one another in some way. No one in the movie, by contrast, suggests that Zion exists within the Matrix.

Hey, moron. The idea that Neo can have some psudeosupernatural uplink when NOT PLUGGED IN is completely unsupported. The metal disk has never demonstrated the power to transmit signals on it's own. That is what these crackpot theories require, and it is completely unsupported. It's a MUM(Mysterious Unknown Mechanism), you know, what Darkstar was addicted to. I realize we don't want what they've worked for to be nothing, but that's no reason to ignore logic.

Outside of logic, I will admit it is possible the story will not go this way. But that's not logical examination of what's happened, that's a storyteller predicting other's writing.

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2003-05-19 08:55pm

Personaly I think Matrix Online is going to be the "true" war against the machines, ether the humans awake into the real world as the matrix within a matrix people think, or zion is saved from destruction. Then with Neo's example they truly rebel.

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2003-05-19 08:59pm

DPDarkPrimus wrote:
Darth_Shinji wrote: This is a new game in the series. Now if this is as part of the actual storyline and not a disconnected continuation of the franchise (which it appears not to be) this tells us something important.

The matrix will not be destroyed!
Not necessarily. After all, it takes place after Revolutions, so it could very well be in the next (read: seventh) Matrix.

I meant the machines are not beaten and the Matrix is destoried and everybody freed.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-05-19 09:08pm

I just got back from seeing the Matrix....my thoughts. Not as good stroytelling wise as the first but damn sight better in terms of action. I will not get into priase because we all have enough to give it let's deal with some issues and let me throw my own hat in the ring in regards to the twists and finale.

ZION

I LIKED the rave scene. I know I am in the minority but here are human beings that are facing death. Humans have always tried to savor life one more time before going off to face death. A friend of mine wwho served in Vietnam would tell me that all his buddies before going off on patrol when possible or getting itno some heavy shit would always tried to get laid first. It is a very human thing to do, to feel good, to feel alive one last time. I enjoyed that aspect since this is a machine vs. human story.

I DID NOT like the portrayal of women in Zion. Trace's wife was just so fucking bitchy and unsupportive. Your man is out there doing what he can to keep you safe. Jesus he has to get shit the minute he comes home from you???

Trinity left Neo to his followers, how about being there by his side and helping him out in a difficult position for him. So much for being there for him when he needs you - geez.

FORESHADOWING in Zion. As a writer I saw the gratuitous foreshadowing scene coming from a mile away. The councelor takes Neo down to engineering. The message in the little pep talk "Men and Machines can live together in harmony" REMEMBER This, because this is the key to my prediction about Revolutions.

THE CHARACTERS

Each of the main characters has regressed or devolved in some way that made it annoying some times and the most annoying of that bunch is Trinity.

Trinity - She has become nothing more than a GF now. The hero's hanger on and the requisite damsel in distress....I'm sorry, Trinity a damsel in distress? Trinity was the one that BROUGHT NEO BACK in the first movie, The greatest thing about Trinity in that movie was that she was NOT a damsel in distress. In fact MORPHEUS played that part in the movie. How often do you see women portrayed so well in an action flick??
She was sort of there and I could never shake that feeling and all the huggy kissy shit between her and Neo was so out of character. Finally she was reduced to a plot point in teh movie, soemthing to distract Neo, give him a dilemma. I never once felt in the movie like she was her own living breathing character as in the first one.

Morpheus - He was the black Yoda in the first movie. Now what is he? The black Yoda with an attitude. Does he serve ANY purpose in the movie...seriously ask yourself is there ANYTHING in that movie he did that could not have been done by someone else? Trinity could have fought the agent on the Semi.

Neo - UGH. He had discovered that he was the One. There was a peace there and you could hear it in his voice at the end of the first movie. He was going to start a revolution agaoinst the machines and he was going to see what choice they made. Now what was his main focus...."I don;t know what to do?" WTF?!??!! YOU KNOW WHAT TO DO ASHSOLE YOU'RE THE ONE NOW!!!!
Of all of them this just felt like the writers saying, hey, let's give Neo some angst. BUT HE GOT OVER HIS ANGST AND SELF DOUBT in the FIRST movie asshole.
Was anyone else also upset by the fact that he was reduced to Kung Fuing the enemy. The last movie CLEARLY showed that he no longer even needed to Kung Fu them, he was WAY FASTER than they could ever be. Jesus, he's the one, why wasn;t he teleporting around, looking at an agent and causing him to explode? The matrix is his plaything, he coudl do with it what he pelased and he goes back to Kung Fuing.

"You're telling me that I can dodge bullets?" "NO when the time comes you won't need to....that is until the sequel when the writers will power you down because they don;t know how to deal with you."

In the end the problems with the characters is thus: they each completed their roles in the first movie. Morpheus as mentor, Trinity as love interest and Neo as messiah. There's nothing left for them to grow into and it shows.

MATRIX REVOLUTIONS

This is only my theory, but I think that Neo will be the bridge between man and machine as foreshadowed (and could ya have hit us over the head harder with it?) in the Zion scene when the councilor talks about the interdependence of man and machine. How the machines in Zion work for their better good and they upkeep the machines.

The Oracle also mentioned that one of her motivations was bringing an understanding between programs and humans. Neo will not reboot the Matrix the way the Archtect would like, but he will instead bring man and amchine together in some way, shedding the bionds of control that the machines have over man to craete a more equal society.

Just my take on it. The Matrix will not be destroyed but I wouldn't be surprised that it becomes something more. Revolutions is a telling title, because Revolutions actually change nothing, they just simply end where they began, a revolution is a complete circle. Hence the matrix will still be around but perhaps as the perfect utopia from which it began.

Trust me on this, machines cannot kill man, man cannot kill machines, we're in a symbiotic relationship and Neo as the One will unite them together by breaking the cycle of his previous incarnations.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-05-19 09:17pm

Actually, in a way Morpheus was right. He doesn't need to dodge bullets because he can stop them. And those that have encountered him before are smart enough to not try to just shoot him.

It isn't so much that they powered Neo down, it's that they made everybody else stronger. It's just it wasn't shown that well in the movie.

Xon · Post by **Xon** » 2003-05-19 09:40pm

SirNitram wrote: 2) Trinity dies, he brings her back.

Trinity's heart stopped. She isnt brain dead for another 10 minutes.

Which is why I say no one in the ship (The one Neo is on) and Neo him selve dont know CPR.

Heart flat lined, but lets all just start to morn her! No attempt to use CPR or anytype of heart restarting...

Drooling Iguana · Post by **Drooling Iguana** » 2003-05-19 11:55pm

Durran Korr wrote:[Didn't you see the end of the movie? Neo puts out his hand and the sentinels in pursuit stop instantly. It is possible that that was an EMP shockwave coming from Cpt. Niobe's ship, but an EMP wouldn't make Neo pass out. Unless Neo is part machine now...questions, questions...

Neo is now part machine, and one of the machines is now part Neo. Neo and Agent Smith became linked at the end of the first movie.

xcountryman03 wrote:Oh and what was with that guy that wanted to kill Neo (the one outside the matrix)

That was Smith. He can leave the Matrix now by "infecting" Zionists.

Durran Korr wrote: What exactly is the One, anyway? While he is a human, the Architect states that he is produced by the Matrix (and considers this to be a flaw in the system). Perhaps the One is sort of an insurance policy sneaked into the Matrix by a pro-human AI. It just hasn't yet fulfilled its obligation; the Machines seem to have done a fairly good job dealing with it.

No, The One was an anomaly deliberately inserted into the program by the machines, in order to give the humans the illusion of choice.

Joe Momma wrote: I don't object to the "eat, drink, and be merry" idea (which isn't quite what you're getting at, but along the same lines), but it seemed like a lot of people were pissing away vital moments when they should have been preparing for the wolves at the door, as it were.

Again, that was by the machines' design. They were deliberately "babying" Zion so that the Zionists would think that they were a threat to the machines without actually being one. Illusion of choice.

Sea Skimmer wrote:Why didn't they use the EMP against the incoming bomb? It could have brought them a little time at least, even if another one was sent right after it.

EMP only works against electronics. Bombs don't necessarily have to contain electronic components.

Ted C wrote: The presence of “free” programs within the Matrix introduces some logic problems that make it hard for me to suspend my disbelief. How have these rogue programs evaded destruction by the Agents that are loyal to the system? Why do they emotional, even sexual, relationships with each other? Why do programs like Persephone and the Merovingian have marital fidelity problems. Persephone’s actions are just baffling for someone who’s supposed to be a face attached to a piece of computer software.

Or a piece of computer software attached to a face. Remember that the Agents always needed human host bodies. Maybe their internal processing is handled by the human brain, and given enough time some of the human's original personality starts to seep through.

Ted C wrote: And then there’s the legendary “old” agents, who seem to have more useful abilities than the “modern” agents. I thought agents had been designed to be consistent with the “reality” of the matrix, so why were these ghost and werewolf agents ever made?

Remember that this is the sixth version of Zion, and that Morpheus's sermon indicated that it had been around for roughly a century. If we assume that each previous incarnation of Zion also lasted for a hundread years, then the Matrix began its life simulating the middle ages. A ghost or werewolf agent might have been far more effective then.

SirNitram wrote: But still doesn't deal with the fact The One used his powers in the so-called Real World, and there's no rational explanation(A fucking PLUG becoming a WIRELESS TRANSMITTOR is not rational)

Maybe the plugs were designed that way, so that the machines could still maintain subtle control over the Zionists.

What I think is interesting is that we now know that the Oracle was just part of the program all along, the Oracle was the one that told Trinity that she'd fall in love with Neo (which probably influenced her feelings somewhat) and that it was Neo's love for Trinity that caused him to take the other door. Could it be that even that was planned? Which side is the Oracle really on?

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-05-20 07:51am

Drooling Iguana wrote: EMP only works against electronics. Bombs don't necessarily have to contain electronic components.

The 'bombs' in the movie certainly did. They have so many flashing lights and moving parts they were almost certainly guided, if not 'machines' in the Matrix sense.

Maybe the plugs were designed that way, so that the machines could still maintain subtle control over the Zionists.

Doesnt' work. Not all the free humans have plugs- some are naturally born-Tank & Dozer in the first movie.

zombie84 · Post by **zombie84** » 2003-05-20 02:38pm

I think i have said this before but i will say it again:

HERE IS THE REASON WHY NEO CAN CONTROL MACHINES IN THE REAL WORLD

Yes, the Real World is the Real World. Just accept this for the moment, even if you dont believe it just suspend that beleif while i explain this all. Yes, Neo somehow stopped machines in the Real World. How? Smith. I'll elaborate in a sec.

Smith says that when Neo killed him, that part of Neo was copied onto Smith. That much is certain. But he also says that the two are now somehow linked. Part of Smith copied onto Neo as well. Neo gained the ability to exert control over the machines, just as Smith gained the ability to rebel against his programming. How is this possible?

HERE IS WHY: When people 'jack in' to the Matrix, an electronic stem is connected directly to their brains, which have been fused with mechanical and electronical parts to allow for electronic input and output (i.e. the Matrix). This is how they can simply download information directly to their brain and enter the electronic simulation of the Matrix. Therefore, the data from Smith's program itself could be inputted directly into Neo's brain when they fused. In fact, Smith does this exact same when with Bane. He absorbs him, and then when the phone rings, he downloads himself back into the guys brain. Therefore, a program can exist in the real world, through the use of humans because their brains allow for input and output of computer data. The human brain has the ability to be used as a host for computer data.

The reason Neo doesnt use this ability until the end of the film is because he hadnt been enlightened. When Neo first enters the Matrix in the first movie, he had all the potential that he had in the second film, and yet we do not see Thomas Anderson flipping over buildings. Why? he was not enlightened.
This could further the religious symbolism, connecting Neo to the Buddha: when Neo becomes enlightened, he basically becomes god. He can control both worlds now, and this will ultimatly lead to his ability to stop the Reload cycle and bring down the machines. That is why the next film is called Matrix: Revolutions.

Problem solved

. Thank you very much.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-05-20 02:54pm

That still doesn't explain how he can transmit or receive.