8472 Planet Killer vs Death Star

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-05-21 05:59pm

Sovereign wrote:Perhaps then the Nanoprobes in the Borg can last a very long time, but in the end, not forever. Same goes for S8472. They last a while, but not forever.

OK, now define "a very long time"

Possibly. But then again the fleet could have been targeting the Cubes Power Matrix, and causing the fluxuations, the same way S8472 was tearing up the Cubes Power Grid.

Could have been? We're supposed to be dealing with canon facts and what can be logically derived from them. Fan speculation about "could have been's" are neither. And you committed a circular logic fallacy. You claimed the 8472 was tearing up the cube's power matrix. I asked you to prove it. Now as part of the debate, you say, "well, the 8472 was tearing up the cubes power matrix". You can't use your conclusion to support itself. And in ST:FC, the Feds didn't seem to be targeting any particular spot on the cube until Picard showed up. They were just firing randomly, probably hoping to hit something.

Sovereign · Post by **Sovereign** » 2003-05-21 06:47pm

OK, now define "a very long time"

100 years seen in Canon fact. Any time longer than that, is unknown as of now.

Could have been? We're supposed to be dealing with canon facts and what can be logically derived from them. Fan speculation about "could have been's" are neither. And you committed a circular logic fallacy. You claimed the 8472 was tearing up the cube's power matrix. I asked you to prove it. Now as part of the debate, you say, "well, the 8472 was tearing up the cubes power matrix". You can't use your conclusion to support itself. And in ST:FC, the Feds didn't seem to be targeting any particular spot on the cube until Picard showed up. They were just firing randomly, probably hoping to hit something.

The information is canon, I just can't recall 100% of the things that happened. Federation ships would not fire at just anything, except with Pulse Phaser for close range combat. But if you are going to use Torpedoes and More Torpeodes, than you will search for some kind of Vital system. Data was concerned when Picard told him to target a "Non Vital System". If they were just shooting at the Big Cube, then why would they care for a Specific "Non Vital System"?

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-05-21 06:52pm

Sovereign wrote:
OK, now define "a very long time"
100 years seen in Canon fact. Any time longer than that, is unknown as of now.

Assuming Enterprise is canon.

Considering how badly it screws up continuity and that it doesn't even heve "Star Trek" in the name...

The information is canon, I just can't recall 100% of the things that happened. Federation ships would not fire at just anything, except with Pulse Phaser for close range combat. But if you are going to use Torpedoes and More Torpeodes, than you will search for some kind of Vital system. Data was concerned when Picard told him to target a "Non Vital System". If they were just shooting at the Big Cube, then why would they care for a Specific "Non Vital System"?

But they clearly did NOT hit any vital systems. The cube was still fighting (although it was damaged). The spot where Picard told them to shoot turned out to be the TRUE vital system. The Fed sensors were clearly wrong. Don't trust them on this matter.

Sovereign · Post by **Sovereign** » 2003-05-21 07:05pm

Assuming Enterprise is canon. Considering how badly it screws up continuity and that it doesn't even heve "Star Trek" in the name...

Name is no matter. Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, was just refered to as DS9, which is they name of the station. And Star Trek: Voyager Was refered to as just Voyager. So they made is easy and named it Enterprise instead of Star Trek: Enterprise.

But they clearly did NOT hit any vital systems. The cube was still fighting (although it was damaged). The spot where Picard told them to shoot turned out to be the TRUE vital system. The Fed sensors were clearly wrong. Don't trust them on this matter.

Vital system are deep inside the cube to be protected. The only reason Picard knew of a specific weakness is because he could still here the Collective. True about Fed sensors though. Picard and Seven are the only two in all of Starfleet that know what they are talking about.

Striderteen · Post by **Striderteen** » 2003-05-21 07:24pm

Darth Servo wrote:
Sovereign wrote:
OK, now define "a very long time"
100 years seen in Canon fact. Any time longer than that, is unknown as of now.
Assuming Enterprise is canon. Considering how badly it screws up continuity and that it doesn't even heve "Star Trek" in the name...
The information is canon, I just can't recall 100% of the things that happened. Federation ships would not fire at just anything, except with Pulse Phaser for close range combat. But if you are going to use Torpedoes and More Torpeodes, than you will search for some kind of Vital system. Data was concerned when Picard told him to target a "Non Vital System". If they were just shooting at the Big Cube, then why would they care for a Specific "Non Vital System"?
But they clearly did NOT hit any vital systems. The cube was still fighting (although it was damaged). The spot where Picard told them to shoot turned out to be the TRUE vital system. The Fed sensors were clearly wrong. Don't trust them on this matter.

Yes, they *thought* they were shooting at vital systems when they clearly were not...Picard had them re-targetted to something that was clearly both vital and vulnerable, resulting in a nice big explosion.

Anarchist Bunny · Post by **Anarchist Bunny** » 2003-05-21 08:20pm

Sovereign wrote:
Assuming Enterprise is canon. Considering how badly it screws up continuity and that it doesn't even heve "Star Trek" in the name...
Name is no matter. Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, was just refered to as DS9, which is they name of the station. And Star Trek: Voyager Was refered to as just Voyager. So they made is easy and named it Enterprise instead of Star Trek: Enterprise.

But they clearly did NOT hit any vital systems. The cube was still fighting (although it was damaged). The spot where Picard told them to shoot turned out to be the TRUE vital system. The Fed sensors were clearly wrong. Don't trust them on this matter.
Vital system are deep inside the cube to be protected. The only reason Picard knew of a specific weakness is because he could still here the Collective. True about Fed sensors though. Picard and Seven are the only two in all of Starfleet that know what they are talking about.

They don't mean what it is called stupid. Star Trek is NOT in the title of Enterprise, it's just Enterprise.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-05-22 06:56pm

Sovereign wrote:Name is no matter. Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, was just refered to as DS9, which is they name of the station. And Star Trek: Voyager Was refered to as just Voyager. So they made is easy and named it Enterprise instead of Star Trek: Enterprise.

Your counter examples are only examples of SLANG. The official titles of those series was still "Star Trek: DS9" and "Star Trek: Voyager" Enterprise is just Enterprise. Besides, the Feds clearly had no knowledge of the Borg prior to "Q-who" so "Enterprise" clearly is in a different time line.

Vital system are deep inside the cube to be protected. The only reason Picard knew of a specific weakness is because he could still here the Collective. True about Fed sensors though. Picard and Seven are the only two in all of Starfleet that know what they are talking about.

None of this changes the fact that they STILL HIT SOMETHING VITAL, hence the cube blew up.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2003-05-22 08:29pm

Sovereign, respond to this thread, and these:
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=8920
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=12237
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=12143
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=8862
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=7663
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=6131
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=4769

Sovereign · Post by **Sovereign** » 2003-05-22 09:15pm

Your counter examples are only examples of SLANG. The official titles of those series was still "Star Trek: DS9" and "Star Trek: Voyager" Enterprise is just Enterprise. Besides, the Feds clearly had no knowledge of the Borg prior to "Q-who" so "Enterprise" clearly is in a different time line.

The Title is irrelevant anyway as long as it says "Based on Star Trek", and then features Starfleet, Klingons, Romulans, Borg, etc.

None of this changes the fact that they STILL HIT SOMETHING VITAL, hence the cube blew up.

So they destroyed it. So many cubes have been destroyed in Star Trek. Besides, who knows how long this battle lasted, or how long it took and how many ships it fought on its way towards Sol.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2003-05-22 09:24pm

Sovereign, am I invisible to you?

Sovereign · Post by **Sovereign** » 2003-05-22 09:33pm

Sovereign, am I invisible to you?

The focus is now on this thread, not those. I have saved those threads and show them on my sig. I will one day return to those, or just restate them in new one, but until then I would like to Focus on this one. I would appreciate it if everyone else would do the same.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-05-22 09:37pm

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=12237
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=12143
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=8862
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=7663
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=6131
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=4769

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2003-05-22 09:44pm

Sovereign wrote:
Sovereign, am I invisible to you?
The focus is now on this thread, not those. I have saved those threads and show them on my sig. I will one day return to those, or just restate them in new one, but until then I would like to Focus on this one. I would appreciate it if everyone else would do the same.

No. You ran away from those threads.

Sovereign · Post by **Sovereign** » 2003-05-22 09:56pm

Enforcer Talen wrote:http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=12237
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=12143
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=8862
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=7663
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=6131
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=4769

Smart Ass

Thrawn wrote:No. You ran away from those threads.

I abandoned them because the subject was changed once too many, so I created more, and the same thing happened. It is happening here too. So call it what you wish, but it is a thing of the past.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-05-22 10:10pm

You're a fucking liar and a God damn coward, Sovereign.
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=12237
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=12143
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=8862
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=7663
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=6131
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=4769

Fuck you, you foul little whore.

Sovereign · Post by **Sovereign** » 2003-05-22 10:14pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:You're a fucking liar and a God damn coward, Sovereign.
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=12237
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=12143
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=8862
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=7663
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=6131
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=4769

Fuck you, you foul little whore.

I Am So Fucking Scared!

The Name Calling Is So Scary!

Lets Try To Debate For Real. Jesus People, Are We Trek/Wars Debaters or Crybaby Name Callers?

Anarchist Bunny · Post by **Anarchist Bunny** » 2003-05-22 10:19pm

Sovereign wrote: Lets Try To Debate For Real.

Funny, coming from someone who debating tactic is to run in, dance around the real subject, and then flee like a VC into the night.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-05-22 10:22pm

Are you going to acknowledge your defeat in these, or merely put them in your sig?

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=12237
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=12143
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=8862
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=7663
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=6131
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=4769

Sovereign wrote:
Assuming Enterprise is canon. Considering how badly it screws up continuity and that it doesn't even heve "Star Trek" in the name...
Name is no matter. Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, was just refered to as DS9, which is they name of the station. And Star Trek: Voyager Was refered to as just Voyager. So they made is easy and named it Enterprise instead of Star Trek: Enterprise.

Your point is also completely irrelevant, assuming you cannot ALSO explain how something can be canonical if it BLATANTLY disregards and contradicts other canonical information on a level never before hinted at. Moreover, the name is relevant. People referred to ST:TNG as "The Next Generation," or even (God forbid) "NexGen." I didn't see them rename Star Trek: Voyager "Voy" or Star Trek: Deep Space Nine "DS9." Further, by explaining that the motive was unrelated you are essentially admitting to an appeal to motive fallacy, in which you claim that the motive negates the repercussions of the action taken.

But they clearly did NOT hit any vital systems. The cube was still fighting (although it was damaged). The spot where Picard told them to shoot turned out to be the TRUE vital system. The Fed sensors were clearly wrong. Don't trust them on this matter.
Vital system are deep inside the cube to be protected. The only reason Picard knew of a specific weakness is because he could still here the Collective. True about Fed sensors though. Picard and Seven are the only two in all of Starfleet that know what they are talking about.

Nice self-contradiction. "Vital system are deep inside teh cube to be protected," but Picard knew one was close to the surface. You haven't changed a bit since you got owned in the other threads, have you?

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-05-22 10:30pm

Sovereign wrote:
Thrawn wrote:No. You ran away from those threads.
I abandoned them because the subject was changed once too many, so I created more, and the same thing happened. It is happening here too. So call it what you wish, but it is a thing of the past.

Fuck off, Sovereign. I notice that in this thread:

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 20&start=0

the subject was never changed from the original topic, indicating conclusively that you DID NOT "[abandon] them because the subject was changed once too many." I don't know who you think you're fooling, jackass, but EVERYONE can see that you left just as your ass was beginning to get thrown around by serious debaters in EVERY SINGLE ONE of those threads that were listed above. Despite numerous calls to do so, you refused to acknowledge defeat on this thread, even though it clearly refuted claims you had made previously.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-05-22 10:33pm

Lets Try To Debate For Real.

Alright. Let's do it.

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=8920

Jesus People, Are We Trek/Wars Debaters or Crybaby Name Callers?

We are nothing. I am a debater and small-time flamer. Spanky the Dolphin is a debater and a big-time flamer. You are a coward who refuses to acknowledge defeat, runs from your spectacular losses, attempts to justify this reprehensible behavior with the excuse that you would eventually get back to it, even though you left ALL of the threads previously mentioned without explanation. You also contradict yourself on a regular basis, act like a jerk for a day or two before running away for weeks or months, and then return and act as though you cannot comprehend why people are attacking your behavior and flame you almost immediately.

Sovereign · Post by **Sovereign** » 2003-05-29 04:12pm

Master of Ossus wrote:WTF? The ANH novelization describes the DS being hit by debris from the planet it destroyed, which is confirmed the film itself. The "ring-shaped" explosions did NOT contain ALL of the debris left over by the destruction of Alderaan, which is visible BOTH in the shots of the destruction of the planet, and later in Han Solo's flight through the asteroid field left behind by the destruction of the planet. Your statement makes no sense.

Well, to bring this up from before, you said the ANH book states that the DS was hit by the planets debris after destruction. Give me a page number and they part of the book that states that, plus the author. I would really like to know, I might just take defeat if you can give me that info...

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-05-29 04:45pm

Sovereign wrote:Well, to bring this up from before, you said the ANH book states that the DS was hit by the planets debris after destruction. Give me a page number and they part of the book that states that, plus the author. I would really like to know, I might just take defeat if you can give me that info...

Star Wars ANH novellisation, George Lucas

I don't know the bit he refers to though.

BTW If you watch the film, as the DS fires, the display shows what is likely the predicted dispersal and displacement of the debris.

Sovereign · Post by **Sovereign** » 2003-05-29 05:03pm

NecronLord wrote:Star Wars ANH novellisation, George Lucas

I know that, but I wanted to make sure he read the same one, because I dont recall, infact I reread the part of the book and it did not say anything of the debris hitting it. Infact, it never had the planets destruction at all. The chapter ends with...

George Lucas wrote:He gestured to the two soldiers flanking her. "Escort her to the principal observation level and," he smiled, "make certain she is provided with an unobstructed view"

Then the next time they show the DS, it opens with Vadar walking in and he says...

George Lucas wrote:"The defense system on Alderaan, despite the Senator's protestations to the contrary, were as strong as any in the Empire. I should conclude that our demonstration was as impressive as it was thorough."

The test was clearly over, it said nothing of debris slamming the ship.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-05-29 05:03pm

I see it has returned.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-05-29 05:04pm

Sovereign, do you really think the debris simply flew AROUND the DS w/o hitting it?

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8472 Planet Killer vs Death Star

8472s ability to destroy planets vs Death Star's