Enforcer Talen wrote:anyone else think some of the kids know its fake? thats my take on the spoon scene - the kid gives neo a spoon, because there isnt one in this world either.
admittedly, that can be taken as a reminder of how to work in the inner matrix, but with the ending of him stopping sentinels like bullets, I think the spoon ties in well.
Quite. Some of the kids realized the second layer was also a Matrix, and gave a hint to the one person they thought could do something about it. And, despite the Architect's speech, when he returned to the real world, he used his powers.
also, I dont think most of the machines know its fake. smith was certainly confused when he was brought to the new reality, and I find it easier to believe that hes a program operating in a new image then a patch of electricity somehow brought into the real world and possessing someone.
I'm not sure about the validity of the idea programs shouldn't possess humans, but it may link to Smith cutting his human body's hand. He seemed almost contemplative("I should be feeling pain.. Hrm.. Something is most irregular here.."). Of course, it may be that he hates his body.
Nitram? This is the same arguement we're having at home. Just because you can't convince me doesn't mean you have to take it out on everyone else
SIT BOY!
*CHEEP!*
Stupid sound guy, well that WAS suppose to be a whip cracking sound.
//This Line Blank as of 7/15/07\\ Ornithology Subdirector: SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences
Wiilite
Okay, I admit I'm only a lurker here, but is it me or Nitram is calling "moron" and "stupid" everyone that doesn't buy the matrix-in-the-matrix theory?
Let's face it, the multiple matrix is as likely as the mean characters waking up after a night of debauchery and alcohol saying: "Aww man, you'll not believe the wierd dream I've had!" (don't recall which reviewer that said that)
We know Neo has a special connection with the Matrix. Be it because he is a program in a human body (like Smith copying himself in a Zion-guy) or he is the product of a glitch in the creation/maturation system (the machine grow the humans, if "the One"-bug repeats itself, it's likely due to a programmation error). Maybe it's God or aliens messing up with the Matrix!
From the two movies, we don't know! Why should we be stupids if we're trying to explain Neo connection when he's unplugged by a wierd mechanical/mystical phenomenon?
"We don't suspend disbelief, we hang it until it's dead!" Major Cam Corder, Sevgates Cartoon Strip
Enricko wrote:We know Neo has a special connection with the Matrix. Be it because he is a program in a human body (like Smith copying himself in a Zion-guy) or he is the product of a glitch in the creation/maturation system (the machine grow the humans, if "the One"-bug repeats itself, it's likely due to a programmation error). Maybe it's God or aliens messing up with the Matrix!
From the two movies, we don't know! Why should we be stupids if we're trying to explain Neo connection when he's unplugged by a wierd mechanical/mystical phenomenon?
Irrelevent metaphors.
By the way, it is called Ockam's Razor.
"You know what the problem with Hollywood is. They make shit. Unbelievable. Unremarkable. Shit." - Gabriel Shear, Swordfish
"This statement, in its utterly clueless hubristic stupidity, cannot be improved upon. I merely quote it in admiration of its perfection." - Garibaldi in reply to an incredibly stupid post.
The Fifth Illuminatus Primus | Warsie | Skeptical Empiricist | Florida Gator | Sustainability Advocate | LibertarianSocialist |
Enricko wrote:We know Neo has a special connection with the Matrix. Be it because he is a program in a human body (like Smith copying himself in a Zion-guy) or he is the product of a glitch in the creation/maturation system (the machine grow the humans, if "the One"-bug repeats itself, it's likely due to a programmation error). Maybe it's God or aliens messing up with the Matrix!
From the two movies, we don't know! Why should we be stupids if we're trying to explain Neo connection when he's unplugged by a wierd mechanical/mystical phenomenon?
Irrelevent metaphors.
By the way, it is called Ockam's Razor.
Ockham's Razor does not really apply to a work of fiction. How often does sci-fi follow Ockham's Razor? I mean look at Star Trek or the X-Files, they come up with new incredibly complex explanations for strange happenings each show. Sci-Fi is a genre that more often than not, totally dismisses Ockham's Razor.
Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:Where's the One in this second Matrix? Why does it work and the first doesn't?
I guess if the theory has anything to it (I don't think so, personally, I think the Second Matrix is retarded plot wise) then Neo is the One in that Matrix as well- he did stop a squadron of Sentinels cold, remember?
The Matrix-in-the-Matrix theory is only based on Neo zapping the Sentinels. It can be explain by Neo having access to the system while unplugged. He was near a transmission level, if we take account that the machines let anyone transmit unauthorized command to their system, it's possible they're picking Neo's brain waves with the cranial plug acting like an antenna...
In a sci-fi setting with supernatural phenomenons like premonitions and the Oracle, Occam's razor useless!
About the spoon, I personally think the spoon is more about perceptions instead of the irreality of the World. In Reloaded, the mean plot was the Prophesy's realisation and Neo's perception of himself. The spoon is a reminder that if Neo change is perception, he can do what he thought impossible (like saving Trinity).
"We don't suspend disbelief, we hang it until it's dead!" Major Cam Corder, Sevgates Cartoon Strip
This whole Matrix-within-a-Matrix thing doesn't fly with me. Zombie covered it pretty well, but I think if they were going in that direction, it would be better suited for a double trilogy movie. The realization of it, and learning how to use their powers in that second matrix with a degree of control, etc, then finding a way to get back to the actual real world is far more than could be covered in just one movie.
The spoon thing. I don't think this makes a good point for justification of the real world being a second matrix. The spoon was pitted, definetly looking very hand made and flawed. I think it was to remind Neo that in this world there isn't the perfection of the Matrix, and that in this world machines do not create and govern everything.
The speech by the councilor seems another thing that is used to justify the theory. I think the concept there was to show the irony of how they are fighting machines that control their lives, but are still dependant on them to some degree. I think it's to remind them of humanity's past errors-not to becomen too dependant on the machines, as is shown in the past of that world in the Animatrix episodes.
Agent Smith's downloading into Bane, another justification point. That he is confused in the real world. Of course he is confused. He's never been there before. You see him carving his hand. He has never known pain. Now he does. It's to show that in this world, he has his limitations. He is confused by the humanity that has now been applied to his life. Furthermore, the game Enter the Matrix shows Smith carving a third line into his hand, a vertical one at that, and it gives the appearance of the jappanese character that stands for "Red". I doubt that was coincidental. Red pill to the real world.
Neo's powers. I think this is due to his crossover connection with Smith. The whole "A part of you copied to me and me to you" thing. And I'd like to point out that Neo doesn't feel the connection until after Smith has gone the real world, which probably had something to due with the connection.
The whole Matrix-within-a-matrix thing would be far to dark for hte ending of the series. Everything they would have fought for would have been for nothing. Absolutley everything. They still would be stuck in the Matrix, and not free. That's far more dark than the relevation that the One is nothing more than a reset switch as the Architect tells Neo. In telling that the Prophecy is false, and rebelling against the system, I think Neo will more than likely end up fulfilling it anyway.
Just another note, as I've been playing through Enter the Matrix, I came to a cut scene (done with the live actors) between Niobe and the Oracle. The Oracle tells Niobe that Neo is lost in a place between the two worlds, and that only Trinity can rescue him. Niobe asks if it is possible, and the Oracle answers her "Yes, but she'll have to fight through hell to do it." Just a little spoiler for Matrix Revolutions for ya.
"And as I promised, I said I would read from the bible..." "...And if we could turn our bible to Pslams..."Happy shall he be that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones." (Pslams 137:9) So let me ask you a question? Who is the worst influence, God or Marilyn Manson?" "God!" "And if that's not the best fucking example, God HIMSELF killed his own MOTHER FUCKING SON!"-Marilyn Manson
"Don't fuck with a Jedi Master, son..." -M.H in J.A.S.B.S.B
Achieved ultimate Doom (post 666) on Mon Aug 18, 2003 10:38 pm
Excellent points by Xerxes and Hobot. Its nice to finally have some backup.
If you ask me, the multiple-matrix theory fails on one point alone--people are guaranteed to wake up from it. If there was a second Matrix, the exact same scenario as in the Real World would arise, wherin a small percentage inenvitably wake up and rebel. The machines could not stop this, that is why they have the One and the prophecy, that is the whole point of the story. The second Matrix is an impossibility because it is utterly useless to the machines.
In the above, when I was talking about the carving, I meant horizontal line. No edit button. Sorry guys.
"And as I promised, I said I would read from the bible..." "...And if we could turn our bible to Pslams..."Happy shall he be that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones." (Pslams 137:9) So let me ask you a question? Who is the worst influence, God or Marilyn Manson?" "God!" "And if that's not the best fucking example, God HIMSELF killed his own MOTHER FUCKING SON!"-Marilyn Manson
"Don't fuck with a Jedi Master, son..." -M.H in J.A.S.B.S.B
Achieved ultimate Doom (post 666) on Mon Aug 18, 2003 10:38 pm
Hobot wrote:Ockham's Razor does not really apply to a work of fiction. How often does sci-fi follow Ockham's Razor? I mean look at Star Trek or the X-Files, they come up with new incredibly complex explanations for strange happenings each show. Sci-Fi is a genre that more often than not, totally dismisses Ockham's Razor.
Irrelevent.
When gathering information and coming to conclusions from sci-fi, valid reasoning still includes Ockam's Razor.
"You know what the problem with Hollywood is. They make shit. Unbelievable. Unremarkable. Shit." - Gabriel Shear, Swordfish
"This statement, in its utterly clueless hubristic stupidity, cannot be improved upon. I merely quote it in admiration of its perfection." - Garibaldi in reply to an incredibly stupid post.
The Fifth Illuminatus Primus | Warsie | Skeptical Empiricist | Florida Gator | Sustainability Advocate | LibertarianSocialist |
Enricko wrote:The Matrix-in-the-Matrix theory is only based on Neo zapping the Sentinels. It can be explain by Neo having access to the system while unplugged. He was near a transmission level, if we take account that the machines let anyone transmit unauthorized command to their system, it's possible they're picking Neo's brain waves with the cranial plug acting like an antenna...
In a sci-fi setting with supernatural phenomenons like premonitions and the Oracle, Occam's razor useless!
About the spoon, I personally think the spoon is more about perceptions instead of the irreality of the World. In Reloaded, the mean plot was the Prophesy's realisation and Neo's perception of himself. The spoon is a reminder that if Neo change is perception, he can do what he thought impossible (like saving Trinity).
Translation: You don't understand valid reasoning, and why Ockam's Razor isn't simply something you dismiss.
Conclusions are more logically valid when evaluated with Ockam's Razor. Is this difficult to comprehend?
"You know what the problem with Hollywood is. They make shit. Unbelievable. Unremarkable. Shit." - Gabriel Shear, Swordfish
"This statement, in its utterly clueless hubristic stupidity, cannot be improved upon. I merely quote it in admiration of its perfection." - Garibaldi in reply to an incredibly stupid post.
The Fifth Illuminatus Primus | Warsie | Skeptical Empiricist | Florida Gator | Sustainability Advocate | LibertarianSocialist |
Saw it last night and it FUCKING ROCKS!
Some bits were a bit slow but for me most of it just RoXoRed my SoXoRs (or whatever that hacker crap is) . It was also funny in parts, my fav's:
"Just me, me ,me." "Me too."
"Where's my puss-hey kids"
Neo and the doors at the mountain place.
IMO Smith is one of the greatest film villains ever and Hugo Weaving will never escape him, rather like Mark Hamil and Luke Skywalker. I've already succomed to saying "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr Baggins" whenever i watch LoTR.
On the "Real world = matrix" arguement i'm going with the real world = real world idea, given that it would be insanely stupid for the Wachowskis (sp) to open up the "possibilities of infinate matrixs" idea.
side note: If the real world is another matrix what does that make of the animatrix shorts?
The whole car chase was completely kick ass! Lots of destruction = good although i'm still wondering how Morpheus got on top of that lorry in the first place.
And this film receives the highest accolade from me as it joins the hallowed Halls Of Films That Made Me Wait Till The End Of The Movie Before I Go Take A Piss. (Although i had to use the "lost my mobile" excuse to get back in for the Revolutions trailer)
Ph34r teh eyebrow!!11!Writers GuildSluggitePawn of ChaosWYGIWYGAINGW so now i have to put ACPATHNTDWATGODW in my sigEBC-Honorary Geordie Hammerman! Hammer!
Enricko wrote:The Matrix-in-the-Matrix theory is only based on Neo zapping the Sentinels. It can be explain by Neo having access to the system while unplugged. He was near a transmission level, if we take account that the machines let anyone transmit unauthorized command to their system, it's possible they're picking Neo's brain waves with the cranial plug acting like an antenna...
In a sci-fi setting with supernatural phenomenons like premonitions and the Oracle, Occam's razor useless!
About the spoon, I personally think the spoon is more about perceptions instead of the irreality of the World. In Reloaded, the mean plot was the Prophesy's realisation and Neo's perception of himself. The spoon is a reminder that if Neo change is perception, he can do what he thought impossible (like saving Trinity).
Translation: You don't understand valid reasoning, and why Ockam's Razor isn't simply something you dismiss.
Conclusions are more logically valid when evaluated with Ockam's Razor. Is this difficult to comprehend?
The principle of parsimony is not like the laws of thermodynamics and it is useless when it comes to World settings where magic happens. You begin to sound like the Borg when you're always saying "Irrelevent"! In the Matrix, we clearly see premonitions becoming true, but it's not because we cannot give you a scientific explanation that they don't exist (in the Matrix context).
Irrelevent.
When gathering information and coming to conclusions from sci-fi, valid reasoning still includes Ockam's Razor.
Ah, but with the Occam's razor principle, usually the simpler: the better. When it comes to a sci-fi movie where supernatural things happens, like Star Wars, impossible is what you get! When Yado lift Luke's X-Wing from the swamps, which valid reasoning is better:
Yoda's using the Force?
OR
Yoda is using an hidden tractor beam and waving his right hand while with the left he holds the remote?
The second proposition should be true with Occam's priciple because it doesn't include a wierd energy field that someone can control with his mind... But which is true in the Empire Strikes Back?
"We don't suspend disbelief, we hang it until it's dead!" Major Cam Corder, Sevgates Cartoon Strip
Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:Where's the One in this second Matrix? Why does it work and the first doesn't?
I guess if the theory has anything to it (I don't think so, personally, I think the Second Matrix is retarded plot wise) then Neo is the One in that Matrix as well- he did stop a squadron of Sentinels cold, remember?
Concidering there has been around 1 and a quarter humans freed by all the Ones, and a mere 99.9% succes rate, there should be alot of people that refuse the Second MAtrix.
"You know, I was God once."
"Yes, I saw. You were doing well, until everyone died."
Bender and God, Futurama
The theory that a second layer of the Matrix is in place with Zion fighting the good cause so that the minds rebelling can stay occupied is fishy. Why not fill the first layer with enough wars, hunger, violence, porn that nobody would have time to think?
"We don't suspend disbelief, we hang it until it's dead!" Major Cam Corder, Sevgates Cartoon Strip
Also another thing on the Real World == ? thing. Neo sees in code in the Matrix, but not when he's jacked out.
Also I have a theory on Smith's copying ability. As an Agent he could load himself into other bodies at will throught the network. Now that he's cut off from the network, he is still loading himself into bodies, but is now able to do it without removing himself from the orginal host(possibly because the restrictions made by other machines, but requires direct contact to do so.
//This Line Blank as of 7/15/07\\ Ornithology Subdirector: SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences
Wiilite
anarchistbunny wrote:Also another thing on the Real World == ? thing. Neo sees in code in the Matrix, but not when he's jacked out.
Also I have a theory on Smith's copying ability. As an Agent he could load himself into other bodies at will throught the network. Now that he's cut off from the network, he is still loading himself into bodies, but is now able to do it without removing himself from the orginal host(possibly because the restrictions made by other machines, but requires direct contact to do so.
One interesting question is: What happen to a person who was taken over by an Agent, but discarded later when the Agent presence is required elsewhere?
"We don't suspend disbelief, we hang it until it's dead!" Major Cam Corder, Sevgates Cartoon Strip
Enricko wrote:
One interesting question is: What happen to a person who was taken over by an Agent, but discarded later when the Agent presence is required elsewhere?
Remember when Trinity says "Dodge this." in the original? They change back. Probably wondering what the hell happened.
yes, but that only applies to an Agent; consider Smith in Reloaded. Smith is different--he has become a virus. When he assimiltes Bane (and later Neo and Morpheus) he does so in a different way--he tries to take over their bodies as a permanent virus.
Its an interesting twist. When Smith was an Agent in the first film he calls human beings "a disease" and a "virus--you move to an area and multiply and when every resource has been consumed you spread to a new area". Interesting that Smith has become one himself. And not only that, he has become a real-life virus, infecting Bane. Imagine if Smith did this to multiple people--the Smith Epidemic!
Enricko wrote:One interesting question is: What happen to a person who was taken over by an Agent, but discarded later when the Agent presence is required elsewhere?
Well, if the game Enter the Matrix is canon(which I think it is), then they just unload from the person and he doesn't know where he is or how he got their.
//This Line Blank as of 7/15/07\\ Ornithology Subdirector: SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences
Wiilite
Enricko wrote:One interesting question is: What happen to a person who was taken over by an Agent, but discarded later when the Agent presence is required elsewhere?
Well, if the game Enter the Matrix is canon(which I think it is), then they just unload from the person and he doesn't know where he is or how he got their.
It explains how people can sleepwalk and end up in places. Especially when it happens during the day.
Vympel wrote:
Remember when Trinity says "Dodge this." in the original? They change back. Probably wondering what the hell happened.
He was beyond wondering. A bullet to the brain does that.
Mayabird is my girlfriend
Justice League:BotM:MM:SDnet City Watch:Cybertron's Finest "Well then, science is bullshit. "
-revprez, with yet another brilliant rebuttal.
Saw the movie yesterday... Here's what I wrote on another board.
"Reloaded" certainly raised more new questions than answered. Especially Neo's confrontation with the Architect at the Source left me extremely troubled. Right now, I think there's no telling how the "Revolutions" will end the story in November.
What did Neo mean by saying that "Something feels different - I can sense them" and how did he stop those Sentinels? Is this the end of the 6th version of Matrix? Is Persephone the real "mother" of Matrix? Will Zion be destroyed? And what exactly does our Agent-gone-rogue, Mr Smith want?
Although the semi-philosophical discussions between the characters, especially the one between the council member and Neo in Zion, felt a bit clumsy, I actually liked them. The atmosphere throughout the movie was very foreboding and dark - perhaps a sign of things to come.
Action sequences were great, but sadly they didn't have the same fantastic feeling of the first movie. None of them came close to the original mindblowing lobby shootout with "Spybreak!" playing in the background.
---
@ bunny
Yeah, Enter the Matrix is canon.
"Thousands of years ago cats were worshipped as gods. Cats have never forgotten this."
