Robert Brown's site

Post by **RogueIce** » 2003-05-23 08:25pm

What the Hell ever happened to him? He just up and quit...

I'm looking at his old Forum now. It says he got invaded by trolls and such. Hell, SD.Net seems to get it worse!

But anyway, what's with the personal grudematch between him and LFL? That's my real question. Was it true? Was he paranoid? Anyone know?

Oh, by the way, he didn't seem to have a very high opinion of this board:

Robert Brown wrote:as predicted
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
the "powers that be" are on the move
a brand new board, for people who are prepared to "tow the line"

www.stardestroyer.net/phpBB2

Scroll down a bit. You'll see it...

Ah well...

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-05-23 08:31pm

I remember him basically throwing a fit and taking down his site when AOTC ICS came out. Basically he was pissed that Saxton wrote it for some reason. I heard he later brought the site back up.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-05-23 08:35pm

Robert Brown basically became dissatisfied with Star Wars by the time AOTC was released, and has since given up on being a fan of it entirely. His website is dead for all practical purposes.

He was also an extreme Canon and Original Trilogy purist, possessing an extreme distaste for the EU and Prequels and the information presented within them.

He used to speak friendly of Mike, Dr. Saxton, and Young, but has been rather curt and venomous towards them since AOTC.

Post by **RogueIce** » 2003-05-23 08:38pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:He used to speak friendly of Mike, Dr. Saxton, and Young, but has been rather curt and venomous towards them since AOTC.

Hm... I woulda thought Saxton doing an ICS would be a good thing for him. Finally listening to the fans or whatnot. *shrug*

Anyway, if he was such a Canon/OT Purist, I could see him pissed at Saxton over AOTC ICS (sell-out or whatever), but why Mike and Brian Young? What'd they ever do?

EDIT: And why would he assume we're just here to "tow the line" about SW on SD.Net?

seanrobertson · Post by **seanrobertson** » 2003-05-23 08:42pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Robert Brown basically became dissatisfied with Star Wars by the time AOTC was released, and has since given up on being a fan of it entirely. His website is dead for all practical purposes.

He was also an extreme Canon and Original Trilogy purist, possessing an extreme distaste for the EU and Prequels and the information presented within them.

He used to speak friendly of Mike, Dr. Saxton, and Young, but has been rather curt and venomous towards them since AOTC.

Well, not of Brian. I talked to Robert a number of times since AOTC was released and he didn't indicate anger toward Brian. He, of course, might've played that down since he knew I was first and foremost Brian's friend, but...*shrugs*.

I haven't talked to Michael lately, or Curtis directly, so I don't know if Bob is made at them about something. Bob is a really a great guy, but he might be a bit...temperamental

Just like most of us. So who knows.

I hope he gets his head screwed on tight sooner rather than later, and continues his excellent analyses of SW ships!

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-05-23 08:44pm

I'm more interested in the "Saxtonites" bit that was posted in the linked thread. Why is it that He and the people there don't like him?

seanrobertson · Post by **seanrobertson** » 2003-05-23 08:44pm

RogueIce wrote: EDIT: And why would he assume we're just here to "tow the line" about SW on SD.Net?

Rogue, all I can say is that, from what I know of Robert, he's not big on vs. debates. Neither is Curtis, for that matter.

But I wouldn't read too much into what he said. There's no way to know if he's geniunely pissed with a handful of us (which I doubt), or he's just venting a little given some personal troubles like a break-up with a girlfriend or the like.

Post by **RogueIce** » 2003-05-23 08:49pm

seanrobertson wrote:
RogueIce wrote: EDIT: And why would he assume we're just here to "tow the line" about SW on SD.Net?
Rogue, all I can say is that, from what I know of Robert, he's not big on vs. debates. Neither is Curtis, for that matter.

But I wouldn't read too much into what he said. There's no way to know if he's geniunely pissed with a handful of us (which I doubt), or he's just venting a little given some personal troubles like a break-up with a girlfriend or the like.

This occured, and was posted, way back in August 02, according to the dates I saw.

So he's had ample time to get over a breakup or something like that.

seanrobertson · Post by **seanrobertson** » 2003-05-23 08:49pm

Ender wrote:I'm more interested in the "Saxtonites" bit that was posted in the linked thread. Why is it that He and the people there don't like him?

Hmmm.

Yes, I saw this:

And I hope we don't get too many Saxtonites, I really don't like arguing with them. They're so...so thickheaded and leminglike.

I don't know what that means.

Frankly, I'm deciding that I do not care. I have no clue who the author of those words is. It could be as simple a matter as said author believing that Robert and Curtis were somehow in "competition" or somesuch, putting down Curtis simply to win brownie points with Robert.

Who knows.

seanrobertson · Post by **seanrobertson** » 2003-05-23 08:50pm

RogueIce wrote:
seanrobertson wrote:
RogueIce wrote: EDIT: And why would he assume we're just here to "tow the line" about SW on SD.Net?
Rogue, all I can say is that, from what I know of Robert, he's not big on vs. debates. Neither is Curtis, for that matter.

But I wouldn't read too much into what he said. There's no way to know if he's geniunely pissed with a handful of us (which I doubt), or he's just venting a little given some personal troubles like a break-up with a girlfriend or the like.
This occured, and was posted, way back in August 02, according to the dates I saw.

So he's had ample time to get over a breakup or something like that.

*Scratches head* I honestly have no clue, then, bro. I am flat stumped!

Post by **RogueIce** » 2003-05-23 08:55pm

seanrobertson wrote:*Scratches head* I honestly have no clue, then, bro. I am flat stumped!

Me neither!

Which is why I'm putting it before the Forum as a whole. I figure someone on here might've been around and known Brown. Hell, for all I know, Wong even knew him, and he might've had e-mail contact (before he stopped making his e-mail public) with him, since I sorta see Wong as an "old timer" in this area (plus he was a contributer to some of Saxton's sites, and Young seemed to know him well enough to put the TLC on here. So maybe he knew Brown as well). Or some of the other's might've (Didja know Dalton has a link on SWTC? Really! I'm amazed *grin*). So, I'm just hoping one of our many denizens knows the answer.

EDIT: More of what I find at his old board (caution, HUGE message!)

Robert Brown wrote:then it's settled ... FORUM SITE WILL CLOSE--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I note you still wont tell me clearly where that message is or where you want it moved to. I am not going to spend an hour or two searching for it.

I did not treat you as my pet - and I STRONGLY resent the implication. Almost as much as I resent being told how to run my own site and board

I put no words in your mouth - it was a generic response to a growing trend of people ordering me about.

and If you think I am here to recieve praise then you have paid no attention whatsoever.

and YES, *gosh*, i am the only mod - the site is MINE - or dont you people get that? Browsing a site does not confer ownership or control OF it. Browbeating the person who pays for it is not a successful way of interacting with it.

My choice to use a board as an adjunct to the site itself was ONLY ever intended to be a replacement for my own PRIVATE email link (to cut down on my exposure to viruses and flames), it was turned into this monster by other people who couldnt comprehend that it was NOT originally intended to be a discussion site.

To try and stem the flow, I spent a year deleting each post as soon as I'd read it - and that STILL didnt stop people using it as a drop-box to each other.

eventually i just caved in - and let it grow, simply by leaving it alone and ignoring it. NOT FOR MY BENEFIT nor my kudos ... I just couldnt be bothered wasting hours each day tracking it.

Then gradually the rot set in - people (often anonymous) started appointing themselves as 'sub mods' apparently and deciding that they could answer PRIVATE messages addressed directly to me, and then they started setting user policy!!!

It was only a short jump from there to deciding that THEY owned the thing, and that I was simply an impediment, a too-slow-to-respond background person who selfishly 'hogged' the only password ...

___________________________

however, amongst all the dross, I note the observation that:

"I don't think that two major english tech forums could live and prosper at the same time"

well, I never considered this a 'major' forum, it was never more than a feedback mechanism gone mad

However, the solution is simple enough ...

*** I will close down this board ***

I will shortly change the banner and the link from my website informing people of the impending closure. After a suitable period, of my own choosing, I will delete every forum area, which means there will be nowhere to post to (which is the only mechanism I can find to 'switch it off').

I do not know if it is possible to migrate the few surviving messages to the new board, wherever and whenever it is made - but I am willing to delay switch-off whilst the issue is examined by whoever feels moved to do so.

I am also willing to put a link to the new board on my website - for as slong as it survives ... which is probably not long. I can not justify the expense of maintaining it. I put it back up for one reason only - to support the publication of a book by a friend.

As for a new board - I am sure that the expert who runs stardestroyer.net, or any one of a dozen other self-appointed SW luminaries would be more than willing to moderate - which of course means telling you all what to think, and when.

Yellowtext: Wow. He really has something against us; twice now he mentioned this board in a negative light.

At any rate, this gives some insight on the shutting down of the board, but still three questions remain: why did he get so disillusioned in the first place? What's with all that talk of "cheers at 'The Ranch'" when his site blacked out for a time, and this "grudge" between him and LFL (not just his, according to him, LFL people actively opposed him)? And why the grudge against Saxton and Wong?

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-05-23 09:40pm

I'm not going to touch on his comments about us or LFL or Saxton, but I can sympathize with the board situation he had. I have been present for something similar, and watching a community rip apart like that is not fun. I used to post at the forum of www.pvponline.com If you look, there is no longer any forum. People began giving Scott alot of shit, then there was a cross board incident where Largo of Megatokyo asked Scott (they are friends IRL) to ban a poster for posting about Largos borderline activities at the MT board. Following all that runnign the board was taken up by board members, but a few months ago there was a big thing where they tried to start a new forum/site, broke a few copyright violation laws, and alot of shit. Give the hell that was, if his was anything similar I can't blame Brown for taking down the boards.

Lord Sander · Post by **Lord Sander** » 2003-05-23 09:52pm

RogueIce wrote:(Didja know Dalton has a link on SWTC? Really! I'm amazed *grin*).

Who doesn't?

RogueIce wrote:What's with all that talk of "cheers at 'The Ranch'" when his site blacked out for a time, and this "grudge" between him and LFL (not just his, according to him, LFL people actively opposed him)?

I always found this one rather strange. I can't imagine the people at LFL caring enough about a website to cheer its going offline. They don't seem to have anything against websites of the same type by other people. The fact that they hired Saxton seems more an indication that they're open to these websites than anything else, to me.
But maybe there's a whole lot going on behind the scenes?

Post by **RogueIce** » 2003-05-23 10:01pm

Lord Sander wrote:Who doesn't?

Me...

Lord Sander wrote:I always found this one rather strange. I can't imagine the people at LFL caring enough about a website to cheer its going offline. They don't seem to have anything against websites of the same type by other people. The fact that they hired Saxton seems more an indication that they're open to these websites than anything else, to me.
But maybe there's a whole lot going on behind the scenes?

Maybe so... Anyone here know? That's my point in asking; I'm curious as Hell about it.

But from my standpoint, I never thought LFL cared either. Hell, they even went out and made a thing for people to host pages at StarWars.com!

Now, whether any of those sites are as critical of LFL and GL as Brown, I don't know. Just another angle to this I guess: what kind of restrictions do the SW.com sites live under? Can they be critical, and if so, how critical of LFL/GL? Or are critical sites quietly eliminated in some kind of police state? Or does SW.com not care beyong keeping porn and the standard Free Site No-Nos away?

So many questions...

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2003-05-23 10:32pm

Brown was highly critical of the EU and vocal about it - earning him no points with LFL. Something apparently happened between Brown and LFL, but what I do not know.

Saxton's "include as much as possible" viewpoint probably was more palatable to LFL.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-05-23 11:01pm

It's something of a mystery why he became resentful. Even before this board was really up and running, he had already passed judgement on it. Perhaps his hatred of all things related to the EU simply spilled over to Curtis Saxton, who is now an EU author, albeit one whose work so far deals exclusively with films rather than EU events. Perhaps there's something else going on, which we don't know about.

Another possible motivation is that both Curtis and I strongly prefer a rather scientific approach, and are not shy about saying so. He can be rather hostile toward science on occasion; I still remember the time I inadvertently incited a flamewar by pointing out that the application of force does not necessarily require an expenditure of energy (he eventually became quite furious at me over the fact that I simply wouldn't budge on this simple application of elementary physics, and claimed that I was being "dogmatic").

Post by **RogueIce** » 2003-05-23 11:11pm

Darth Wong wrote:It's something of a mystery why he became resentful. Even before this board was really up and running, he had already passed judgement on it. Perhaps his hatred of all things related to the EU simply spilled over to Curtis Saxton, who is now an EU author, albeit one whose work so far deals exclusively with films rather than EU events. Perhaps there's something else going on, which we don't know about.

Another possible motivation is that both Curtis and I strongly prefer a rather scientific approach, and are not shy about saying so. He can be rather hostile toward science on occasion; I still remember the time I inadvertently incited a flamewar by pointing out that the application of force does not necessarily require an expenditure of energy (he eventually became quite furious at me over the fact that I simply wouldn't budge on this simple application of elementary physics, and claimed that I was being "dogmatic").

Ah. Well, that would probably explain the thing against the BBS then. If he already had a problem with you and "science" types, then a board who's motto starts out with "Get your fill of sci-fi, science..." would not endear it to him. Though the whole "toe the line" comment is a bit of mystery. Though maybe that's just because you'll include EU, which is probably what he meant by that. Since I've never seen you or the mods force us into accepting things a certain way. All anyone needed to do was back it up with some kind of logical reasoning and evidence.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2003-05-23 11:38pm

There is a lot of behind the scenes stuff that Rob hints about. Let's just say that he has his version of Star Wars, which conflicts with Lucasfilm's version.

He doesn't want certain things officially explained or "canonized"; he prefers the time in 1995 where fans were allowed to speculate and guess about the world of Star Wars, its ships, and its weapons.

Note that the latest Visual Dictionaries, for instance, seek to fully map out Jedi lightsaber techniques. Something very close to Robert's heart, being a kendo practitioner. He has a huge section on his website about lightsaber techniques..which is overridden by the Visual Dictionary.

Get it now?

Robert was also a Jedi extra in AOTC. His experience was very negative. Anyone see the showoff Jedis in the background at the Battle of Geonosis?

Again, Robert takes the swordplay arts very seriously. When others do not, and, fairly or unfairly, are featured over more serious practitioners...

I've probably said too much already. But there it is.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-05-23 11:57pm

phongn wrote:Brown was highly critical of the EU and vocal about it - earning him no points with LFL. Something apparently happened between Brown and LFL, but what I do not know.

I don't blame them. From what I've read Brown sounds like an over-presumptious fan who thinks he knows Star Wars better than LFL and Lucas--and that offends me.

phongn wrote:Saxton's "include as much as possible" viewpoint probably was more palatable to LFL.

Given that it is their canon policy and their perogative, I don't blame them--Star Wars is Lucas and LFL's--regardless of how much Brown passes judgement on anything other than his pet Star Wars movies, ESB, and ANH.

Lord Poe wrote:He doesn't want certain things officially explained or "canonized"; he prefers the time in 1995 where fans were allowed to speculate and guess about the world of Star Wars, its ships, and its weapons.

Note that the latest Visual Dictionaries, for instance, seek to fully map out Jedi lightsaber techniques. Something very close to Robert's heart, being a kendo practitioner. He has a huge section on his website about lightsaber techniques..which is overridden by the Visual Dictionary.

Get it now?

.....

Again, Robert takes the swordplay arts very seriously. When others do not, and, fairly or unfairly, are featured over more serious practitioners...

I've probably said too much already. But there it is.

Seems to me, pardon my ignorance, that he can take Star Wars lightly or live with the fact it is LFL's and Lucas' and his commentary is fanfiction, regardless.

Star Wars is meant to be enjoyed and taken lightly--this seems close to Mike's references to investing too much of one's personal feelings is something (not at all to associate Robert Brown with a pitiful miscreant like Darkstar; just the idea struck me as the same vein).

My two cents and likely ignorant opinion. He sounds like a true fan and a good guy--but things like this are only meant to be taken so seriously. And like I said--it belongs to LFL and Lucas, not to Brown.

Darth Wong wrote:*snip*

For someone who seems to spout off on following incorrect analyses and such--you think he'd have some respect for the only objective method. He seems at times to almost treat Star Wars like a personal toy that was somehow corrupted, the key to which only he holds which he also seems to phrase as if that should be self-evident to everyone else.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-05-24 01:47am

He's just a canon purist zealot who got too attached to his own personal vision of what SW was and became extremely offended when Lucas broke away from that- insulting the man for altering his vision to make it more 'saleable'. His page is fun to look at if you ignore the rapidly escalating invective against all things prequel and EU, combined with a sickening form of false 'I was there' nostalgia regarding what things were like when the first movies were made.

A really amusing thing is that he didn't analyze AOTC. Probably because it proved so much of his invenctive that he hurled after TPM wrong (just read the page).

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-05-24 01:05pm

"Massive organs of commerce" ~ twenty two years we have waited to see just what lay behind that fascinating line from the Journal ~ it hinted at a grander vision, a larger-scaled epic than just the adventures of a handful of heroes. Sadly, George Lucas has failed to convincingly flesh out the history of his universe. An epic myth for the late twentieth and early twenty-first centuries has been seriously dented, all for want of a little planning and a few brief words.

Since TPM ends with the Trade Federation almost certainly losing its trade franchise (newly elected Supreme Chancellor Palpatine, from Naboo, could hardly do otherwise) we shall almost certainly never hear of them again. The mystery of the Trade Federation, its curious status and the extent of its power, will never be resolved in canon lore. We shall once again be left to the ravages of lazy, money-hungry apocryphal franchise writers for highly speculative details.

What sweet irony.

Whatever happened to the good old days when neither Ralph McQuarrie and Joe Johnston wouldn't have stood for such blatant mistakes? (Is this why neither man was hired for TPM? because they'd dare to talk back to George Lucas and correct his many mistakes?)

Like designing a Falcon which couldn't contain the set?

Post by **RogueIce** » 2003-05-24 03:42pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:<snipity snip snip>

What page was this? I must've missed it.

Ah well. I can see some of that from his other pages (what you all posted above).

Still, too bad he didn't finish his "Star Wars as Greek Tragedy" essay. Assuming he could keep out the attitude, and leave it strictly analytic and on topic, it might've been interesting. But ah well.

Oh, and by the way, he plans on making his own "what SW could've been" after EP3 comes out in 2005. Saw it last night, and that general attitude kinda confirms for me what you all said above.

Such a shame, too. I remember looking at it way long ago, and it was certainly an interesting page. But oh well, such is life...

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2003-05-30 04:37pm

He was also an extreme Canon and Original Trilogy purist, possessing an extreme distaste for the EU and Prequels and the information presented within them.

For that, he has my respect. ; )

Too bad though, his site rocked! His incredulity when it came to brain bugs was especially refreshing in the "me too" fanwank world of StarWars.

I would think the fact that the prequels and SE's ran roughshod over the EU would be a major positive point in his mind though.

Btw: The way some of you guys talk, he's the Holden Caufield of Star Wars fandom.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-05-30 04:45pm

Kurgan wrote:
He was also an extreme Canon and Original Trilogy purist, possessing an extreme distaste for the EU and Prequels and the information presented within them.
For that, he has my respect. ; ).

Yes, all ye who know SW better than GL.

Nothing in my opinion would more fit the term fanboy than that shit.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2003-05-30 05:00pm

Yes, all ye who know SW better than GL.

Last time I checked, George didn't write the EU.

Rather, it's the fanboys who are mad that GL ignores the EU in the prequels, since obviously they know better than he.

So his "canon purity" wanking is actually a reaction against their's!

Granted, there's people (like me) who can enjoy Star Wars for what it is, but frankly there's plenty of the EU I'd rather forget (and I'm glad GL didn't follow it all with the new films).