Skeletal Question

[Tekore]

I am designing an insect-like race to go in a story I am writing. I am aware that the nature of the insect’s exoskeleton prevents them from becoming to large
( thank you great wong ) However, I was wondering which is a more feasible counter to the problems caused by an insect of increased size -
1. An exoskeleton made of a material stronger and more lightweight than chiton (think in the vein of spider-silk, but sturdier)
2. An internal skeleton with most(if not all) of the exoskeleton being an armor covering of some sort (What phyla/class/group/whatever would this likely fall under)

On a related note- for spaceships, if you use metal for armor, and computers for data processing is there a problem with internal systems being partly biological(i.e. neural interface, ‘grown’ controls, etc)?

[neoolong]

You might want to add some additional organs. Like lungs.

[Tekore]

You might want to add some additional organs. Like lungs.

Thank you for pointing that out... I forgot about the other importaint organ systems.


Umm... by the way, how do you add a persons name to the quote, it looks cool but I don't understand how.

[EmperorChrostas the Cruel]

As I understood it, 2 things limited the size of insects.

One was oxygen density. True insects do not have lungs or gills, and depend on osmosis, aided by small tunnels, or "spicules" through the body.More oxygen, bigger bugs. Like during rain forest/jungle planet periods, the bugs are up to 8 feet long!

The other was the structural.(the square/cube law of volume/surface area.)
Also, the bigger you are exo style, the further your organs are from their mounting points.
Huge, (by today's standard) insects were common on Jurasic/Cretatious peroids. But they never got above the 8/10 foot lenth.

If you included lungs, and a combonation exo/endo skeleton, the bugs could get every bit as big as a Brontosaurous.
With the same limits the Bronto's had on speed and strenth.

Note, many critters we call insects, are not.
Pillbugs, (rollypollys, sowbugs) are trilobite decendants.
Slugs and snails are mollusks, gastropoda.
Spiders and scorpions are arachnids. Land lobsters.

[Admiral Valdemar]

You might want to add some additional organs. Like lungs.

Thank you for pointing that out... I forgot about the other importaint organ systems.


Umm... by the way, how do you add a persons name to the quote, it looks cool but I don't understand how.

Simply click the "quote" button on that person's post.

Other than needing stronger materials to make an exoskeleton and lungs to overcome any breathing problems, I can't really suggest anything else given it is afterall an alien race. Perhaps they could also come from a low gravity planet too.

[Rye]

On a related note- for spaceships, if you use metal for armor, and computers for data processing is there a problem with internal systems being partly biological(i.e. neural interface, ‘grown’ controls, etc)?

You could have somethin g similar to the pilot from farscape, neural interface with the ship ...maybe an extra section of the brain which converts ordinary neural signals into stuff for the ship's computer to understand..my alien biotech species use something like that.

Umm... by the way, how do you add a persons name to the quote, it looks cool but I don't understand how.

The quote button at the top right of everyone's post. Alternatively, write "quote="tekore" per se in brackets, and at the end the obligator [/quote]

You could also have some kind of species that is extremely big and exoskeletal, if you incorporate cyber stuff to enhance them, or completely genetically redesigned limbs ...but i've already done that idea.

EDIT: you could also just invent whole new organs to metabolise stuff, or have some weird lung esque system, but designed totally differently.

[neoolong]

You might want to add some additional organs. Like lungs.

Thank you for pointing that out... I forgot about the other importaint organ systems.


Umm... by the way, how do you add a persons name to the quote, it looks cool but I don't understand how.

Use the quote button at the top right of a person's post and you'll see what the code for it looks like.

[Admiral Valdemar]

As I understood it, 2 things limited the size of insects.

One was oxygen density. True insects do not have lungs or gills, and depend on osmosis, aided by small tunnels, or "spicules" through the body.More oxygen, bigger bugs. Like during rain forest/jungle planet periods, the bugs are up to 8 feet long!

The other was the structural.(the square/cube law of volume/surface area.)
Also, the bigger you are exo style, the further your organs are from their mounting points.
Huge, (by today's standard) insects were common on Jurasic/Cretatious peroids. But they never got above the 8/10 foot lenth.

If you included lungs, and a combonation exo/endo skeleton, the bugs could get every bit as big as a Brontosaurous.
With the same limits the Bronto's had on speed and strenth.

Note, many critters we call insects, are not.
Pillbugs, (rollypollys, sowbugs) are trilobite decendants.
Slugs and snails are mollusks, gastropoda.
Spiders and scorpions are arachnids. Land lobsters.

True, but there are insects that use gills too such as the Stone Fly and Caddis, just pointing out.

Pillbugs or woodlice are crustaceans, so like your average crab or lobster. Spiders and scorpions are arachnids unless otherwise stated, I have no idea what a land lobster is.

Also, I think chitin might be exchanged for another material for the exoskeleton, though it may not matter if a calcium endoskeleton is also present (somehow).

[neoolong]

You could also have some kind of species that is extremely big and exoskeletal, if you incorporate cyber stuff to enhance them, or completely genetically redesigned limbs ...but i've already done that idea.

EDIT: you could also just invent whole new organs to metabolise stuff, or have some weird lung esque system, but designed totally differently.

The problem is that they have to evolve as insects to a certain stature without augmentation to begin with. To gain size and sapience, it'll have to do it biologically and then be able to augment it to larger size or enhanced abilities.

[Howedar]

If you get too big, you have to use a great deal of weight making a sufficiently solid exoskeleton such that the walls do not buckle. Endoskeletons are the way to go.

[neoolong]

If you get too big, you have to use a great deal of weight making a sufficiently solid exoskeleton such that the walls do not buckle. Endoskeletons are the way to go.

Unless you just make up a substance that's superstrong yet thin.

But that's just crazy.

[InnerBrat]

1. An exoskeleton made of a material stronger and more lightweight than chiton (think in the vein of spider-silk, but sturdier)

You've still got problems with the natrue of the internal musuclature and how much strain they can take. You will definitely need to have more complex repiratory, circulatory and nervous systems if you're going to scale up.

2. An internal skeleton with most(if not all) of the exoskeleton being an armor covering of some sort (What phyla/class/group/whatever would this likely fall under)

Are your insects going to be able to fly? Because insect wings require an exoskeleton, and the endoskeleton would get in the way.
There are no phylawith both an endo- and exo-skeleton, and onely one with an endoskelton. What you're describing sounds more like an armadillo
(phylum Chordata: smooth on the inside, crunchy on the outside) than anything else - i.e. an armoured vertebrate.

As I understood it, 2 things limited the size of insects.

One was oxygen density. True insects do not have lungs or gills, and depend on osmosis, aided by small tunnels, or "spicules" through the body.More oxygen, bigger bugs. Like during rain forest/jungle planet periods, the bugs are up to 8 feet long!

The other was the structural.(the square/cube law of volume/surface area.)
Also, the bigger you are exo style, the further your organs are from their mounting points.
Huge, (by today's standard) insects were common on Jurasic/Cretatious peroids. But they never got above the 8/10 foot lenth.

Um, no, there; never been an 8' insect, and certainly not druing the Mesozoic. The largest dragonflies during the Carboniferous were the size of a medium sized bird (couple of feet).

Note, many critters we call insects, are not.

Speak for yourself.

there are insects that use gills too such as the Stone Fly and Caddis

Usually just usingt he larval stage, though - they're theoried to be the origins of insect wings.

Pillbugs or woodlice are crustaceans, so like your average crab or lobster.

So were trilobites, though, so he wasn't far off.

[Ted C]

Like during rain forest/jungle planet periods, the bugs are up to 8 feet long!

Huge, (by today's standard) insects were common on Jurasic/Cretatious peroids. But they never got above the 8/10 foot lenth.

What are you smoking Chrostas?

The world has never seen an eight foot insect, arachnic, or arthropod. Or did you mean "inches" (which would be more accurate)?

[Sindai]

What are you smoking Chrostas?

The world has never seen an eight foot insect, arachnic, or arthropod. Or did you mean "inches" (which would be more accurate)?

I saw an exhibit with three-foot insects once, before any other form of animal life had evolved.

I believe the reason given was the oxygen content of the atmosphere. You can only breath so efficiently through tiny holes in your skin. While exoskeletons do impose a size limit, the current level of oxygen in the atmosphere imposes an even more stringent one.

[Darth Gojira]

Vertebra led to the creation of sentience(I'm ignoring cephalopods) and dinosaurs.
On the other hand, exoskeletons make eating crab an execise in crustacean anatomy. Not to mention fun.

[InnerBrat]

I saw an exhibit with three-foot insects once, before any other form of animal life had evolved.

Now, I realise that smilie might be a little patronising, but trust me, there were no insects before other animal life evolved. Insects arose in the Devonian (Linton, D.; 2002; Coevolution in the Past: An historical perspective on Insects and Angiosperms unpublished), after most other groups, given that the phyla, including Chordata, arose in the Cambrian.

[Darth Gojira]

I saw an exhibit with three-foot insects once, before any other form of animal life had evolved.
.

One word: Seafood. I think you mean to say "LAND animals"