The House of Saud is coming down.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Re ... sp?ID=7892

- And this is why we must be ready to intervene when it does; indeed, not only must, but have a moral duty to do so.

[Enforcer Talen]

-wonders if morality entails they knock around most the middle east-

[XPViking]

Duchess,

Please state why the USA should intervene in Saudi Arabia. Would it go along the lines of "Ummm...stamp out terrorism....protect the global economy (i.e. keep the oil pumping)...keep Saudi stable and free from Islamic fundementalists....errr...(damn, no WMDs? What about regime change?)"

XPViking

[Enforcer Talen]

my only complaint with america in the middle east wars is that, while you can use the same reason for each state, it sounds really silly the third or fourth time.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Duchess,

Please state why the USA should intervene in Saudi Arabia. Would it go along the lines of "Ummm...stamp out terrorism....protect the global economy (i.e. keep the oil pumping)...keep Saudi stable and free from Islamic fundementalists....errr...(damn, no WMDs? What about regime change?)"

XPViking

I'm saying that we can't allow that country to collapse; that the risks of intervention are less than those of letting the House of Saud fall from power. Also, that because of our own support for the House of Saud, we do have some responsibility in seeing that the KSA avoids the worst of fates, even if it is almost surely impossible that we could replicate democracy there as we are likely to in Iraq.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

my only complaint with america in the middle east wars is that, while you can use the same reason for each state, it sounds really silly the third or fourth time.

You can apply the same reasons to about 80% of the whole Arab world legitimately, to be blunt.

[XPViking]

I'm saying that we can't allow that country to collapse; that the risks of intervention are less than those of letting the House of Saud fall from power. Also, that because of our own support for the House of Saud, we do have some responsibility in seeing that the KSA avoids the worst of fates, even if it is almost surely impossible that we could replicate democracy there as we are likely to in Iraq.

What kind of responsibility does the USA have to the House of Saud. Moral?

XPViking

[The Duchess of Zeon]

What kind of responsibility does the USA have to the House of Saud. Moral?

XPViking

I think that in the final accounting we screwed up. Even in the context of the Cold War we supported the wrong side. We were blinded to the fact that the world wasn't two sided, and that we were letting other enemies develop. The 50s, 60s, and even the early 70s - There were all chances in there for progress in the Arab and in the Muslim world in general. But we did the wrong things because, in part, of the Soviets. I'm not necessarily going to blame the people who chose to do them.

The Cold War was a real war, and the people on the ground at the time had to make decisions in the context of what they knew and the enemy they were facing. But it created problems, serious problems, and ones we are responsible force. One of them, ultimately, is the fact that we've been propping up regimes like the KSA which are reactionary monarchist governments of the worst sort, totally contrary to the principles of our Republic. Even ignoring strategic considerations, now, we need to go in and fix that.

[NapoleonGH]

and fixing the problems of americans supporting horrid regimes includes proping up one of the worst regimes we've supported?

[The Duchess of Zeon]

and fixing the problems of americans supporting horrid regimes includes proping up one of the worst regimes we've supported?

No, it involves removing it.

[NapoleonGH]

sorry i misread your posts, i still dont see where the US gets the right to intervene in everyone else's soveriegn affairs, why do we have a "kill anyone we want for free" card?

[MKSheppard]

I'm saying that we can't allow that country to collapse; that the risks of intervention are less than those of letting the House of Saud fall from power.

How about we simply let it fall, and then move in the Armored Divisions and
kill anyone who tells us to fuck off, and claim them as a colonial protectorate?

[The Duchess of Zeon]

sorry i misread your posts, i still dont see where the US gets the right to intervene in everyone else's soveriegn affairs, why do we have a "kill anyone we want for free" card?

We don't. If we did, this problem would already be solved now.

[XPViking]

Ah...regime change. Gotcha Duchess. Maybe you could get a job with the Bush administration.

XPViking

[Knife]

sorry i misread your posts, i still dont see where the US gets the right to intervene in everyone else's soveriegn affairs, why do we have a "kill anyone we want for free" card?

You were just complaining in the other thread that we don't clean up our messes. That we cause problems and then ignore our responsibility, well which one do you want?

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Ah...regime change. Gotcha Duchess. Maybe you could get a job with the Bush administration.

XPViking

I wouldn't want one. I lost my respect for President Bush after he announced that he'd renew the Assault Weapons Ban if it came across his desk. Unlike the administration, I have principles, ones that won't be sacrificed for things like votes--that announcement is going to lose him votes, anyway, or would if he wasn't so lucky as to have a principled House of Representatives that will see that such a renewal bill never reaches his desk (The senate is a pack of worthless rats on both sides of the aisle).

That doesn't mean, however, that I oppose anything that's been done in foreign policy so far. Quite the contrary, I will continue to support the administration, because I realize the alternative is infinitely worse. Western civilization, every value that I hold dear, indeed, my very life, is at stake from the thread of spreading Islamist power and the general degeneration and lethargy that has been spread through postmodern concepts. Ultimately my aim is to see democratic freedom gifted to the whole world - By force, if necessary, though preferably not. I merely hope that people like myself can continue to maintain a resolute defence against the general idiocy, ignorance, and moral feebleness of the Left on one hand, and the Saudi-induced corruption and plain political weakness of the American Right on the other.

Eventually we will have to come to a reckoning with these people. The sooner it happens, the less blood will be spilt. The longer we delay, the more powerful they become, and the weaker our own spirit grows. There's no question that a vicious and swift action now is precisely what is needed.

On domestic issues I have given up on the Bush administration, and care for them only because there's some hope that they'll cut taxes a bit, and so reduce the inexorable expansion of government. On foreign policy issues? My only complaint is that in 9/12 a call for volunteers was not put out, the whole of the army not mobilized, our embassies to the KSA and the other despicable nations recalled, and the full preparations for War made. But we had to move slowly, I grant--My fear, now, is that the slowness comes from Saudi intrigue as opposed to any real strategic plan.

[Solauren]

I hate to be blunt, and rude, but...

Why the hell is the States even staying in the middle east?

The Cold War is over.

They had no real reason to stay there past the collapse of the Soviet union.

Then again, the average American administration is stupid. Quite literally. Think about it.

The US armed most of the states in the Middle East to help fight Communisim. Fine.

But why did they arm them, instead of just bribing them into letting them keep a few armored division's in country?

Then again, even that would have been a problem.

The Middle East has been full of religious extremist for a long time. This isn't racist, it's fact. I'm not saying all people in the Middle East are extremist, or even a large minority. In truth, it's probably less then 1%.

However, when those 1% are willing to strap 5 pounds of C-4 explosive to them, walk into a mall, or office building, and press the detonate button...

Bin Laden is the perfect example. The troops the States have in Saudi Arabia, or rather did, since they are withdrawing them, are there not as invaders, but to help protect Saudi Arabia from Iraq, and be there in case Iraq tries something against Kuwait or anyone else in the region.

Al-Qadia is hardly a new problem, it's been around for at least 10 years. Any effort Saudi Arabia has made to clean them up in country is laughable. Otherwise, they would not be able to blow up buildings or commit suicide bombings with the co-ordination they are still showing.

IMHO, the United States should completely withdraw from the middle east (except Iraq, where they now have a responsiblity to help set up the country and see to it's protection until it can protect itself) and let them deal with there own problems.

People might say "world economy" and "keep the oil flowing", that's fine. That's dandy.

IF keeping the oil flowing is that damn important, if a civil war or something breaks out, send a huge force into a country, arrest everyone, clean out all it's offensive capability of any kind, and put garrisons along it's borders with orders to shot anyone that comes within half a mile of it.

However, this might be extreme

Another option would be to tell Saudi Arabia to inact a law where if you commit a suicide bombing or other terrorist style act, your ENTIRE FAMILY can be punished for it. Parents, siblings, children, cousins, niece and nephews. And I'm not talking fines or jail terms, I'm talking about execution.

First, that might stop some of the bombers. Alot of would-be bombers, or bombers that are successful and leave notes, claim they are doing it for there family and country. Now doing it is counter productive. Why blow up a building for your kids future if doing so is going to get the kid executed?

At the same time, shore up the defensives around American compounds, and put a total travel restriction between Saudi Arabia and the States, including citizens of either country going in from other countries. Just keep military and diplomatic personel there, and don't hire native workers.

[jegs2]

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Re ... sp?ID=7892

- And this is why we must be ready to intervene when it does; indeed, not only must, but have a moral duty to do so.

I've little doubt that an overthrow of the kingdom by Islamic fundamentalists would be soon followed by a US invasion and occupation.

[Vympel]

I've little doubt that an overthrow of the kingdom by Islamic fundamentalists would be soon followed by a US invasion and occupation.

It didn't happen in Iran in 1979- but that could be a question of presidency.

[Sir Sirius]

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Re ... sp?ID=7892

- And this is why we must be ready to intervene when it does; indeed, not only must, but have a moral duty to do so.

I've little doubt that an overthrow of the kingdom by Islamic fundamentalists would be soon followed by a US invasion and occupation.

I see a new wave of recruits flocking to join the ranks of Al-Qaeda and the like.

[MKSheppard]

I see a new wave of recruits flocking to join the ranks of Al-Qaeda and the like.

GOOD!

Let the cockroaches scurry in from the darkness so we can smash them
with this:

[jegs2]

I see a new wave of recruits flocking to join the ranks of Al-Qaeda and the like.

Little doubt there. Terrorism is growing considerably. Nobody can take on the US military directly, but terrorsist strikes are inexpensive for the press and panic they create.

[Sir Sirius]

I see a new wave of recruits flocking to join the ranks of Al-Qaeda and the like.

Little doubt there. Terrorism is growing considerably. Nobody can take on the US military directly, but terrorsist strikes are inexpensive for the press and panic they create.

Wow, I agree with everything you just said.

[Sea Skimmer]

It didn't happen in Iran in 1979- but that could be a question of presidency.

And the military situation. Iran was too big; too rough terrain wise and too well armed for the US to tackle with the Soviet Union building up. Saudi Arabia on the other hand is a much smaller nation with some very good equipment but poor training and little ability to support it. Its 20+ million population count isn't that accurate, millions of them are imported laborers on contract. As I recall there's only around ten million actual Saudis

Though of them more then half are kids under 14, so the US Army would need good glass on its windshields. Israel should be able to suggest something.

[HemlockGrey]

How about we simply let it fall, and then move in the Armored Divisions and kill anyone who tells us to fuck off, and claim them as a colonial protectorate?

Yes, let us hearken back to the good old days of Manifest Destiny...