Thermodynamics and the Matrix (no Reloaded Spoilers)

Sir Sirius · Post by **Sir Sirius** » 2003-05-19 03:32pm

Four kilometer long cables to power an entire city and the AI never notices this minor theft of electricity?
Besides those hovercrafts didn't have extension cords.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-05-19 03:33pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Sea Skimmer wrote:I suppose its possibul the AI simply lost the information on why it was maintaining the Matrix; it might originally have been some form of interrogation system to let them directly access human memories or something like that. A human EMP might have screwed up the system and left the AI unable to determine the point of it but also making it too concerned to risk shutting it down.

Meanwhile Zion doesn’t even know what year it is and may just have theories on why the AI maintains the Matrix.
Even if both sides are ignorant of the true history, that does not excuse the inconceivable stupidity required for them to believe that their own explanation makes sense. How could they design and build these high-tech hovercraft without knowing anything about elementary thermodynamics?

robots do it. they mention that in matrix 2 - the conselor and super neo dont have a clue how its made.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-05-19 03:35pm

Hey, if they think running humans as a power source is a good idea, how smart could they possibly be?

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2003-05-19 05:36pm

neoolong wrote:Hey, if they think running humans as a power source is a good idea, how smart could they possibly be?

Only as smart as their creators.

Robert Treder · Post by **Robert Treder** » 2003-05-19 05:51pm

Enforcer Talen wrote:robots do it. they mention that in matrix 2 - the conselor and super neo dont have a clue how its made.

Neo is a soldier and that Councilor is clearly a religious and political leader. There's no real reason for them to have understanding of the technology keeping them alive. There must be engineers, physicists, mechanics, and other scientists and technicians that do understand the workings and principles of the machines.

Newtonian Fury · Post by **Newtonian Fury** » 2003-05-19 06:16pm

Robert Treder wrote:There must be engineers, physicists, mechanics, and other scientists and technicians that do understand the workings and principles of the machines.

Not necessarily. These people live in a virtual world for most of their lives, and the "physics" in a virtual world can be anything you program it to be. It's quite possible that the machines created a virtual world with physics "laws" inherently different from the real world. End result: no one knows real world physics.

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2003-05-19 08:17pm

Newtonian Fury wrote: Not necessarily. These people live in a virtual world for most of their lives, and the "physics" in a virtual world can be anything you program it to be.

It's simply rediculous to think that the machines created a new type of physics for the Matrix. For such a thing to happen, they would have to program EVERY single program differently than it would be using real world physics, which they already have plenty of data on.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-05-19 08:23pm

DPDarkPrimus wrote:
Newtonian Fury wrote: Not necessarily. These people live in a virtual world for most of their lives, and the "physics" in a virtual world can be anything you program it to be.
It's simply rediculous to think that the machines created a new type of physics for the Matrix. For such a thing to happen, they would have to program EVERY single program differently than it would be using real world physics, which they already have plenty of data on.

It may be ridiculous, but it's also observed. The program allows impossible movements such as a man flying on his own power.

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2003-05-19 08:38pm

As all programs, there are ways to bend, bypass, or ignore rules. The agents are capable of bypassing the laws of physics when they dodge bullets, for example.

I really should have said something like that in that post.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-05-19 08:43pm

even within a program, laws of physics are not absolute. you dont even need to bend them, simply ignore them. if the program is trying accelerate your body downward, simply keep your world coordinates at whatever height. Simply do not allow whatever changes are trying to be made to actually be made.

In other words, make your variables write-to only by you

Drooling Iguana · Post by **Drooling Iguana** » 2003-05-19 08:50pm

DPDarkPrimus wrote:It's simply rediculous to think that the machines created a new type of physics for the Matrix. For such a thing to happen, they would have to program EVERY single program differently than it would be using real world physics, which they already have plenty of data on.

The laws of physics allow the Universe to be a consistant, self-running system. There's no reason why The Matrix must also be a consistant, self-running system. Code can and is changed arbitrarily as the machines see fit.

Starscream · Post by **Starscream** » 2003-05-20 01:23am

Darth Wong wrote:
DPDarkPrimus wrote:
Newtonian Fury wrote: Not necessarily. These people live in a virtual world for most of their lives, and the "physics" in a virtual world can be anything you program it to be.
It's simply rediculous to think that the machines created a new type of physics for the Matrix. For such a thing to happen, they would have to program EVERY single program differently than it would be using real world physics, which they already have plenty of data on.
It may be ridiculous, but it's also observed. The program allows impossible movements such as a man flying on his own power.

It doesn't allow this, Neo is the only one that can do it because he has the ability to alter the rules of the Matrix. That's why Morpheus told him that the Agents would never be as fast, strong, etc. as him, because they are constrained by the laws operating the matrix.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-05-20 09:43am

Starscream wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:It may be ridiculous, but it's also observed. The program allows impossible movements such as a man flying on his own power.
It doesn't allow this, Neo is the only one that can do it because he has the ability to alter the rules of the Matrix. That's why Morpheus told him that the Agents would never be as fast, strong, etc. as him, because they are constrained by the laws operating the matrix.

You can't arbitrarily change the rules of software. You can only exploit loopholes in those rules, which implies that the software has bugs. If this is the case, then the laws of physics (which are really just the rules of the software) have exploitable bugs, which in turn means that they're different from the laws of physics in the real universe.

Zoink · Post by **Zoink** » 2003-05-20 10:18am

They made a comment on machines w/o "human power" in Reloaded, but I can't really comment on it here because of the 'no spoiler' topic. It’s in the speech from THE guy that Neo meets.

EDIT: typo king of SD.net

Starscream · Post by **Starscream** » 2003-05-20 01:11pm

Zoink wrote:They made a comment on machines w/o "human power" in Reloaded, but I can't really comment on it here because of the 'no spoiler' topic. It’s in the speech from THE guy that Neo meets.

EDIT: typo king of SD.net

Spoiler: He said that the machines would be willing to settle for a lesser level of existence without human beings.

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-05-20 01:43pm

Darth Wong wrote:
DPDarkPrimus wrote:
Newtonian Fury wrote: Not necessarily. These people live in a virtual world for most of their lives, and the "physics" in a virtual world can be anything you program it to be.
It's simply rediculous to think that the machines created a new type of physics for the Matrix. For such a thing to happen, they would have to program EVERY single program differently than it would be using real world physics, which they already have plenty of data on.
It may be ridiculous, but it's also observed. The program allows impossible movements such as a man flying on his own power.

Don't forget that since The Matrix only is a computer program, manipulating it the right way practically makes anything possible. For some reason, I'd like to see a Matrix spin-off showing Neo doing Scorpion's "hook attack" from Mortal Kombat.

Zoink · Post by **Zoink** » 2003-05-20 01:53pm

I wonder if they got it partially wrong in the first movie. The source for the information on "human-energy" was Morpheus' crew, who probably don’t know the exact reason machines need humans... which the second movie addresses with several vague points, but again it would be a spoiler (maybe I'll write something and post it in off-topic later).

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-05-20 01:59pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Starscream wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:It may be ridiculous, but it's also observed. The program allows impossible movements such as a man flying on his own power.
It doesn't allow this, Neo is the only one that can do it because he has the ability to alter the rules of the Matrix. That's why Morpheus told him that the Agents would never be as fast, strong, etc. as him, because they are constrained by the laws operating the matrix.
You can't arbitrarily change the rules of software. You can only exploit loopholes in those rules, which implies that the software has bugs. If this is the case, then the laws of physics (which are really just the rules of the software) have exploitable bugs, which in turn means that they're different from the laws of physics in the real universe.

And what's Neo? A program that's meant to collect bugs and report them to the Source...

Seriously. This is DeCartes argument. The machines could be throwing them a curve on every single peice of physics, and they'll never be the wiser. You're lucky we had Locke, or we'd be debating if math was the same between the real and Matrix.

David · Post by **David** » 2003-05-20 03:45pm

LOL how do the machines know what chicken tastes like? Everything is suspect in the Matrix.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-05-20 03:48pm

SirNitram wrote:And what's Neo? A program that's meant to collect bugs and report them to the Source...

Nitpick: Actually Neo is a person.

Spoiler: The One is a "program."

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-05-20 07:25pm

I think that Neo is more or less equivalent to a Game Shark. He doesn't change the laws of physics; he simply alters the values of the input variables. So, if he was going to punch someone, he changes either the velocity or mass variable corresponding to his fist to some insanely high number, so The Matrix spits out an insanely high value for momentum.

After all, each person in The Matrix must have a file or database entry corresponding to his or her physical attributes. Neo could have found a way to just alter his dynamically. Of course, this begs the question of why the system administrator hasn't just deleted his account. You'd think they'd have found a way to assign every brain the equivalent of a MAC address and be able to lock them out from logging into The Matrix.

The other possibility is that there is an agent flag on each person in The Matrix. Normally, only agents have this flag set to 1. Neo could have simply hacked his account and made himself an agent/admin. Though his continued presence in the system does speak volumes of the administrative incompetence of the machines.

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2003-05-20 07:33pm

Clearly, Neo is nothing more than a smartass playing the game in "God Mode"

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-05-20 07:50pm

Colonel Olrik wrote:Clearly, Neo is nothing more than a smartass playing the game in "God Mode"

Cheating haxor is ruining for the rest of us.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-05-21 12:13am

Colonel Olrik wrote:Clearly, Neo is nothing more than a smartass playing the game in "God Mode"

Silly machines ... didn't update their PunkBuster server.

Joe Momma · Post by **Joe Momma** » 2003-05-21 12:40am

Durandal wrote:
Colonel Olrik wrote:Clearly, Neo is nothing more than a smartass playing the game in "God Mode"
Silly machines ... didn't update their PunkBuster server.

The Ghost Twins are using a wall-hack! KICK THEM!

-- Joe Momma