The F/A-22 & FB-22

[Admiral Valdemar]

I'm just curious, what are the prospects of the F/A-22 becoming a new USAF fighter and producing offspring in the form of the FB-22?

Does anyone have any problems with the projects or do you believe they can be turned around and ended successfully?

[phongn]

FB-22 is really speculation at the moment, AFAIK.

The prospects of F/A-22 are good - the current F-15 fleet is getting old and need to be replaced. Opening a new line for a hypothetical F-15 with new engines, thrust-vectoring and the APG-77 probably would get fairly close to the Raptor cost anyways.

[Sea Skimmer]

The F/A-22 will likely be in service in a few years. On the other hand the FB-22 is simply a concept that was proposed by Lockheed Martin last year, they privately funded a small concept feasibility study. Even if it does happen, which isn't all that likely it wouldn't begin development work for a couple more years, and wouldn't be entering service before 2015. Mind you, that's the optimistic Lockheed Martin created date.

[Alyeska]

While the concept behind the FB-22 is very interesting, it probably won't be built. Increasingly the US military will rely on mid sized strike craft like the F-16, F-18, or the new F-35 for the majority of the tactical strikes. High level bombers such as the B-52, B-1, and B-2 fill another role. Then there are cruise missiles. The FB-22 is a good concept that would work only if the US military could truly aford it.

As for the F/A-22. This thing is needed, badly. How many will be get? Probably enough for a single wing, if were lucky enough for two. They would be sent to locations that were possible hot spots, but thats about it. It would be interesting to see the US redesign the F-15 and restart the production line. Could it equal the new Euro Fighter? Or would the US be better off to buy a few F/A-22s and then maybe twice that number in Euro Fighters?

[Sea Skimmer]

No F-15 redesign can make it equal to the Eurofighter, there's really no way to reduce the signature without an active stealth system. Those are about 50-100 years in future according to leading stealth experts. Well unless you want to believe Russia claims of having such a system for a decade, but never displaying, producing or exporting it.

[Ignorant_Boy]

Didn't they just cut the F/A-22 production run down to 250 or so?

[Rubberanvil]

As for the F/A-22. This thing is needed, badly. How many will be get? Probably enough for a single wing, if were lucky enough for two. They would be sent to locations that were possible hot spots, but thats about it.

If they're going to be without replacements, attrition is a huge limiting factor.

It would be interesting to see the US redesign the F-15 and restart the production line.

Had the line been not closed and the F-15 design (ala Su-27) been continually updated over the years instead trying to do all of it at once. Which at this point in the game it is too expensive to bother with it.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Didn't they just cut the F/A-22 production run down to 250 or so?

Around 120 now, like I said, there will be a Silver Bullet wing probably, but as Rubberanvil mentioned, those planes would need to be the best else the loss of them would leave no backups.

Given the unit cost of a single F/A-22 the replacement for the F-15 is looking like an upgraded F-15.

But I digress, I was more interested in the FB-22 project due to a certain in-duhvidual over at SB.com.

Does anyone have any decent info. on whether Congress would allow a project like that to go ahead even if the Raptor programme was cancelled?

[Sea Skimmer]

FB-22 has no chance in hell if the F/A-22 is canceled. Currently F/A-22 production is to be 276, though the USAF stated requirement is for 381 to equip 10 squadrons, one for each AEF plus attrition and training. With the number changing a couple times at year recently it's impossible to tell what the final number will be.

[Admiral Valdemar]

FB-22 has no chance in hell if the F/A-22 is canceled. Currently F/A-22 production is to be 276, though the USAF stated requirement is for 381 to equip 10 squadrons, one for each AEF plus attrition and training. With the number changing a couple times at year recently it's impossible to tell what the final number will be.

So would Es Arkajae's comments here be wishful thinking?

[Sea Skimmer]

So would Es Arkajae's comments here be wishful thinking?

At best.

The FB-22 is simply a company concept study. Defence Contractors do hundreds of these every year and they often get no official support or funding at all. Unless a study is submitted in response to a requirement, which FB-22 was not it doesn't stand a very good chance. Since rather then simply convincing people that you can meet a requirement, you also have to convince them that requirement exists in the first place.

It represents an example of a technology push when a contractor goes to the military and says "this is the best aircraft possibul, will you fund it? But the US military is moving away from that very expensive system in favor of nothing but the requirement pull which works by them saying "this is what we want, design to meet this figure" to the contractors.


Until when and if we start seeing hundreds of millions flowing to begin development work, the FB-22 is simply an idea that might not even work.

[Admiral Valdemar]

So would Es Arkajae's comments here be wishful thinking?

At best.

The FB-22 is simply a company concept study. Defence Contractors do hundreds of these every year and they often get no official support or funding at all. Unless a study is submitted in response to a requirement, which FB-22 was not it doesn't stand a very good chance. Since rather then simply convincing people that you can meet a requirement, you also have to convince them that requirement exists in the first place.

Until when and if we start seeing hundreds of millions flowing to begin development work, the FB-22 is simply an idea that might not even work.

Well I have heard that the gov't is retiring some B-1Bs and also has a stealth strike-bomber initiative set up, so that's something for the FB-22 as some would think.

But then the B3 is also on the drawing boards if you put it that way, the FB-22 is still going to need to be developed even if most of it exists as the F/A-22.

I'd mention this to Es but I feel I banged my head against enough walls of Australian ignorance for one day.

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

FB-22 has no chance in hell if the F/A-22 is canceled. Currently F/A-22 production is to be 276, though the USAF stated requirement is for 381 to equip 10 squadrons, one for each AEF plus attrition and training. With the number changing a couple times at year recently it's impossible to tell what the final number will be.

So would Es Arkajae's comments here be wishful thinking?

All i see is him being the typical moronic fucktard that he is (note: me and him had a bit of a scrap after I joined SB. When he found out I'm gay, he blew a few gaskets and shot his bolt at me, so I don't like him one bit. Asshole.)

[Sea Skimmer]

Well I have heard that the gov't is retiring some B-1Bs and also has a stealth strike-bomber initiative set up, so that's something for the FB-22 as some would think.

But then the B3 is also on the drawing boards if you put it that way, the FB-22 is still going to need to be developed even if most of it exists as the F/A-22.

I'd mention this to Es but I feel I banged my head against enough walls of Australian ignorance for one day.

The FB-22 doesn’t have the range of bomb load to replace heavy bombers. The B-3 program still has its requirements undefined, the USAF isn't sure if it wants a bomb truck or a penatraitor, but it would still be required even with the FB-22.

The downsizing of the B-1B is because of cost, not a good way to justify spending billions on the FB-22.

[Admiral Valdemar]

All i see is him being the typical moronic fucktard that he is (note: me and him had a bit of a scrap after I joined SB. When he found out I'm gay, he blew a few gaskets and shot his bolt at me, so I don't like him one bit. Asshole.)

Yeah, he's quite religious and opinionated and doesn't have any qualms with saying how he truly feels, I have to admire that aspect at least.

But so long as you didn't shoot your "bolt" at him I'm sure it's okay.

The FB-22 doesn’t have the range of bomb load to replace heavy bombers. The B-3 program still has its requirements undefined, the USAF isn't sure if it wants a bomb truck or a penatraitor, but it would still be required even with the FB-22.

The downsizing of the B-1B is because of cost, not a good way to justify spending billions on the FB-22.

I did find that a bit hypocritical given all the cash that was thrown at the F/A-22 in the form of giant trucks of the stuff, but apart from that, the FB-22 has no real opposition that I can see on the Net other than a few people who dislike the Raptor idea in the first place and any spin-offs it may breed.

The chief argument is that you have the Raptor mostly developed, it may still have those flaws that get it cancelled this time next year if things really go bad, but you could still get something from it in the form of the FB-22 for only a few billion more and not forking out for a whole new plane. Of course, The Doctor also mentioned how that was analogous to the Tornado ADV and IDS problems when trying to convert one plane to another mission it wasn't specified for. I have no idea how much that would affect the FB-22 though.

[Sea Skimmer]

The chief argument is that you have the Raptor mostly developed, it may still have those flaws that get it cancelled this time next year if things really go bad, but you could still get something from it in the form of the FB-22 for only a few billion more and not forking out for a whole new plane.

It going to be more then a few billion. The FB-22 requires rather radical changes.

[Admiral Valdemar]

The chief argument is that you have the Raptor mostly developed, it may still have those flaws that get it cancelled this time next year if things really go bad, but you could still get something from it in the form of the FB-22 for only a few billion more and not forking out for a whole new plane.

It going to be more then a few billion. The FB-22 requires rather radical changes.

All articles on the Net state that it requires a tailless delta like design like the Manta test model NASA uses.

Of course, that's probably all corporate propaganda saying that turning a perfect air superiority craft into a stealthy low-level bomber is that easy.

[Striderteen]

As for the F/A-22. This thing is needed, badly. How many will be get? Probably enough for a single wing, if were lucky enough for two. They would be sent to locations that were possible hot spots, but thats about it. It would be interesting to see the US redesign the F-15 and restart the production line. Could it equal the new Euro Fighter? Or would the US be better off to buy a few F/A-22s and then maybe twice that number in Euro Fighters?

The best solution from a military perspective would be get as many F-22s as possible and use them to equip several elite squadrons, then adopt a Westernized version of the Sukhoi Su-37 Super Flanker as our primary frontline fighter.

Of course, the politicians would never allow such a thing to happen...too bad, a Russo-American alliance would be a win-win scenario in so many ways.

[Vympel]

Had the line been not closed and the F-15 design (ala Su-27) been continually updated over the years instead trying to do all of it at once. Which at this point in the game it is too expensive to bother with it.

The F-15 line is still open. The South Korean F-X competition meant that the F-15K keeps the line open for a while yet. Admittedly, it's based on the E, not the C, but I think the same facility built the C (don't know).

The FB-22 is a good idea IMO because it means a new F-111 Aardvark type bird, which I like- it was a crime to do away with it. This means that the only aircraft remotely similar is the quite capable Su-24 FENCER series in Russian service, and it's successor, the Su-32 FULLBACK.

Unfortunately, no cash for FB-22 at all.

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

All i see is him being the typical moronic fucktard that he is (note: me and him had a bit of a scrap after I joined SB. When he found out I'm gay, he blew a few gaskets and shot his bolt at me, so I don't like him one bit. Asshole.)

Yeah, he's quite religious and opinionated and doesn't have any qualms with saying how he truly feels, I have to admire that aspect at least.

But so long as you didn't shoot your "bolt" at him I'm sure it's okay.

That's the thing: I didn't try anything on him. I was playing around in their version of OT when I suddenly got shot at by Es Assholejae. If any one person is responsible for driving me off SB, it's him. Fucktard.

The best solution from a military perspective would be get as many F-22s as possible and use them to equip several elite squadrons, then adopt a Westernized version of the Sukhoi Su-37 Super Flanker as our primary frontline fighter.

Of course, the politicians would never allow such a thing to happen...too bad, a Russo-American alliance would be a win-win scenario in so many ways.

Hmmm.. Su-37 with AMRAAMS? *drooool*

[Vympel]

Hmmm.. Su-37 with AMRAAMS? *drooool*

Definitely an impossible dream ... but nice anyway.

Russian avionics have definitely been getting better since the end of the Cold War: MIL-STD-1553b equivalent databuses, glass cockpits with high quality, large, LCD MFDs, impressive new radars (from NIIR Phazotron- the 'Zhuk' series and NIIP, the N011M which equips the Indian's superb Su-30MKI), advances in optronics technology (second-generation thermal imagers etc)- just on May 13 I read a news report that stated Phazotron was planning to start bench tests of it's AESA radar (which the Russians refer to as AFAR technology) in 2004.

When the fifth-generation fighter (PAK FA program) is ready to fly, there'll probably be an AESA radar waiting for it- from either NIIP or NIIR. As well as a new generation of air-to-air missiles from Vympel (pun alert)- work on the R-77/RVV-AE (AA-12 ADDER, or AMRAAMski) continues, with an improved active-radar homing version (R-77M), an infrared homing version (standard Russian practice to carry a mix of medium range radar/infrared seekers- ripple fired to improve Pk), a rocket ramjet powered version, RVV-AE-PD (range 150-200km), and a passive radar homing seeker (to kill fighters/ AWACS with their radars on). A successor to the formidable R-73 series of close-range dogfight AAMs (the first helmet mounted off-boresight system in service), the K-30 (to be R-30 when in service, probably) is in development (pictures shown at arms shows), and the R-37 long range AAM (originally the main armament of the unbuilt MiG-31M 'Super' FOXHOUND, it is now the main armament of the upgraded MiG-31BM).

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

As well as a new generation of air-to-air missiles from Vympel (pun alert)-

ROFLMAO!!!!

I knew about that since the first day I saw you here

[Striderteen]

All i see is him being the typical moronic fucktard that he is (note: me and him had a bit of a scrap after I joined SB. When he found out I'm gay, he blew a few gaskets and shot his bolt at me, so I don't like him one bit. Asshole.)

Yeah, he's quite religious and opinionated and doesn't have any qualms with saying how he truly feels, I have to admire that aspect at least.

But so long as you didn't shoot your "bolt" at him I'm sure it's okay.

That's the thing: I didn't try anything on him. I was playing around in their version of OT when I suddenly got shot at by Es Assholejae. If any one person is responsible for driving me off SB, it's him. Fucktard.

The best solution from a military perspective would be get as many F-22s as possible and use them to equip several elite squadrons, then adopt a Westernized version of the Sukhoi Su-37 Super Flanker as our primary frontline fighter.

Of course, the politicians would never allow such a thing to happen...too bad, a Russo-American alliance would be a win-win scenario in so many ways.

Hmmm.. Su-37 with AMRAAMS? *drooool*

Well, the Russian R-77 (AA-12 Adder) series medium range air to air missiles are said to be comparable in performance to the AMRAAM but have longer range, while the R-73 (AA-11 Archer) dogfight missile outperforms anything in the Western arsenal including the prototype AIM-9X Sidewinder, with features like wide-angle off-boresight seeker head, helmet sight targetting system and thrust-vectoring. And, with the retirement of the F-14 Tomcat and the AIM-54 Phoenix missile, it appears that the ramjet-powered version of the R-77 will be the only long range air to air missile around.

Giving the Sukhoi advanced American avionics like the APG-77 radar unit from the F-22, now that's a scary thought.

[Sea Skimmer]

The F-15 line is still open. The South Korean F-X competition meant that the F-15K keeps the line open for a while yet. Admittedly, it's based on the E, not the C, but I think the same facility built the C (don't know).

The FB-22 is a good idea IMO because it means a new F-111 Aardvark type bird, which I like- it was a crime to do away with it. This means that the only aircraft remotely similar is the quite capable Su-24 FENCER series in Russian service, and it's successor, the Su-32 FULLBACK.

Unfortunately, no cash for FB-22 at all.

Bah, Fencers range sucked shit, even with drop tanks its inferior to an F/A-18.

[phongn]

When the fifth-generation fighter (PAK FA program) is ready to fly, there'll probably be an AESA radar waiting for it- from either NIIP or NIIR. As well as a new generation of air-to-air missiles from Vympel (pun alert)- work on the R-77/RVV-AE (AA-12 ADDER, or AMRAAMski) continues, with an improved active-radar homing version (R-77M), an infrared homing version (standard Russian practice to carry a mix of medium range radar/infrared seekers- ripple fired to improve Pk), a rocket ramjet powered version, RVV-AE-PD (range 150-200km), and a passive radar homing seeker (to kill fighters/ AWACS with their radars on). A successor to the formidable R-73 series of close-range dogfight AAMs (the first helmet mounted off-boresight system in service), the K-30 (to be R-30 when in service, probably) is in development (pictures shown at arms shows), and the R-37 long range AAM (originally the main armament of the unbuilt MiG-31M 'Super' FOXHOUND, it is now the main armament of the upgraded MiG-31BM).

Hrm. Raytheon has their ramjet-powered AMRAAM derivative (that competed against and lost to the Meteor). Maybe the USAF could pick that up. There was also the dual SARH/IR seeker for the AIM-7R, I wonder if that could be adapted to the AMRAAM as well.