"Magic" Thinking

[Uther]

What he writes is certainly true, but inevitable. People will always begin to take for granted what they have.

[Darth Wong]

I'd like to note that in Japan Honda, in one or more of their car factories, have decided to replace the robots with humans.

That just made my day. I love the irony of it all.

That's bullshit. They probably just went back to manual operations for some specific process that the machines had trouble with. This doesn't mean they're going back to Stone Age manufacturing techniques wholesale. I've been involved with some automation projects that didn't work out; they will retry when the technology is there.

You are a Luddite; you seem to think that the replacement of idiot jobs with machines (built, designed, programmed, operated, and maintained by people who have a viable education) is somehow a bad thing for society. This is absolutely not true; automation increases production, energizes the economy, and elevates the character of the job from mindless labour to intelligent work.

Hundreds of years ago, the ability to read and write was considered a luxury for the wealthy. Today, it is considered a minimum expectation for even the poorest serf. So it will eventually be with things like computer skills.

As for your argument that some people are too stupid or lazy to learn how to do things the modern way, fuck 'em. What kind of society would deliberately retard its progress and stunt its economy just to coddle its most stupid and lazy members? There will always be prostitution, acting, politics, and sidewalk hot dog vending stands for people too stupid or lazy to learn how to operate machinery.

[Frank Hipper]

There will always be prostitution, acting, politics, and sidewalk hot dog vending stands for people too stupid or lazy to learn how to operate machinery.

Now there's a list I can fall in love with!

[Newtonian Fury]

automation increases production, energizes the economy, and elevates the character of the job from mindless labour to intelligent work.

People in poverty are usually resigned to hard physical labor, which can lead to all sorts of health problems. If automation and tech can make these hard jobs less physically demanding, it's a good thing. Overall, it's better for a society to have people use their minds instead of their bodies for their jobs.

What kind of society would deliberately retard its progress and stunt its economy just to coddle its most stupid and lazy members?

A (real) communist society.

[UltraViolence83]

I'd like to note that in Japan Honda, in one or more of their car factories, have decided to replace the robots with humans.

That just made my day. I love the irony of it all.

That's bullshit. They probably just went back to manual operations for some specific process that the machines had trouble with. This doesn't mean they're going back to Stone Age manufacturing techniques wholesale. I've been involved with some automation projects that didn't work out; they will retry when the technology is there.

Yeah, it was a machinical difficulty that led them to that decision.

You are a Luddite; you seem to think that the replacement of idiot jobs with machines (built, designed, programmed, operated, and maintained by people who have a viable education) is somehow a bad thing for society. This is absolutely not true; automation increases production, energizes the economy, and elevates the character of the job from mindless labour to intelligent work.

How can I be a Luddite if I'm using a computer to post messages on a science fiction board? I feel I'm more of a naturalist of some sort, but I can't be a Luddite. (Though I do find cell phones gravely annoying, and would only own one for an emergency situation.) Unless you mean the kind that tried to revolt against the first industrial revolution...I could see myself in the position of the workers if I were born then, possibly.

Hundreds of years ago, the ability to read and write was considered a luxury for the wealthy. Today, it is considered a minimum expectation for even the poorest serf. So it will eventually be with things like computer skills.

So in like say, 30 years the only job I'll have is computer operator? Ugh. I'd go insane. Not that menial factory work is any good; my last job was mostly putting tape on strips of metal for Venetian blinds... Horrible! I should probably say that the only few jobs that appeal to me aren't really "jobs" in the sense of steady employment: musician, writer, basically entertainment business-type "jobs."

My secondary choices, hypocritical considering my previous arguments, are intellectual-type careers. Something scholary, like a history professor. I have a concern for blue-collar work. I live in Ohio. It's ALL manual work here! Any cessation of job opportunities would further ruin the economy around me, thus shortening the list of potential jobs I can get.

What I'm arguing agaisnt is NF's idea that eventually all lower-end jobs'll be replaced by robots. It just doesn't seem like a good idea...I mean, you think we have fat and weak kids NOW...

As for your argument that some people are too stupid or lazy to learn how to do things the modern way, fuck 'em. What kind of society would deliberately retard its progress and stunt its economy just to coddle its most stupid and lazy members? There will always be prostitution, acting, politics, and sidewalk hot dog vending stands for people too stupid or lazy to learn how to operate machinery.

Well hey, we seem to be doing that right now with lax concern on welfare cheats and other white trash. I'm more arguing for the people who aren't very intellectually-minded. Most people out there don't give a flying fuck about abstract concepts and the such, they 'd rather just go to work and get paid. That's the way it's been, and always will be in the case of the majority.

OK OK maybe automation isn't really as bad as I think it would be. I just don't want to see people getting weaker and fatter because all they do is sit in front of a computer telling machines what to do. If it works out great like in Star Wars or something, it's welcome by me.

[Durandal]

This "ancient wisdom" stuff is just another throwback to society's obsession with religion and spirituality. Being religious is casually equated with being righteous and moral. In the case of these new-age spirituality idiots, they see anything which is divergent from the traditional Western monotheistic religious beliefs as new and interesting, so they eat shit like Gaia and American Indian spirits up in droves. The case is similar for Buddhism. It's quickly becoming the new "cool" religion. Tell someone you're a Buddhist, and he'll automatically think you're some sort of deep thinker, even if you happen to be the biggest dumbshit on the face of the planet. Tell someone you're an atheist, and he'll probably think you're "close-minded" or something. It mainly boils down to successive generations just getting bored with the Judeo-Christian belief system, so they seek out something new and interesting.

Most people simply are not educated or intelligent enough to understand what goes into making a modern medical treatment or piece of technology work. As a result of their ignorance, they look to the people who make these advances possible as "technocrats" who want to hoard all the secrets to their success. So, they see these people as greedy and evil. Also, enviro-nuts see nature being destroyed by technology and then conclude that technology must be evil because it "hurts Mother Earth" or something.

On the other hand, people have no trouble comprehending some yahoo on the street offering some ancient American Indian remedy for the flu and spouting some bullshit about it bringing your spirit closer to the Earth or whatever. They think "spirit = good" and shell out cash for bullshit.

[Setesh]

Some people just aren't smart or motivated enough to work anything but blue-collar jobs. What will happen to them? People aren't suddenly going to get smarter and motivated just because technology improves.

I disagree. I am vastly more educated than a man in his twenties 100 years ago, and doubtless he was more educated than his predecessors.

In thirty years kids will be integrating functions in third grade.

It always improves.

You've had more education avalible and had to learn more to make it but your in all liklyhood not any smarter.

When I moved from Maine to North Carolina I was in second grade we had those 'disposable' math books you write in for textbooks at the time, so in math class I spent 2 months with nothing to do. Why, because my class in NC was three chapters behind were I had been in Maine. My classmates in NC weren't dumber for the most part, they just weren't givin the education at the same pace in fact they never did finish that book. I learned through a friend when I moved back that in Maine they had finished it with time to spare. Its always been my belief that the education system in the south is largly to blame for the 'ignorant sotherner' stereotype for this reason. Just because you've had access to more education doesn't make you smarter.