A goofy thread that actually makes some sense.

[JodoForce]

Still, he has a point: we need to prove that the 'chain reaction' in the Namek explosion applies to all other energy blasts on all other objects, or that no such chain reaction is involved in anything OTHER than the Namek explosion--including other (instantaneous) planet destructions, which would then be interpreted as straight detonation events.

But, seeing as the Namek explosion is so different from everything else, I think the burden is on him to prove that neither of the above is true.

Seeing as we have x number of DBZers here against just the one of him, the burden of proof is on him in this sense at least

[JodoForce]

The same reason Endor should be a lifeless wasteland.

You imply here that if normal accepted calcs for the power of SW weapons are followed on Endor, Endor should be a lifeless wasteland? Then I suppose I can use the same reasoning you are using about Roshi to conclude that SW weapons all act by some strange chain reaction instead of brute force?

I don't think that's what you mean, but can you clarify?

[ShinjiGohan]

The reason DBZ is stupid, hmm, maybe because Dende and Kibbito, with a power level of jack shit, can heal and restore to full power people with 50 gajillion times their energy.

Not that it deals with the topic, but how bad is that anyway? We have the senzu which do the same time, only instantly, and keeps up full for a month. Why wouldn't a namek that was bread to be the kami-sama of a planet, and Kibbit, a person assistent to the GOD of the DBU not be able to heal someone instantly, if Korin can just planet seeds that could do the same?

The reason why Roshi destroying the moon wasn't DET? The same reason Endor should be a lifeless wasteland. Detonation velocity< Earth's gravity, most of the moon's matter falls on the Earth in short order. Detonation velocity> Earth's Gravity, the surface of the Earth facing the Moon is nearly instantly slagged. The moon was destroyed, yes, destroyed by DET, hell no.
Oh, and Goku's maximum continuous acceleration at one point on the way to Namek was no greater than 1kps/s.

Except for the minor detail that it did destroy the moon without any side effects on the earth.

[AdmiralKanos]

If these people were in Star Trek, Kirk would discover that there's some hidden power source which gives them their abilities, and then he'd trick it into blowing itself up by asking it weird questions

[Kuja]

Fine. It shows he destroyed a planet somehow. How does this exactly mean he fired 2e32 joules worth of energy at the target? (Hint: what is going to be the momentum of a 2e32 joule blast? And how much does Vegeta weigh?)

Since Vegeta is shown walking around on the ground and on the floors of buildings, there is no reason to assume he weighs any more than a normal human.

As to the first point, Vegeta obviously must have a way to counteract the momentum.

I'm questioning whether or not Vegeta actually PRODUCED the required amount of energy to blow up the planet, not that it actually occured.

How can you argue that he DIDN'T? Vegeta points at planet. Planet goes boom. Planet goes boom so completely that the only remains are dust. He can you POSSIBLY argue that he didn't put out enough power?

Your counterargument ignores the fact that HAD it been a direct energy transfer event (the point I am disputing, you might remember), the planet should have blown up the very second the bolt struck. It would not have drilled down throught he crust, had a chain reaction, etc. This PROVES my point. Get it?

Your so-called argument proves my point for me: Frieza's blast clearly wasn't a DET. However, every OTHER time a plaent or moon is destroyed in DB/DBZ, it happens instantly. Frieza destroying Namek is the exception, not the rule.

Simple, yes. Quantitative analysis? No.

Oh well. Guess that means all my claims are worthless, eh?

And he was still sitting there, rather than being flung away from the planet at near-lightspeed. That doesnt strike you as being a problem?

Why should it? If Vegeta has the ability to counteract the momentum of his own planet-killing energy blasts, he should have the ability to withstand the results of those blasts, don't you think?

[SAMAS]

Actually, on the question of a lack of recoil, there may be an answer.

This actually occurs a few times in DB and DBZ, but the situation that first comes to mind is Nail's battle with Freeza.

In the earlier parts of the battle, Nail strikes Freeza several times with full-force strikes. Just going by what we know of the LoP, and even Dragonball Physics, the power in his stikes should've been enough to send Freeza flying, even if he wasn't actually hurt by the attack, something that happens often in DBZ, and even happens later to Freeza himself.

However, Freeza didn't move an inch. he skin wasn't even disturbed by the blows, despite the force behind them(this was illustrated perfectly by a chop Nail delivered to Freeza's neck).

It's implied, if not drectly stated, that the Z-warriors and their enemies may be able to use their chi to absorb or negate physical force. To a point, at least.

[SAMAS]

Your counterargument ignores the fact that HAD it been a direct energy transfer event (the point I am disputing, you might remember), the planet should have blown up the very second the bolt struck. It would not have drilled down throught he crust, had a chain reaction, etc. This PROVES my point. Get it?

Your so-called argument proves my point for me: Frieza's blast clearly wasn't a DET. However, every OTHER time a plaent or moon is destroyed in DB/DBZ, it happens instantly. Frieza destroying Namek is the exception, not the rule.

And in fact, it was DET anyway. When he threw the Death Ball down(which is a thrown attack, by the way), there was a huge explosion, and many people thought that the planet was going to go up right there.

But like he said, he held back too much. Instead of blowing the planet up, he pretty much blew it out. The force he exerted was enough for the planet to rip itself apart on it's own in five minutes, so he left it at that.

[JodoForce]

Except planets probably shouldn't go boom like that by itself.

We would have to argue either that planets have a different composition in DBZ such that they do go boom by themselves when damaged a certain extent, or that the chain reaction is inherent in DBZ energy bolts.

In the first case, only the Namek explosion was seen as a chain reaction; the other planet destructions were so immediate that we should not think of those as chain reactions unless the other side offers some convincing arguments. In the latter case, well, the chain reaction would apply to all energy strikes, so it doesn't matter that a chain reaction is needed because the chain reaction works on anything.

[consequences]

Shinjigohan you just proved my freaking point. There is no way for a moon to explode via DET that doesn't result in bad shit happening to the planet below, but there are various funky effects that could destroy the moon without those bad things happening.
Senzu beans are there own special brand of BS, having never been quantified. People with ridiculously low power can't give more power than they have to others, period. If they can do that, then there is no point in quantifying anything about DBZ, because clearly it is the Infinite Fun space of some demented mind, and no logical rules at all apply to it.
I actually had a theory to account for a gret deal of the crap in DBZ, which went unnoticed by just about every Z-lunatic.

[JodoForce]

Shinjigohan you just proved my freaking point. There is no way for a moon to explode via DET that doesn't result in bad shit happening to the planet below

If the explosion was just enough to overcome the moon's gravitational potential energy, would bad shit still happen to earth? If the moon exploded via some funky chain reaction, how does that prevent bad shit from happening to earth? The pieces would still fly in all directions including towards earth...

[Yogi]

There's a theory around (not made by me, someone else, who I give credit to, wherever he may be) that the DBZ Chi-abiliies are really highy localized gravity distortions.

1) Whenever they train, they train in intense gravity.
2) Whenever they power up, rocks and stuff fly up into the air.
3) They can control the Area of Effect of their attacks (Goku's Kamehameha barely scorching the ground, while Piccolo's Makkankosappo blowing a huge hole in the mountain0
4) They use their own gravity field around them to counter the attacks of others (why their clothes survive, andwhy Saiya-jin armor seems to be effective at all power levels).

Just a thought.

[consequences]

You hit moon with a lot of energy.
Moon detonates.
If Moon detonates slow, all of moon falls on earth.
If Moon detonates fast, then only parts of moon hit earth, but very fast.
If moon converts to energy, then Earth's surface cleansed of life by ridiculous energy bombardment.
Only way to counter is to have giant invisible hand push either moon, or big honking fragments of moon away from planet at greater than escape velocity.
Or, if giant invisible hand silly and inefficient, could push Earth away from moon fragments instead.
Since Moon observed to detonate omnidirectionally, and Piccolo did nothing after initial blast, Giant invisible hand theory difficult to buy.
Other options include multidimensional portal, sucking moon out of this reality, or NDF effect, which converts moon into some form of energy that has no effect on surroundings. Neither of these can reasonably be done by DET.
Oh, and entire moon has to be gone from Earth's orbit, otherwise Saiyajin see Moon-Turn to Ape still applies.
Additional option, all of DBZ is the hallucination of Master Roshi, after taking some bad acid.

[JodoForce]

You hit moon with a lot of energy.
Moon detonates.
If Moon detonates slow, all of moon falls on earth.

Huh? Why? At most half of the moon will fall out of orbit towards earth, the other half would be pushed out of orbit.

Only way to counter is to have giant invisible hand push either moon, or big honking fragments of moon away from planet at greater than escape velocity.
Or, if giant invisible hand silly and inefficient, could push Earth away from moon fragments instead.
Since Moon observed to detonate omnidirectionally, and Piccolo did nothing after initial blast, Giant invisible hand theory difficult to buy.

Since you guys are always saying that the moon-blowing blast should have pushed Piccolo right down into the earth, can't the moon-blowing blast serve as the giant hand too? Also, from the perspective of someone standing on earth you can't say for sure whether the explosion is omnidirection in the towards earth / away from earth direction. For all we know all the pieces could have been flying away from earth. (If the event is observed from orbit I stand corrected; I have never seen the episode in question)

Oh, and entire moon has to be gone from Earth's orbit, otherwise Saiyajin see Moon-Turn to Ape still applies.

How do you know that?

Additional option, all of DBZ is the hallucination of Master Roshi, after taking some bad acid.

The truth probably is that DBZverse physics is inconsistent with real world physics and the physics in different parts of the story are inconsistent with each other too--and the writer never intended it to be consistent with real world physics. He concentrated on the show of power and had little interest in getting the consequences of all that power depicted correctly, except upon the primary target that the attack is directed at.

If the writer had to make DBZ consistent and explain it to all the tech-heads, he would probably revise the story to have the earth destroyed by the moon blast, only to be revived by the Dragon Balls, have characters flying away from each other at warp speed every time they attack each other, etc. rather than introduce some technobabble NDF effect and lower the characters' actual power by several orders of magnitude. Nothing in the show ever implied that the characters carry out their destruction through chain reactions, except for the nitpicking of people with physics knowledge several times that of the author

[Lord of the Farce]

If I recall correctly (it's been at least two years since I last watched any DBZ episodes, and I have no interest in ever doing so again), didn't planets in the DBZverse have some sort of special guardian/life-force?

[Yogi]

Yeah. That would be Kami, "Guru", and Dende.

[consequences]

When I said moon detonates slow, I meant that the speed of detonation was not sufficient to overcome the Gravitational attraction of earth.
The Saiyajin sees full moon, turns Ape rule makes no mention of size or shape of the moon in question. Unless the writer comes out and says "it has to be at least 200 km in diameter and roughly spherical in shape", we have to presume that any moon orbitting the planet in question could potentially do it.
A moon killing blast via DET should push Piccolo through the Earth, one more reason I don't believe DET is the mechanism, but even that ignoring of the laws of physics pales enormously compared to the giant invisible hand. The too of them together without noticeable bracing on Piccolo's part just makes me sadly shake my head.

Doing things gravitationally causes its own bad shit to occur to the planet around it, and technically should take more energy than DET.


And no one has threatened to crucify me over the 1kps/s calc I made for Goku during his trip to Namek?

[JodoForce]

When I said moon detonates slow, I meant that the speed of detonation was not sufficient to overcome the Gravitational attraction of earth.

The moon was orbiting the earth in the first place--why would a detonation cause all of it to fall down to earth?? My point is, even in the case of an omnidirectional explosion, half of it would fall down to earth and half of it would go to a higher orbit or escape from earth entirely because of the blast.

The Saiyajin sees full moon, turns Ape rule makes no mention of size or shape of the moon in question. Unless the writer comes out and says "it has to be at least 200 km in diameter and roughly spherical in shape", we have to presume that any moon orbitting the planet in question could potentially do it.

I think something like that can be assumed by default.

The too of them together without noticeable bracing on Piccolo's part just makes me sadly shake my head.

Which just proves my point, the writer never intended for the anime to be consistent with real world physics and probably doesn't know enough about it to make it so even if he wanted to.

IF as you say the mechanism is a chain reaction (something I bet never crossed the writer's mind ), note that the planet-busting blasts are not shown to be any different from blasts attacking other characters, blowing up cars, etc. so it would seem that the same chain reaction applies to all material.

To the DBZ gurus: were there ever any shielded objects in DBZ?

[JodoForce]

And no one has threatened to crucify me over the 1kps/s calc I made for Goku during his trip to Namek?

That may be relevant to the vs Darth Vader + Palpatine fight (though I should think 1kps is still faster than anything they've ever achieved) but I don't think it has anything to do with fightin the Death Star.

[consequences]

The only artificially created shield we have seen is the barrier that Android 17 created to stop Piccolo's big attack. Nowhere else in the entire run of DBZ is the concept even touched upon.

And Goku's acceleration has great relevance in a space fight, considering that his total acceleration at one point in the series was no more than 100 Gs. This figure also brings into question the quarter light speed figure often claimed for Raditz dodging, or to be more accurate, completely demolishes it.

[JodoForce]

The only artificially created shield we have seen is the barrier that Android 17 created to stop Piccolo's big attack. Nowhere else in the entire run of DBZ is the concept even touched upon.

Pity that a17 wasn't killed by a bomb or something, otherwise we could use that to calculate how much energy its shield could absorb.

And Goku's acceleration has great relevance in a space fight, considering that his total acceleration at one point in the series was no more than 100 Gs. This figure also brings into question the quarter light speed figure often claimed for Raditz dodging, or to be more accurate, completely demolishes it.

Don't see how--your figure, even if correct, is only for sustained flight. It has nothing to do with dodging. And seeing as DBZverse apparently has no continuity, there is no problem with dodging at lightspeed with immense Gs while pulling only 100Gs while hauling ass from one planet to the next I wouldn't be surprised if the writer can't differentiate between top speed and acceleration

Besides, did the anime say Goku was going at full steam? Did he have any reason to go at full steam?

[JodoForce]

I say it has little relevance because Goku can dodge the DS's turbolasers and the superlaser well enough at 100Gs.

[consequences]

100 Gs would also be the maximum possible vector change he could induce any given second, I'd say it has great relevance. Especially given that a proton torpedo can do 90000 Gs to track his ass. And the TF battleship was able to pick off R2s at range on the Naboo cruiser, Goku's just a bit bigger, and has no known ECM systems protecting his ass.

This was at the moment when 100 Gs worth of gravity room was nearly killing him, and he was barely able to move against it, I'd say survival is a good reason to go at full steam, wouldn't you?

And you are correct, this says nothing about top speed at all, which would have to be pretty high to account for the crossing of Snake Way.

[JodoForce]

100 Gs would also be the maximum possible vector change he could induce any given second, I'd say it has great relevance. Especially given that a proton torpedo can do 90000 Gs to track his ass. And the TF battleship was able to pick off R2s at range on the Naboo cruiser, Goku's just a bit bigger, and has no known ECM systems protecting his ass.

Perhaps, but what's to say that the proton torpedoes would hurt him? Them being able to withstand planet destroying blasts seems to indicate the opposite.

This was at the moment when 100 Gs worth of gravity room was nearly killing him, and he was barely able to move against it, I'd say survival is a good reason to go at full steam, wouldn't you?

Oh, then I'm misinterpreting the situation, I thought this was crossing from planet to planet.

And as you describe it, this scene would have no relevance to Goku's acceleration in the Buu saga, since he has obviously gone way up in power since then--Vegeta constantly trained in a 500G room in the Buu saga, moving normally, and he is Goku's inferior.

[consequences]

Granted, this is an early series baseline.
And given how they get smacked around by attacks that do negligible damage to surroundings, a continuous Concussion missile/Proton torpedo bombardment will keep the target from maneuvering effectively, which gives you time to bring the superlaser to bear.

[JodoForce]

And given how they get smacked around by attacks that do negligible damage to surroundings, a continuous Concussion missile/Proton torpedo bombardment will keep the target from maneuvering effectively, which gives you time to bring the superlaser to bear.

Smacked around? I suppose so, when they are losing. When they are not threatened by their opponent I don't see them being 'smacked around'. I just don't see how having bombs exploding around you will make you lose your propulsive ability (does that sound funny or what? )