Forced organ donations

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-05-23 10:41pm

If they're going to execute murderers, why use firing squad, electric chairs, or lethal injection? Wouldn't it make more sense to put them under with a general anesthetic, harvest their organs, and then let them die?

Wouldn't that be poetic justice, to force a convicted murderer to give the gift of life?

Montcalm · Post by **Montcalm** » 2003-05-23 10:44pm

Thats a great idea,but there will be many bleeding hearts assholes who`ll say its inhumane.

Post by **RogueIce** » 2003-05-23 10:45pm

Darth Wong wrote:If they're going to execute murderers, why use firing squad, electric chairs, or lethal injection? Wouldn't it make more sense to put them under with a general anesthetic, harvest their organs, and then let them die?

Wouldn't that be poetic justice, to force a convicted murderer to give the gift of life?

That sounds good.

And I wonder how Anti-Death-Penalty people can really protest that? They're gonna die anyway (since the alternative SHOULD be life in prison), why not make sure they do some good on the way out?

Crayz9000 · Post by **Crayz9000** » 2003-05-23 10:46pm

Yep, I'm tired... I saw the title and thought of pipe organs.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-05-23 10:46pm

fucking idiots have this concept of the sanctity of the human body. I say, FUCK YOU, cut that motherfucker open!

but we cant have this become something you can SELL to med comps, otherwise poor people will be selling kidneys for some money and end up sick and thats bad, so it should only be done with dead people, criminals work for a beginning, but i'd go so far as to say for all deceased healthy people.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-05-23 10:47pm

I would go a step further than that and allow willing individuals to sell their organs.

Post by **RogueIce** » 2003-05-23 10:49pm

Durran Korr wrote:I would go a step further than that and allow willing individuals to sell their organs.

Hm...

"Need cash? Got an extra kidney? Then call 1-800-4-DONATE now!"

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-05-23 10:51pm

Durran thats a BAD idea. Seriously, college kids selling their organs for money to pay off loans is not a good idea. Honestly, think.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-05-23 10:54pm

RogueIce wrote:
Durran Korr wrote:I would go a step further than that and allow willing individuals to sell their organs.
Hm...

"Need cash? Got an extra kidney? Then call 1-800-4-DONATE now!"

Hell yes. People constantly bitch about there aren't enough organ donations, nevermind the fact that the maximum price you can receive for all of your organs is zero dollars. People would definitely be willing to donate more if they could actually reap some benefit from it (or in the case of dead organ donors, produce some extra cash for their families).

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-05-23 10:55pm

kojikun wrote:Durran thats a BAD idea. Seriously, college kids selling their organs for money to pay off loans is not a good idea. Honestly, think.

People dying while waiting in line for organs is morally superior to college kids voluntarily selling certain organs to pay bills they otherwise wouldn't be able to pay?

aerius · Post by **aerius** » 2003-05-23 10:56pm

I've always held the belief that some (many?) people are so stupid that they should be euthanized by having their organs harvested. As such I have no problems at all with harvesting organs from criminals on death row. Furthermore I'd say that any unrehabilitable criminal or serial offender such as a jackass with multiple DIU's should also be subject to organ harvesting. We'll start them off with a kidney or a lung and keep taking organs each time they re-offend until they're dead, at which point we harvest the remainder of their organs.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-05-23 10:56pm

Yes. Might as well get some use out of that waste of flesh.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-05-23 10:58pm

Durran Korr wrote:People dying while waiting in line for organs is morally superior to college kids voluntarily selling certain organs to pay bills they otherwise wouldn't be able to pay?

Monetary incentive for being on an [nonvital] organ donor list is one thing, but a free market for organ donation is a very bad idea, because the resulting blackmarket will end up killing more people then the situation saves. Kids donating things they THINK they dont need ("oh i dont need my liver, it just prevents me for drinking and the guy said i'd be fine").

I'd be very careful about beginning a free market for organs.

Montcalm · Post by **Montcalm** » 2003-05-23 11:01pm

Why do i get the Monty Python`s meaning of life image where the guy is being cut open by the medics.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-05-23 11:06pm

Monetary incentive for being on an [nonvital] organ donor list is one thing, but a free market for organ donation is a very bad idea, because the resulting blackmarket will end up killing more people then the situation saves. Kids donating things they THINK they dont need ("oh i dont need my liver, it just prevents me for drinking and the guy said i'd be fine").

That's the point of establishing a free market for organs. Free markets tend to eliminate, or at least minimize black markets. A free market for organs will produce legitimate facilities for organ exchange and individuals fully qualified to carry out the tasks in question, and most individuals seeking to donate organs will prefer to do business with these firms rather than shady black-market dealers.

And no sympathy for someone who who would be stupid enough to donate his liver for cash from me. You are responsible for the ramifications of your idiotic actions.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-05-23 11:13pm

yeah but theres no blackmarket NOW, atleast not that any respectable doctor uses (afaik), but if doctors were able to BUY organs theres an issue because they dont necessarily know that the seller is legit or that the organ was donated voluntarilly or such.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-05-23 11:17pm

Darth Wong wrote:If they're going to execute murderers, why use firing squad, electric chairs, or lethal injection? Wouldn't it make more sense to put them under with a general anesthetic, harvest their organs, and then let them die?

Wouldn't that be poetic justice, to force a convicted murderer to give the gift of life?

The PRC does that, though I believe they simply shoot them in the back of the head.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-05-23 11:18pm

Well, that won't really be an issue. If people were allowed to sell their organs, the amount of individuals selling their organs upon death would increase exponentially, which would likely more than meet the demand for vital organs and eliminate the need for black market trade of them.

Such a market would likely also involve massive amounts of liability, which would prevent misbehavior to a reasonable degree. As in any market there would be problems, but certainly it is superior to the alternatives.

I should add that the crux of my argument is "they're your damn organs, and you ought to be able to do whatever the hell you want with them, even at your own expense."

Post by **RogueIce** » 2003-05-23 11:19pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:The PRC does that, though I believe they simply shoot them in the back of the head.

Probably cheaper that way. A cost of a bullet and a bit of gunpowder versus whatever chemical it takes to do that, plus the sterilized needle (since you're gonna use the organs, no sense having any kind of infections in there). What's the cost ratio between the two?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-05-23 11:22pm

It would be best to harvest the organs almost immediately upon death (or before). The use of a firearm would create a mess and is not something you'd do in an operating room. It makes more sense to anesthetize the criminal and then remove the organs cleanly and properly.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-05-23 11:26pm

Durran Korr wrote:That's the point of establishing a free market for organs. Free markets tend to eliminate, or at least minimize black markets.

There is no organ black market right now. And not all free markets are detrimental to black markets. The free market for guns, for example, does not eliminate the black market for guns.

A free market for organs will produce legitimate facilities for organ exchange and individuals fully qualified to carry out the tasks in question, and most individuals seeking to donate organs will prefer to do business with these firms rather than shady black-market dealers.

And will those firms start accepting organs from shady operators if the profit margin is there? Whenever there's an incentive to do the wrong thing, the wrong thing has a funny way of happening.

And no sympathy for someone who who would be stupid enough to donate his liver for cash from me. You are responsible for the ramifications of your idiotic actions.

Even when I was in school, I never would have considered donating ANY organ for money, never mind something essential like the liver. I may have two kidneys but I'm not about to give one of them up.

Murderers, on the other hand, are fair game.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-05-23 11:26pm

RogueIce wrote:
Probably cheaper that way. A cost of a bullet and a bit of gunpowder versus whatever chemical it takes to do that, plus the sterilized needle (since you're gonna use the organs, no sense having any kind of infections in there). What's the cost ratio between the two?

The bullet would cost a couple cents, a drug would run at least into the double-digit dollars if not triple and you'd needed well trained personal to kill without an OD that might damage the organs. As for the mess, I'm not sure how they great around that, maybe with very low powered ammo and a bunch of towels.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-05-23 11:26pm

For fear of creating a false dilemma, I should also add that a completely free market is not the only solution; simply allowing dying individuals to choose to sell their organs rather than college kids and poor people would still produce massive amounts of organs for those who need them.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-05-23 11:28pm

Durran Korr wrote:For fear of creating a false dilemma, I should also add that a completely free market is not the only solution; simply allowing dying individuals to choose to sell their organs rather than college kids and poor people would still produce massive amounts of organs for those who need them.

As long as the hospital doesn't get a percentage of the selling price. Otherwise, they will have an incentive to "not work that hard" to save the person.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-05-23 11:38pm

There is no organ black market right now. And not all free markets are detrimental to black markets. The free market for guns, for example, does not eliminate the black market for guns.

What is this free market for guns you speak of? Say what you will about gun control in America, but the gun trade is considerably regulated.

And will those firms start accepting organs from shady operators if the profit margin is there? Whenever there's an incentive to do the wrong thing, the wrong thing has a funny way of happening.

Perhaps. I never said it wouldn't have problems like all other industries, I just said it would be preferable to what we have now.

Even when I was in school, I never would have considered donating ANY organ for money, never mind something essential like the liver. I may have two kidneys but I'm not about to give one of them up.

Neither would I, but I certainly wouldn't tell someone else that he couldn't choose that option.

As long as the hospital doesn't get a percentage of the selling price. Otherwise, they will have an incentive to "not work that hard" to save the person.

Easy, individuals can just contract with firms outside the hospital in which they are being treated to remove their organs. I certainly would stay away from a hospital that had an incentive to kill me.

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