Time Travel Shenanigans (Split from Aly's ICS thread)

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2003-05-20 04:07pm

Although it's probably been mentioned countless times before, the Federation has one advatage over the Empire:

They have an uncanny ability to screw around with time travel. Go far enough back in time, and the Feddies could overwhelm the earliest Republic forces or whatever that universe started out as (-30,000 years?)...

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-05-20 04:16pm

Well, congratulations Alyeska. You've taken your first step into a larger world.

jegs2 wrote:Although it's probably been mentioned countless times before, the Federation has one advatage over the Empire:

They have an uncanny ability to screw around with time travel. Go far enough back in time, and the Feddies could overwhelm the earliest Republic forces or whatever that universe started out as (-30,000 years?)...

Oh really?

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2003-05-20 04:17pm

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:Well, congratulations Alyeska. You've taken your first step into a larger world.

jegs2 wrote:Although it's probably been mentioned countless times before, the Federation has one advatage over the Empire:

They have an uncanny ability to screw around with time travel. Go far enough back in time, and the Feddies could overwhelm the earliest Republic forces or whatever that universe started out as (-30,000 years?)...
Oh really?

Read all that many moons ago, but don't recall anything about Imperial time travel...

Iceberg · Post by **Iceberg** » 2003-05-20 05:08pm

jegs2 wrote:
Darth Garden Gnome wrote:Well, congratulations Alyeska. You've taken your first step into a larger world.

jegs2 wrote:Although it's probably been mentioned countless times before, the Federation has one advatage over the Empire:

They have an uncanny ability to screw around with time travel. Go far enough back in time, and the Feddies could overwhelm the earliest Republic forces or whatever that universe started out as (-30,000 years?)...
Oh really?
Read all that many moons ago, but don't recall anything about Imperial time travel...

Federation time travel appears to have a maximum forward/back temporal range of six centuries or so, and it's questionable whether they're actually time-traveling or merely hopping into a different timeline.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-05-20 06:01pm

Iceberg wrote:it's questionable whether they're actually time-traveling or merely hopping into a different timeline.

Actualy we have seen examples of both. It would seem the Federation has access to both types of travel.

Shogoki · Post by **Shogoki** » 2003-05-20 06:22pm

Infinite universes theory is the only one than makes any sense, if you ask me. So Time Travel is just leaving all your problems behind, hence, admitting defeat.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-05-20 06:43pm

Shogoki wrote:Infinite universes theory is the only one than makes any sense, if you ask me. So Time Travel is just leaving all your problems behind, hence, admitting defeat.

The problem is we have seen examples of things in the past affecting things in the future. There have been examples of both types of time travel.

Iceberg · Post by **Iceberg** » 2003-05-20 08:07pm

Alyeska wrote:
Shogoki wrote:Infinite universes theory is the only one than makes any sense, if you ask me. So Time Travel is just leaving all your problems behind, hence, admitting defeat.
The problem is we have seen examples of things in the past affecting things in the future. There have been examples of both types of time travel.

What it really comes down to, then, is sloppy writing, the bane of rational analysis of fictional universes.

Soulman · Post by **Soulman** » 2003-05-22 05:17pm

Iceberg wrote: Federation time travel appears to have a maximum forward/back temporal range of six centuries or so, and it's questionable whether they're actually time-traveling or merely hopping into a different timeline.

To defeat the Empire (assuming they can time travel within the same timeline) they wouldn't have to travel more than, say a century into the past. Go back in time with information from the future and do research from it. A day before the Imps arrive do it again, and again and again. Do it 2 or 3 dozen times and you'd at least have parity with them if not be able to defeat them.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-05-22 05:26pm

could they even understand tech from 100 yrs before the movie?

Jawawithagun · Post by **Jawawithagun** » 2003-05-22 06:57pm

going back in time 25k years the Feddies try to free the galaxy from a menace calling himself Xim the Despot.

I SO want to see them fail there!

YT300000 · Post by **YT300000** » 2003-05-22 08:22pm

Even if the feddies could go back in time and stop any galactic government from existing, without wiping themselves out of existence, whatever they change branches off into another timeline. In that timeline, they won, but in the one the Empire still exists in, they are screwed.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-05-22 08:40pm

YT300000 wrote:Even if the feddies could go back in time and stop any galactic government from existing, without wiping themselves out of existence, whatever they change branches off into another timeline. In that timeline, they won, but in the one the Empire still exists in, they are screwed.

Are you not paying attention? We have examples of the Federation having Time Travel technology that avoids the alternate timeline issue.

YT300000 · Post by **YT300000** » 2003-05-22 08:45pm

Alyeska wrote:
YT300000 wrote:Even if the feddies could go back in time and stop any galactic government from existing, without wiping themselves out of existence, whatever they change branches off into another timeline. In that timeline, they won, but in the one the Empire still exists in, they are screwed.
Are you not paying attention? We have examples of the Federation having Time Travel technology that avoids the alternate timeline issue.

How do you know they avoid the issue? Isn't it just as likely that we see the rest of such an episode from the newly-created timeline? Or are there specific quotes in which the Treknology which makes this possible is described? If there are, I conceed the point.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-05-22 08:50pm

YT300000 wrote:
Alyeska wrote:
YT300000 wrote:Even if the feddies could go back in time and stop any galactic government from existing, without wiping themselves out of existence, whatever they change branches off into another timeline. In that timeline, they won, but in the one the Empire still exists in, they are screwed.
Are you not paying attention? We have examples of the Federation having Time Travel technology that avoids the alternate timeline issue.
How do you know they avoid the issue? Isn't it just as likely that we see the rest of such an episode from the newly-created timeline? Or are there specific quotes in which the Treknology which makes this possible is described? If there are, I conceed the point.

In certain episodes we note that time travel changes the current time line and that Voyager was able to avoid this with Temporal shields. There are repeated examples where the time line is singular and the changes are affecting that time line alone.

Shogoki · Post by **Shogoki** » 2003-05-23 04:31am

Alyeska wrote:
Shogoki wrote:Infinite universes theory is the only one than makes any sense, if you ask me. So Time Travel is just leaving all your problems behind, hence, admitting defeat.
The problem is we have seen examples of things in the past affecting things in the future. There have been examples of both types of time travel.

That's not really a problem, the "future universe" is just one that on the past was affected by someone who looked like you, remember, in infinite universes there are more than just you trying to do what you want to do, some fail, some dont, and you only keep contact with universes that more closely approch what you want to do and do, you lose contact with your original universe.

KhyronTheBackstabber · Post by **KhyronTheBackstabber** » 2003-05-23 05:47am

Wait, if you destroyed the Empire in the past, then they won't ever be your enemy, then you won't have to send a force to destroy them, and then they will be your enemy so you will have to send a force back-

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2003-05-23 07:40am

The Morlocks arrive, and Eat Kathryn Janeway, and die of food poisoning.

Iceberg · Post by **Iceberg** » 2003-05-23 11:19am

Soulman wrote:
Iceberg wrote: Federation time travel appears to have a maximum forward/back temporal range of six centuries or so, and it's questionable whether they're actually time-traveling or merely hopping into a different timeline.
To defeat the Empire (assuming they can time travel within the same timeline) they wouldn't have to travel more than, say a century into the past. Go back in time with information from the future and do research from it. A day before the Imps arrive do it again, and again and again. Do it 2 or 3 dozen times and you'd at least have parity with them if not be able to defeat them.

The Time Lords of Gallifrey show up and tuck your ass nicely into a little self-enclosing time loop, and you get excluded from the timestream for fucking it up too much.

Try again.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-05-23 11:40am

KhyronTheBackstabber wrote:Wait, if you destroyed the Empire in the past, then they won't ever be your enemy, then you won't have to send a force to destroy them, and then they will be your enemy so you will have to send a force back-

That is where temporal shielding comes into play. On multiple occassions we have seen temporal shielding used to protect the "Now" froim changes in the past. The 29th century Federation uses them on time ships so that if someone violates the temporal prime directive, these ships can send crew back to correct history.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-05-23 11:41am

Alyeska wrote:That is where temporal shielding comes into play. On multiple occassions we have seen temporal shielding used to protect the "Now" froim changes in the past. The 29th century Federation uses them on time ships so that if someone violates the temporal prime directive, these ships can send crew back to correct history.

That's the most assinine thing I've ever heard.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-05-23 11:58am

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
Alyeska wrote:That is where temporal shielding comes into play. On multiple occassions we have seen temporal shielding used to protect the "Now" froim changes in the past. The 29th century Federation uses them on time ships so that if someone violates the temporal prime directive, these ships can send crew back to correct history.

That's the most assinine thing I've ever heard.

How so? When you posses time travel technology within the same timeline, you need a way to protect yourself from possible changes. That is what Temporal shields do. Voyager also used primitive temporal shielding to protect itself against the Time Ship in the Year of Hell episodes.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-05-23 11:59am

Prove that the Federation can travel back far enough to actually have a chance of victory- i.e. no limits fallacy.

Furthermore- can anyone figure out what's wrong with this:

"Well, sure America would kick Iraq's ass ... but if Iraq went back in time to 1914 with it's 1991 equipment, it would kick ass!"

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-05-23 12:01pm

Vympel wrote:Prove that the Federation can travel back far enough to actually have a chance of victory- i.e. no limits fallacy.

Seeing as there is no known limit on distance that can be traveled, this is a meaningless argument.

Furthermore- can anyone figure out what's wrong with this:

"Well, sure America would kick Iraq's ass ... but if Iraq went back in time to 1914 with it's 1991 equipment, it would kick ass!"

Some would say its being absurd, maybe even unfair. Thing is, in an all out war the only important thing is victory. I have no doubt that any side facing total annihilation would use every resource at its grasp.

JodoForce · Post by **JodoForce** » 2003-05-23 12:11pm

Well, if you say that the changes happen in the same timeline, when are they supposed to notice?

Let's see. Somebody messes up something in 19xx. One moment in 20xx everything is as normal, the next moment everything is screwed up because of the change. WHY? Shouldn't things be changed such that everyone born after the 19xx event would see things develop according to the new timeline for their whole lives?

The 'temporal shield'--it would probably have to protect the shipyard that built it in the first place, since it probably wouldn't be there in the changed timeline! How does this protection happen? Does the shipyard spring up out of nowhere when it's due to start building the ship in the original timeline??