Matrix Reloaded Discussion [Spoilers, Matrix Reloaded]

zombie84 · Post by **zombie84** » 2003-05-20 03:05pm

Maybe the Smith part of him allows him to. After all, Smith seemed to have power to "order" the sentinels to destroy the Neb in the first film. Maybe the electronic devices inside Neo's brain act as a transmitter somhow. Who knows. But all the evidence is there. We dont really have any way of knowing since we dont know what the inner-workings of the computer components of Neo's brain are like. It doesnt really matter anyway. The fact is that it happens and i explained how that is possible. This isnt Star Trek where we need detailed schematics of his brain and the machines CPU.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-05-20 03:09pm

zombie84 wrote:Maybe the Smith part of him allows him to.

Rewriting the code controlling my computer will still not allow it to transmit wirelessly.

After all, Smith seemed to have power to "order" the sentinels to destroy the Neb in the first film.

That's because he's in the Matrix and can send a signal along that computer.

Maybe the electronic devices inside Neo's brain act as a transmitter somhow. Who knows. But all the evidence is there.

Not really. Nothing to suggest that it can do it without an actual physical connection.

We dont really have any way of knowing since we dont know what the inner-workings of the computer components of Neo's brain are like. It doesnt really matter anyway. The fact is that it happens and i explained how that is possible. This isnt Star Trek where we need detailed schematics of his brain and the machines CPU.

No, but you do need to show that he can even transmit without saying that we don't know how the thing works so it works like I say it does.

It has ended up like he has somehow gained telepathy somehow. The Matrix within the Matrix is supported much better by this event, despite my disliking of the idea. I have to admit it is the better theory.

Try Occam's Razor.

zombie84 · Post by **zombie84** » 2003-05-20 03:24pm

It can be explained in the third film. Right now, we do not know how exactly the computer components of Neo mind work. It is certainly possible that there is some sort of transmitter/reciever. Perhaps Smith altered the existing hardware when part of him entered Neo's mind. We dont really know for sure, nor does it matter. If the Oracle tells Neo in Revolutions "Smith's fusion allowed the computer parts of your brain to be converted into transceivers of electronic data from other machines" then that will suffice and nothing more is needed. We dont need a technical explaination of exactly how, only that it does. This is not a lesson in future electronics, it is a great epic story, and that is the first priority. If a few technical points have to be sacrificed in order to better the story then so be it. The Wachowski's are not interesting in writting Star Trek. The point is that my explanation works, even if we do not know minute details pertaining to the nature of the inner-workings of the technology.

You are right it does appear that he has some sort of metaphysical telepathy. That is the point. That is why there are prophecies and messiahs and oracles. The film is filled with tons of archtypal myth elements. Each one of these deeply mythological elements is also broken down in each film and given a rational explanation. This new telepathy ability will also be explained, as i have above. And that explaination is sufficient for the film, even if techies will be wondering how every little computer part works.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-05-20 03:33pm

zombie84 wrote:It can be explained in the third film. Right now, we do not know how exactly the computer components of Neo mind work. It is certainly possible that there is some sort of transmitter/reciever. Perhaps Smith altered the existing hardware when part of him entered Neo's mind.

Changing the software will not result in a hardware change of that magnitude.

We dont really know for sure, nor does it matter. If the Oracle tells Neo in Revolutions "Smith's fusion allowed the computer parts of your brain to be converted into transceivers of electronic data from other machines" then that will suffice and nothing more is needed. We dont need a technical explaination of exactly how, only that it does.

However, there is not such evidence to support this position yet and the evidence as of now points in the opposite direction.

This is not a lesson in future electronics, it is a great epic story, and that is the first priority. If a few technical points have to be sacrificed in order to better the story then so be it. The Wachowski's are not interesting in writting Star Trek. The point is that my explanation works, even if we do not know minute details pertaining to the nature of the inner-workings of the technology.

It works only in that you make up stuff to make it work. Based on what we have seen in the movies, the other view is much more supported.

You are right it does appear that he has some sort of metaphysical telepathy. That is the point.

Which comes out of nowhere.

That is why there are prophecies and messiahs and oracles.

Actually they're there because the Machines couldn't figure out a way to do what they wanted correctly.

The film is filled with tons of archtypal myth elements. Each one of these deeply mythological elements is also broken down in each film and given a rational explanation. This new telepathy ability will also be explained, as i have above. And that explaination is sufficient for the film, even if techies will be wondering how every little computer part works.

Again, you're missing the point. Your speculation does not support the facts as we see them in the movie. And merely making up stuff to make your theory fit doesn't make it any stronger.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-05-20 05:19pm

Basically its a bunch of babble. The best theory by hard in-movie observations and application of Ockam's Razor is that the Real World is part of the Matrix.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-05-20 05:53pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Basically its a bunch of babble. The best theory by hard in-movie observations and application of Ockam's Razor is that the Real World is part of the Matrix.

WTF?!

IP and I agree on something?!

zombie84 · Post by **zombie84** » 2003-05-20 06:22pm

There seems to be a lot of confusion regarding how the second Matrix is an impossibility and how there is sufficient evidence within the film to support that the Real World is the Real World. Im compiling a list of reasons why the Real World is Real.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-05-20 06:29pm

Mmmkay, after reading over some of the Reloaded threads at Slashdot, I concede that I was mistaken; at the moment, it does appear that Zion is just another level of the Matrix (although I do maintain that the 99.9 percent thing was bad writing, since it doesn't explain how the remaining 0.1 percent will accept the second, equally false Matrix on the unconscious level).

I also read some more interesting stuff; Neo's reawakening in the second Matrix can be compared to his reawakening in the first, since it was only after those reawakenings that he could use his full powers. There's also the fact that this Neo is the sixth incarnation, which has a Biblical parallel; "on the Sixth Day, God Created Man..." Coincidence? Maybe not, as the savior of humanity it could be said that Neo will recreate free man, in a sense. Interesting, nonetheless.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-05-20 06:53pm

Durran Korr wrote:Mmmkay, after reading over some of the Reloaded threads at Slashdot, I concede that I was mistaken; at the moment, it does appear that Zion is just another level of the Matrix (although I do maintain that the 99.9 percent thing was bad writing, since it doesn't explain how the remaining 0.1 percent will accept the second, equally false Matrix on the unconscious level).

My argument isn't that they can accept this second layer, but that they're being kept too busy and worried to consider the possibility.

I also read some more interesting stuff; Neo's reawakening in the second Matrix can be compared to his reawakening in the first, since it was only after those reawakenings that he could use his full powers. There's also the fact that this Neo is the sixth incarnation, which has a Biblical parallel; "on the Sixth Day, God Created Man..." Coincidence? Maybe not, as the savior of humanity it could be said that Neo will recreate free man, in a sense. Interesting, nonetheless.

Quite, many religious/mythical parallels. Persephone, for example, trapped by a husband she hates, who controls mystical beasts.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-05-20 06:54pm

zombie84 wrote:There seems to be a lot of confusion regarding how the second Matrix is an impossibility and how there is sufficient evidence within the film to support that the Real World is the Real World. Im compiling a list of reasons why the Real World is Real.

If you insist, but you're kinda missing the point of the Cartesian Nightmare if you think one can prove something is real. The point is we consider things real until we have reason to doubt, and Neo's actions are clearly there to make us doubt.

zombie84 · Post by **zombie84** » 2003-05-20 07:53pm

Here is the end-all to the Matrix-within-a-matrix theory:

the first and most important

HUMANS ARE GUARANTEED TO WAKE UP

This is of utmost importance. The problem with the Matrix is that some people keep waking up. 99% of the people plugged into the Matrix accept it, but 1% will inevitable wake up and rebel. The machines cannot stop this. To deal with this, the Prophecy and the One are created. The machine know that they cannot stop the rebellion so what can they do? control it. The prophecy and the One ensure that this small rebellion, though it cannot be prevented, can be controlled.
Therefore a matrix-within-a-matrix is useless. Humans are guaranteed to wake up from the second Matrix as well, and rebel against the machines. This is why the One and the prophecy were created; the second Matrix won’t solve anything, the prophecy and the One will. This is the firewall—The Prophecy and the One. Not a second Matrix—that is useless. The second Matrix theory fails on this point alone. No more arguing is needed, but I will still provide further proof.

IF THERE IS A SECOND MATRIX, THE ONE IS USELESS

The point of the One and the prophecy is to control the rebellion. The rebellion is inevitable, therefore it cannot be stopped and instead must be shaped according to the machines desire. If there is a second Matrix, the One becomes useless; though the humans are rebelling, they are ultimately still prisoners in another Matrix—therefore they cannot do harm to the actual machine mainframe. Therefore, the rebellion can be of no threat to the machines because they are not actually rebelling against anything and cannot access the Real World.
Not only does the prophecy and the One become useless, Neo and the entire story becomes useless. The Matrix is about the human rebellion from it; if the rebellion is useless then what is the point of the story? In order for the second Matrix to be of any significance, it must be adequetly explored, explained and resolved and less than one film is not enough for this. The story becomes ridiculously cluttered with plot twists to the point of near-satire. Occam’s razor applies here.

THERE IS NOTHING TO SUGGEST THE REAL WORLD IS FAKE

Forget the part at the end when Neo stops the Sentinels in the Real World. That will be explained later. Now, excluding this instance, what evidence is there to suggest that the Real World is fake? In the Matrix, a small number of people sense that all was not right; these were the people that woke up and rebelled (as it was inevitable). What is there to suggest the Real World is fake? In the Matrix, agents can move faster than sound, people can leap over buildings and great explosions cause ripples in the fabric of the Matrix. Nothing of the sort happens in the Real World. Therefore, what reason is there to believe it is false?

THERE COULD BE AN INFINITE AMOUNT OF MATRIX'S

"If what is real is what you can touch and smell and taste, then real is simply electrical impulses interpreted by your brain" as Morpheus says in the first film. Indeed, just how can he be sure the Real World is real? He cant! There is no way of knowing. So what, suppose he wakes up somehow, and is revealed to be in yet another real world. He says to himself "my god it was all just another matrix, good thing i'm out". But how can he be sure that that world is real? He cant! So somehow he wakes up again. How he be sure that that world is real? You see what im saying? When you apply rules of logic and perception of reality, you get lost in an maze of logic where an infinite amount of Matrix's could exist and nothing could ever truely be real. Therefore you just have to trust your sense. Our Matrix was discovered to be false because people just didnt feel right, like “a dream that they were waiting to wake up from”. People can jump around buildings and agents can assimilate people. The reason people woke up from the Matrix was that the knew that it was fake—human rebellion is inevitable. This does not happen in the Real World, which is why it has to be trusted to be real. If you disregard this, then there could be an infinite amount of Matrix’s and this is just ludicrous. We have top accept what is real until we have reason to doubt it—Neo actions at the end are perfectly explained. I shall do that now…

So now that we have established that a second Matrix is functionless and baseless, lets move on to explain the events in the Real World.

NEO AND SMITH FUSED

This fact is of utmost importance. When Neo killed agent Smith in the first film, part of Neo was copied over to Smith. This much is clear. Smith also states that the two are now linked somehow. This is because not only did Smith gain some of Neo’s abilities, but Neo in turn, gained some of Smiths abilities. Neo can now control machines in the Real World, and this is how he is able to stop the Sentinels in the real world. Why was this not explicitly stated? This is to be the final revelation in the third film. Neo’s ability to control both the Real World and the Matrix is what allows him to ultimately break the Reload cycle and bring victory to the humans. Hence the third film—Matrix: Revolutions.

The twist in the first film is that what we believe to be our real world is really a simulation called the Matrix.
The twist in the second film is that the One and the Prophecy are merely a set of controls that cannot be stopped.
The twist in the third film is that Neo stops them. The twist is that his fusion with Smith allows him to control both the Real and Matrix worlds, and this allows the humans to win—Matrix:Revolutions

Now that it has been established that Neo’s abilities in the Real World are the result of his fusion with Smith, lets explore how this is possible…

A PROGRAM CAN EXIST OUTSIDE OF THE MATRIX

Computer data from the Matrix can exist in the Real World. This is shown in the films. Towards the beginning of Reloaded, we see Smith absorb Bane. The phone then rings and Smith answers it downloading back into Bane’s mind. That is why Bane is trying to assassinate Neo. So if Neo’s new abilities are the result of computer data fusing into him, and Bane is the result of computer data assimilating him, how is it possible for computer data to come into the Real World? The answer:

HUMAN BRAINS ARE MODIFIED FOR COMPUTER DATA INPUT/OUTPUT

When people 'jack in' to the Matrix, an electronic stem is connected directly to their brains, which have been fused with mechanical and electronical parts to allow for electronic input and output (i.e. the Matrix). This is how they can simply download information directly to their brain and enter the electronic simulation of the Matrix. Therefore, the data from Smith's program itself could be inputted directly into Neo's brain when they fused. In fact, Smith does this exact same with Bane. He absorbs him, and then when the phone rings, he downloads himself back into the Bane’s brain. Therefore, a program can exist in the real world, through the use of humans because their brains allow for input and output of computer data. The human brain has the ability to be used as a host for computer data.

Now, the question has been raised: though a brain can carry this computer data, how can the information be transmitted to order the sentinels to stop?

THE "HOW" ISN'T IMPORTANT

Maybe the electronic devices inside Neo's brain act as a transmitter somehow. Who knows. But all the evidence is there. We don’t really have any way of knowing since we dont know what the inner-workings of the computer components of Neo's brain are like. It doesnt really matter anyway. The fact is that it happens and i explained how that is possible. This isnt Star Trek, where we need detailed schematics of his brain and the machines CPU.
The point is, there wasn’t time to explain it in the second film. The film is supposed to end with you not knowing exactly how he did it. It will be explained in the conclusion. Right now, we do not know how exactly the computer components of Neo mind work. It is certainly possible that there is some sort of transmitter/reciever. Perhaps Smith altered the function of the existing hardware when part of him entered Neo's mind. We don’t really know for sure, nor does it matter. If the Oracle tells Neo in Revolutions "Smith's fusion allowed the computer parts of your brain to be converted into transceivers of electronic data from other machines" then that will suffice and nothing more is needed. We dont need a technical explanation of exactly how, only that it does. This is not a lesson in future electronics, it is a great epic story, and that is the first priority. If a few technical points have to be sacrificed in order to better the story then so be it. The Wachowski's are not interesting in writing Star Trek. The point is that my explanation works, even if we do not know minute details pertaining to the nature of the inner-workings of the technology.
As the film ends, it appears that he has some sort of metaphysical telepathy. That is the point. The film is filled with tons of archetypal myth elements. That is why there are prophecies and messiahs and oracles--each one of these deeply mythological elements is also broken down in each film and given a rational explanation. This new telepathy ability will also be explained, as i have above. And that explanation is sufficient for the film, even if techies will be wondering how every little computer part works. Which leads to the final part…

THE MATRIX IS A MOVIE

This must also be taken into consideration. The Matrix is a story; things are simplified and liberties taken to ensure that the film follows certain structures. The film very closely follows Joseph Campbell’s Hero's Journey, and the Wachowski’s certainly studied their myths. The Matrix is no Star Trek. It is a deep, mythological film—in spirit, it resembles Star Wars and Lord of the Ring, epic fantasy’s, more than anything else. When the second Matrix is introduced, the character arc and story structure is completely ruined. There are many examples, but here is a easy one: redundant storytelling.
If the second Matrix pans out then this is the story structure:

The first movie—what we perceive as reality is the Matrix
The second movie—the prophecy and the One are just another set of controls
The third movie—what we perceive as reality is the Matrix

It is bad storytelling, and the Wachowski’s are not bad storytellers. If the second Matrix idea pans out then Neo journey is also effectively wiped out. His bonding with Smith, progression of god-powers, and final destruction of the Matrix perfectly continue the journey. This does not occur if there are multiple Matrix’s. There is a mythic structure to the films that people who study myth and storytelling will pick up on. Speaking as a writer and a director myself, I can tell you it is very well laid out. The second Matrix ultimately shatters this.

The problem is that you people are looking at it more as science fiction, more like the way trekkies would scrutinize a Star Trek film. Matrix is myth. Certain things can be simplified and other technical things glazed over.
If you want to look at the films with absolute logic then, as I said earlier, there is an infinite amount of Matrix’s. Nothing could ever be real. Wouldn’t the ultimate failsafe for the machines be to devise a system where an infinite amount of Matrix’s is created that is unescapable? But for storytelling purposes, this is not feasible.
There are also design motif’s—the Real World carries a blue bias to the cinematography, wheras Matrix carries a green bias to the cinematography and everything is gridlike, like a computer; grid wall-tiles and set design reoccur, and holes occasionally show through in the functioning of the Matrix (ie ripples in space, déjà vu, etc.).
These are just but a few of the many indications.

IN CONCLUSION

The Real World is real. The fact that the humans would ultimately wake up, even if another Matrix was created is enough to prove this. The problem with the Matrix was that the machines could not stop people from rebelling—it was guaranteed. So, to fix this unsolvable problem, they create the Prophecy and the One to control it. But even beyond this solitary reason, there are numerous and plenty of reason as to why the Real World is Real. There is no disputing these, and the second Matrix ultimately fails, aside from the storytelling flaw.

The Real World is Real. There is no second Matrix.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-05-20 08:02pm

In other words, you entire long post is 'Throw out logic, throw out reason, just believe me! PLEASE!'

NOTHING SUGGESTS NEO COULD SUDDENLY BROADCAST. DEAL WITH THIS FACT. TAKE YOUR MUM'S ELSEWHERE: WE HAVEN'T PUT UP WITH THAT SHIT, NOT FROM DARKSTAR, NOT FROM ANYONE ELSE.

Post by **weemadando** » 2003-05-20 08:11pm

SirNitram wrote:In other words, you entire long post is 'Throw out logic, throw out reason, just believe me! PLEASE!'

Its an "appeal to authority - who's really me!" fallacy.

This is DarkStar Lite.

zombie84 · Post by **zombie84** » 2003-05-20 08:32pm

how the hell do you figure that!?

I've broken down each reason. There are no appeals to authority in there. Its insulting to be compared to Darkstar. You dont even seem to be adressing any of the points.

firstly explain how a second matrix makes any sense when humans are guaranteed to wake up from it. That is why the prophecy and the One were created--they were the only solution to the inherant unsolvable problem of human rebellion. Did you people even read what i posted? I used nothing but logic.

Drooling Iguana · Post by **Drooling Iguana** » 2003-05-20 08:50pm

If The Matrix was real, and what we see in these movies was acually happening, then I'd agree that the only possible scenario would be that the "real world" is actually a second Matrix. However, The Matrix isn't real, it's a movie, written by a couple of guys who thinks that they can substitute some cool fight scenes and quasi-philosophical wanking for a story. Logic and the laws of physics have no place within the fantasy the Wachowskis have created, so I think it's far more likely that the fictional city of Zion occupied the fictional "real world" and not a second fictional Matrix.

But really, it's not worth getting too worked up about, since we'll get all our answers in a matter of months.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-05-20 09:04pm

Drooling Iguana wrote:If The Matrix was real, and what we see in these movies was acually happening, then I'd agree that the only possible scenario would be that the "real world" is actually a second Matrix. However, The Matrix isn't real, it's a movie, written by a couple of guys who thinks that they can substitute some cool fight scenes and quasi-philosophical wanking for a story. Logic and the laws of physics have no place within the fantasy the Wachowskis have created, so I think it's far more likely that the fictional city of Zion occupied the fictional "real world" and not a second fictional Matrix.

But really, it's not worth getting too worked up about, since we'll get all our answers in a matter of months.

I agree. Everything supports a 2nd matrix. But I don't think it would happen stylistically.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-05-20 10:20pm

weemadando wrote:
SirNitram wrote:In other words, you entire long post is 'Throw out logic, throw out reason, just believe me! PLEASE!'
Its an "appeal to authority - who's really me!" fallacy.

This is DarkStar Lite.

I disagree. It's got the trademark 'Throw out logic and go with the unknown mechanism to give me the answer I want' of Darkstar's superlaser theory. No WoI, though.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-05-20 10:45pm

zombie84 wrote:THE "HOW" ISN'T IMPORTANT

Concession Accepted.

And by the way:

Enough of your "I AM RIGHT JOO R STUPID" nonsense. I told you to cut the sanctimonious stuff before.

Anarchist Bunny · Post by **Anarchist Bunny** » 2003-05-20 10:54pm

I'm not convinced that Zion is another Matrix. It just doesn't make sense with the drillings when they could load agents into the people in Zion and kill off the rest, unplug them, change the Matrix like they did in the first movie so that their are nice neat little tunnels and nothing to stop the machines from coming. It seems pointless to go to such lengths. While there is evidence for both sides I'm leaning the other way.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-05-20 11:04pm

anarchistbunny wrote:I'm not convinced that Zion is another Matrix. It just doesn't make sense with the drillings when they could load agents into the people in Zion and kill off the rest, unplug them, change the Matrix like they did in the first movie so that their are nice neat little tunnels and nothing to stop the machines from coming. It seems pointless to go to such lengths. While there is evidence for both sides I'm leaning the other way.

I agree. I'm leaning towards it being part of the Matrix but they could just as easily go the other way.

Hobot · Post by **Hobot** » 2003-05-20 11:15pm

SirNitram wrote:In other words, you entire long post is 'Throw out logic, throw out reason, just believe me! PLEASE!'

Strawman.

NOTHING SUGGESTS NEO COULD SUDDENLY BROADCAST. DEAL WITH THIS FACT. TAKE YOUR MUM'S ELSEWHERE: WE HAVEN'T PUT UP WITH THAT SHIT, NOT FROM DARKSTAR, NOT FROM ANYONE ELSE.

He just gave you a shit load of evidence for Neo's control over the machines. His argument's only hole is that we don't understand how Neo could physically communicate with the system.

There are a LOT more holes in your theory regarding a Second Matrix than the one hole in zombie's theory (which frankly isn't that important; it's just a matter of how). Zombie has explained the why very well and the how almost as well. You don't really have to explain the how of your theory, but you haven't addressed the why to a significant degree. The why is a much more important question.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-05-20 11:25pm

anarchistbunny wrote:I'm not convinced that Zion is another Matrix. It just doesn't make sense with the drillings when they could load agents into the people in Zion and kill off the rest, unplug them, change the Matrix like they did in the first movie so that their are nice neat little tunnels and nothing to stop the machines from coming. It seems pointless to go to such lengths. While there is evidence for both sides I'm leaning the other way.

I think it basically comes back to 'Zion keeps those who reject the program too busy to reject the second layer', and 'Making sure the One goes where he must'. That, and possibly perverse irony in the machines.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-05-20 11:27pm

Hobot wrote:
SirNitram wrote:In other words, you entire long post is 'Throw out logic, throw out reason, just believe me! PLEASE!'
Strawman.

No, completely accurate. He wants us to suppose magic transmittor plugs with no evidence.

NOTHING SUGGESTS NEO COULD SUDDENLY BROADCAST. DEAL WITH THIS FACT. TAKE YOUR MUM'S ELSEWHERE: WE HAVEN'T PUT UP WITH THAT SHIT, NOT FROM DARKSTAR, NOT FROM ANYONE ELSE.
He just gave you a shit load of evidence for Neo's control over the machines. His argument's only hole is that we don't understand how Neo could physically communicate with the system.

There are a LOT more holes in your theory regarding a Second Matrix than the one hole in zombie's theory (which frankly isn't that important; it's just a matter of how). Zombie has explained the why very well and the how almost as well. You don't really have to explain the how of your theory, but you haven't addressed the why to a significant degree. The why is a much more important question.

You're a moron. Nothing there demands that Zion be real, except the Architect's speech. And, hey, moronboy, the Architect is capable of lying. That's the point of the Matrix.

Seriously. Do you expect your 'wireless access plug' theory to actually hold up against ten seconds of logical thought? Just because you can invent reasons to believe it doesn't make it valid. It's going about things ass-backwards. Which is exactly why I compare this to RSA's shennanigans.

Hobot · Post by **Hobot** » 2003-05-20 11:44pm

SirNitram wrote:
Hobot wrote:
SirNitram wrote:In other words, you entire long post is 'Throw out logic, throw out reason, just believe me! PLEASE!'
Strawman.
No, completely accurate. He wants us to suppose magic transmittor plugs with no evidence.

No, it's not completely accurate. How Neo is able to communicate with the machines is not important at this point. It's a freaking sci-fi movie, they can invent all sorts of ways to make is possible

You're a moron. Nothing there demands that Zion be real, except the Architect's speech. And, hey, moronboy, the Architect is capable of lying. That's the point of the Matrix.
Oh yes, calling me a moron really helps your argument. There are a whole bunch of reaons to suggest that Zion is real, and zombie pointed them out several times. The burden of proof lies on you to prove that it is a Second Matrix. You have to explain why the machines have to exert so much effort to kill the Zionists and why they even have to kill them at all if they're still in the Matrix. They obviously represent a real threat, otherwise the machines wouldn't be so concerned about killing them all. If it was just a Second Matrix, they could let the Zionists rebel to their hearts content and it would all be meaningless because they'd all still be in the Matrix.

Seriously. Do you expect your 'wireless access plug' theory to actually hold up against ten seconds of logical thought? Just because you can invent reasons to believe it doesn't make it valid. It's going about things ass-backwards. Which is exactly why I compare this to RSA's shennanigans.

It's not my theory and it's not the only possibility. Again, this is a fucking sci-fi movie, they can invent just about any kind of technology they want. You might as well ask me to explain how the hover ships work or why humans can really be used as batteries, it doesn't fucking matter, get that through your thick skull.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-05-21 12:05am

Hobot wrote:
SirNitram wrote:
Hobot wrote: Strawman.
No, completely accurate. He wants us to suppose magic transmittor plugs with no evidence.
No, it's not completely accurate. How Neo is able to communicate with the machines is not important at this point. It's a freaking sci-fi movie, they can invent all sorts of ways to make is possible

Fine. Show me anything from the movie which explicitly shows it's a wireless connection. Come on. Don't give me this 'it is one, that's how the scene works', because it's BS circular logic.

You're a moron. Nothing there demands that Zion be real, except the Architect's speech. And, hey, moronboy, the Architect is capable of lying. That's the point of the Matrix.
Oh yes, calling me a moron really helps your argument. There are a whole bunch of reaons to suggest that Zion is real, and zombie pointed them out several times. The burden of proof lies on you to prove that it is a Second Matrix. You have to explain why the machines have to exert so much effort to kill the Zionists and why they even have to kill them at all if they're still in the Matrix. They obviously represent a real threat, otherwise the machines wouldn't be so concerned about killing them all. If it was just a Second Matrix, they could let the Zionists rebel to their hearts content and it would all be meaningless because they'd all still be in the Matrix.

And they still need the freakin' One to return to the Source, so they frighten the Zionists to get the One to go to the Source. There, your little theory meshes perfectly with mine.

Seriously. Do you expect your 'wireless access plug' theory to actually hold up against ten seconds of logical thought? Just because you can invent reasons to believe it doesn't make it valid. It's going about things ass-backwards. Which is exactly why I compare this to RSA's shennanigans.

It's not my theory and it's not the only possibility. Again, this is a fucking sci-fi movie, they can invent just about any kind of technology they want. You might as well ask me to explain how the hover ships work or why humans can really be used as batteries, it doesn't fucking matter, get that through your thick skull.

You have to show the plug is capable of wireless transmission before assuming that. It's called logical debate. You might want to read up on it.