"Magic" Thinking

SAMAS · Post by **SAMAS** » 2003-05-19 01:32pm

http://www.ejectejecteject.com/archives/000051.html

It's a long essay, but I think this sums the subject up nicely.

There’s a strange cloud that’s settled over our modern society. It’s a pervasive sort of bland contempt for an ingenious collection of lenses and mirrors that can reveal a giant ball of hydrogen, helium, methane and ammonia, billions of miles away, surrounded by untold millions of ice fragments in delicate orbit, yet one which will ascribe to the most banal unknown a life-changing, quit-your-insurance-job-and-live-in-a-tree status.

For our entire history, right up until a hundred years ago, the idea of flying carpets and magic lanterns held people’s imaginations in thrall. Now that we have everyday miracles like jet aircraft and electric lights, all some people want is to return to a time when the belief in magic was common but the everyday blessings of magic – telephones, computers, antibiotics – didn’t exist. Back in the anti-nuclear 80’s lots of folks drove around with SPLIT WOOD NOT ATOMS bumper stickers, and I often asked myself, how much wood have these people actually split? I’ve done an hour in my 20’s and I thought I was going to die.

It’s sad, frankly – at least to people like me. I find it terribly, tragically sad that the more successful and comfortable we become, the more people pine for a time when none of these everyday miracles existed. Outdoor bathrooms on January nights and miserable coal stoves that need to be tended hourly just to heat a pathetic half-gallon of tepid water need to be experienced to be believed – and not just in a 24 hour adventure, but continuously. Death, hunger, cold, disease, infant mortality – we have fought them tooth and nail for millennia, for what? Apparently in order to so insulate people that they can long for “ancient wisdom”, return to the “holistic tribal remedies” of the past, and hold up the most primitive and achingly poor cultures on earth as being the sole repository of “authenticity” while scorning every advance that they take completely for granted.

Magical thinking is everywhere today, and it is growing. It threatens the foundations of reason, individualism, science and objectivity that have delivered this success so well and for so long. It is dangerous. If we are to continue to thrive and progress, then we need to sharpen some sticks and drive a stake through the heart of this monster, and right quick.

DarthBlight · Post by **DarthBlight** » 2003-05-19 02:01pm

I see a new reality TV show here: "I'm a Pot-smoking granola-eating hippie! Get me out of here!"

We dump these people into an Amish community and wait for them all to go completely batshit. The last one standing . . . can stay there!

Seriously, I grew up in a portion of Ohio where it is wall-to-wall Mennonites and Amish. I have seen an Amish village. I know what Amish life is like. I would go completely bonkers inside one hour living like that.

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi · Post by **Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi** » 2003-05-19 06:38pm

If someone environmentalist wacko is going to say we should go "back to nature", then they should live up to their word. I mean, just how many of the people who say stuff like that live in a mansion and ride around in a limo?

UltraViolence83 · Post by **UltraViolence83** » 2003-05-19 06:39pm

That guy seems a little too technology-happy. I wish for the day people stop rotting their brains with TV and pick up a book for once in their lives. Just because it's new doesn't make it right.

Hehe I see Amish folks every Wedensday. We go out to eat at Old Country Buffet and the Amish like it there for some reason.

I think that having an eccletic mix of technologies can work out in the world. Maybe living in a Hobbitesque hole in the ground with an Internet connection. Hey, those Hobbits got it pretty easy!

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-05-19 08:00pm

Ive split wood. its not that bad.

boy scouts makes for an interesting view point.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-05-19 08:04pm

The guy is correct, in the sense that people take technology for granted. Even the most die-hard outdoorsmen make sure to carry along some way of communicating with civilization in case they need medical care; how would they do if civilization wasn't there?

The same holds true for the Amish; they have more connections with regular society than they will admit. I've seen their horses and buggies at shopping malls.

The belief that technology is evil comes from people who don't understand technology and are too fucking stupid to recognize how much their lives depend on it. Even a simple technology like running water. And the "good old days" fallacy is just that: a fallacy.

SyntaxVorlon · Post by **SyntaxVorlon** » 2003-05-19 08:50pm

Darth Wong wrote:The guy is correct, in the sense that people take technology for granted. Even the most die-hard outdoorsmen make sure to carry along some way of communicating with civilization in case they need medical care; how would they do if civilization wasn't there?

The same holds true for the Amish; they have more connections with regular society than they will admit. I've seen their horses and buggies at shopping malls.

The belief that technology is evil comes from people who don't understand technology and are too fucking stupid to recognize how much their lives depend on it. Even a simple technology like running water. And the "good old days" fallacy is just that: a fallacy.

The ones at the mall are just some of the young'uns gettin' their crack as they so often do.

Also you forget Ludditism. There is a history between job displacement and the progress of technology, the fact that people don't want to end up in the poor house has meant that Unions suppress automation a good deal, where automation would mean more jobs lost than would be heathly, for the union mostly.

Simplicity is something these people hold dear, complexity is what they fear and new tech means more complexity. Thankfully most of the naysayers will disappear in the next 20 or so years as a new generation of Playstation generation kids gain access to the world marketplace. By then hopefully clean and ecologically sound technology will have gained an irrepressible foothold in the market.

Drooling Iguana · Post by **Drooling Iguana** » 2003-05-19 08:56pm

The problem is that the univers is too complex for any one person to understand, and when there's things that you don't understand trust is required. Some people trust science. Some people trust priests, some people trust these anti-technology people. It's a problem that I don't think will go away any time soon.

UltraViolence83 · Post by **UltraViolence83** » 2003-05-19 09:13pm

These "playstation generation" kids may not embrace technology as commonly thought. I've read an essay saying that as these kids get older they tend to want to change the surroundings of their lives; a breath of fresh air. That makes sense to me, only because it happened to me. I've spend almost all my childhood playing SNES and Playstation and now I hardly ever touch them. I used to think of technology as the panacea of human progress ala Star Trek. Now I'm smarter.

New technologies should always be questioned. Just because it's new doesn't make it better. I also agree with the unioner's stance on automation: in all likelyhood I'll remain in the blue collar/lower class social structure, and I sure as hell don't want GoodWorkerv2.0 replacing me.

Newtonian Fury · Post by **Newtonian Fury** » 2003-05-19 11:25pm

UltraViolence83 wrote:...in all likelyhood I'll remain in the blue collar/lower class social structure, and I sure as hell don't want GoodWorkerv2.0 replacing me.

While it may be bad for the blue collar workers to be replaced by robotic assembly, it is probably better for society as a whole. Cheaper, higher quality production usually means cheaper end product: good for consumers. If anything, technological progress is a even bigger incentive to work hard academically. Only with better and a wider variety of skills can one stay afloat.

Drooling Iguana · Post by **Drooling Iguana** » 2003-05-20 12:13am

We've been replacing human workers with domesticated animals and machines since the dawn of civilization, yet people still manage to find jobs.

The only way they could have a machine completely replace a human is to have it be as good at everything as a human is, and in that case it would also be as good at demanding pay raises and longer vacations as a human and we'd be back to square one.

UltraViolence83 · Post by **UltraViolence83** » 2003-05-20 12:43pm

Newtonian Fury wrote:
UltraViolence83 wrote:...in all likelyhood I'll remain in the blue collar/lower class social structure, and I sure as hell don't want GoodWorkerv2.0 replacing me.
While it may be bad for the blue collar workers to be replaced by robotic assembly, it is probably better for society as a whole. Cheaper, higher quality production usually means cheaper end product: good for consumers. If anything, technological progress is a even bigger incentive to work hard academically. Only with better and a wider variety of skills can one stay afloat.

Spoken like a true sci-fi prodigy. One thing that they didn't have during the first industrial revolution was unions. This is the real world here, NO ONE in the "replacable" fields of jobs are going to sit by gleefully as society "improves itself." They're not going to fucking care about that shit, they're going to care about their jobs and their families. Also many people don't want/aren't trained for academic work. What happens to them? Do they get to taste the fruits of a more efficient society?

I live close to a GM automotive plant that has been threatened with being shut down. What that means is that this area's whole fucking economy is going to be in shambles if they did. Essentially the same thing would happen if the company decided to switch over to automated labor.

This all sure does sound like it's "better for society as a whole" to me.

Newtonian Fury · Post by **Newtonian Fury** » 2003-05-20 05:55pm

Humans won't be completely replaced. Their presence will eventually be moved to assembly/robotic supervising. Meaning, it's the laborers who will be replaced. The engineers and other more technical personnel of the plant will still be around (most likely indefinitely). I forsee human laborers in factory work relegated to more and more complex manufacturing--meaning, they'll do only the manufacturing too complex for existing technology to accomplish. But eventually, even these workers will be displaced as technology gets better.

Of course the labor unions won't let themselves to be replaced by machines. But corporate heads will choose the most profitable route. Even if they willinging embrace the disadvantage of catering to the workers, consumers will pick cheaper products from foreign companies that do automatize. Unless there is a high tariff, business people will eventually choose robotic/automatic production over people if the technology exists (key on being if the tech exists) .

The people who are displaced by technology will get screwed over by this. And it really is bad for their families. But unless a large majority of society is blue collar, most people in that society will reap the benefit. As for the displaced workers, they'll adapt to the structural change. They'll learn new skills to fit into the work force.

Structural unemployment is a negative side effect of technological advancement. But that's not a good reason to stagnate technological progress.

EDIT: spelling and grammar stuff

Hobot · Post by **Hobot** » 2003-05-20 10:52pm

Some people just aren't smart or motivated enough to work anything but blue-collar jobs. What will happen to them? People aren't suddenly going to get smarter and motivated just because technology improves.

UltraViolence83 · Post by **UltraViolence83** » 2003-05-20 11:03pm

You're saying that technological "progress" is more important than someone being able to provide for their families. No offense to you personally, but I fucking hate it when people advocate what is preceived as progress over something that works just fine now anyway.*

Guess what else is progress? Buying foreign steel. Cheaper and relatively the same grade of quality, right? Of course! But at what price? Ah! Americans are losing thier jobs over this, thus fucking the same economy that buys it. Rep. Jim Traficant tried to pass a tariff on foreign steel, but he's in jail now. (Go figure.)

Similiar to what I mentioned in my last post about the GM plant, thousands of people already lost their jobs in northern Ohio due to Japanese and Mexicans working dirt wages to give us the "cheap and efficient" steel.

Now don't get me wrong. Robots can be used for things robots are good for: like working in ultraclean rooms making chips, or performing surgery too delicate for human hands, and building space colonies. But I'll be damned if I'm going to let Billy The Automaton fuck me out of work. And does anyone really like those automated cashiers in Tops and K-Mart, anyway?

*And no one give me that "Oh, but horses worked well, now we have cars" type shit either. This is different. This is replacing humans with machines when humans are doing an alright job as it is. I'm a "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" man myself. I'm happy with the way things are done now, sorry I'm not a total "technological progress" guy.

Besides, if this situation comes to a head as Unions vs. Companies like it did a century ago, I'll make a killing furthering my [potential] political career supporting the working man.

UltraViolence83 · Post by **UltraViolence83** » 2003-05-20 11:05pm

Hobot wrote:Some people just aren't smart or motivated enough to work anything but blue-collar jobs. What will happen to them? People aren't suddenly going to get smarter and motivated just because technology improves.

Righto my Canuck friend!

My biggest problem is that I have an obscenely high lack of motivation when it comes to work. Sure I could get off my lazy ass and go be a doctor or something, but hell, I don't have the money for schooling like that. Besides, manual labor gives me more room to think freely about things I want to think about.

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2003-05-20 11:06pm

Hobot wrote:Some people just aren't smart or motivated enough to work anything but blue-collar jobs. What will happen to them? People aren't suddenly going to get smarter and motivated just because technology improves.

I disagree. I am vastly more educated than a man in his twenties 100 years ago, and doubtless he was more educated than his predecessors.

In thirty years kids will be integrating functions in third grade.

It always improves.

UltraViolence83 · Post by **UltraViolence83** » 2003-05-20 11:07pm

Assuming the education system improves by then. Hate to break it to you, but I'd have to say that people 100 years ago (depending on social status and area you lived in) were more educated than your average street punk. If Jay Leno's "Jay Walking" is any indicator of the intelligence of Americans these days...

PS: What's "integrating functions?" Some computer thingy?

Newtonian Fury · Post by **Newtonian Fury** » 2003-05-20 11:08pm

Hobot wrote:Some people just aren't smart or motivated enough to work anything but blue-collar jobs. What will happen to them? People aren't suddenly going to get smarter and motivated just because technology improves.

Well, if it's lack of motivation, then I'd have no pity at all.

If the person had opportunities to excell in the past but didn't take them, then it's that person's fault. There are reasons to work hard when you're young. Having a good job when you're older is one of them.

But if one is incapable of doing other jobs due to not getting adequate opportunities when younger (or something similar) or just not as intelligent, then that really is too bad. But I'd assume that someone like this would still be able to adapt to the new environment if they're willing to learn new skills. If they simply can't due to things outside their control, then it might require outside intervention to help them out.

Newtonian Fury · Post by **Newtonian Fury** » 2003-05-20 11:13pm

UltraViolence83 wrote:Similiar to what I mentioned in my last post about the GM plant, thousands of people already lost their jobs in northern Ohio due to Japanese and Mexicans working dirt wages to give us the "cheap and efficient" steel.

Though Nexicans might, I don't think Japanese workers have dirt wages.

UltraViolence83 · Post by **UltraViolence83** » 2003-05-20 11:15pm

Newtonian Fury wrote:
UltraViolence83 wrote:Similiar to what I mentioned in my last post about the GM plant, thousands of people already lost their jobs in northern Ohio due to Japanese and Mexicans working dirt wages to give us the "cheap and efficient" steel.
Though Nexicans might, I don't think Japanese workers have dirt wages.

Yeah...I was thinking more about the Mexicans on that...Anyway, Japanese steel IS cheaper to buy in the USA than it is to buy steel from the same country.

Newtonian Fury · Post by **Newtonian Fury** » 2003-05-20 11:16pm

UltraViolence83 wrote:But I'll be damned if I'm going to let Billy The Automaton fuck me out of work. And does anyone really like those automated cashiers in Tops and K-Mart, anyway?

Yeah, but it's almost impossible to replace human interraction with machine. So I doubt cashiers will be replaced.

But with production, a lot of the stuff don't require much skills at all. Use quicker and more efficient machines to do those jobs will be good. And there will be still humans around to do the more complex jobs (though they will be replaced eventually, but in a farther away future).

UltraViolence83 · Post by **UltraViolence83** » 2003-05-20 11:21pm

Theoretically you can have a machine replace any human job. The questions are, in proceeding order: Will it happen? Should it happen? Why should it happen?

UltraViolence83 · Post by **UltraViolence83** » 2003-05-20 11:25pm

I'd like to note that in Japan Honda, in one or more of their car factories, have decided to replace the robots with humans.

That just made my day. I love the irony of it all.

Newtonian Fury · Post by **Newtonian Fury** » 2003-05-20 11:44pm

UltraViolence83 wrote:I'd like to note that in Japan Honda, in one or more of their car factories, have decided to replace the robots with humans.

That just made my day. I love the irony of it all.

Not surprising. It's cheaper and easier to do tough jobs with humans. But robots will still be more efficient for easier jobs. And American car companies might need to do the same if they wish to match up.

EDIT: clarified my idea somewhat