In Defense of the Federation

[Sea Skimmer]

Even if you had said decoy fleet around Earth and the Empire arrived, once the Sun explodes they should still have a few minutes to jump out of range.

[Patrick Ogaard]

Even if we assume this is feasible, you would destroy billions of your own people out of spite? Doesn't this plan seem, well, INSANE to you?

Well, they are communist

Communists would have a bloated and crude, but nonetheless effective, military. And they would have the galaxy's biggest heavy lift shuttlecraft, the galaxy's biggest spoons, the most advanced vacuum tube radios, and a five year plan emphasizing galactic leadership in the gross overproduction of heavy machine tools.

The Federation isn't communist, it just has a stupidly conceived and impractical economy and society designed specifically to maintain a perfect beige flatline.

[Patrick Ogaard]

Even if you had said decoy fleet around Earth and the Empire arrived, once the Sun explodes they should still have a few minutes to jump out of range.

True, but it's still about the best plan the Federation is likely to come up with. The real trick, then, would be to elaborate the plan a bit by making Mercury look important without making it look important. A few bogus military installations carefully but clumsily hidden there, along with a few carefully but clumsily hidden protective ships positioned near Mercury and fitted with cheap old commercially available cloaking devices should do the trick.

Once the Imperial fleet commander sends a few ships to check the matter out, the entire Earth-orbit fleet, or rather what's left of it, heads to Mercury to "protect" it, drawing the remaining Imperials to Mercury. Reaction time should then be sufficiently short to trap the majority of the Imperial fleet.

[Sir Sirius]

Even if we assume this is feasible, you would destroy billions of your own people out of spite? Doesn't this plan seem, well, INSANE to you?

Yes, that was kinda the point. Should have used a smiley.

As for the feasability... I doubt it, it took Soran dacades to develope that device and it needs some rare Treknobable material to work. Though UFP has more resources at it's disposal then Soran and finding that Treknobable material shouldn't be impossible, but coming up with enough to create thousands of those missiles might be hard.

[GeeYouEye]

I think it's rather simple.

1. Repudiate the Treaty of Algeron
2. Install Pegasus-type cloak/phase devices aboard all starships. Even if they can be seen by sensors, the weapons would pass right through them.
3. Track the probe droids to the gateway system and hide the ships in the Oort Cloud of that star.
4. When the invasion force arrives, the ships would warp in and drop phased shuttles, each carrying a large antimatter bomb.
5. The shuttles would position themselves strategically, three per ship; one in the engine area, one amidships, and one in the computer cores or bridge area, depending on where the most dense areas of the ship are.
6. The shuttles would dephase/decloak simultaneously, causing either complete destruction of the fleet, or at least enough structural damage to cripple the invading force.

And to think, it doesn't even take 5 years to do.

OTOH, other things could influence this battle. The Star Destroyers (what exactly was the invading force made up of again? I forgot) could go into hyperspace, in which case the shuttles would be programed to dephase/decloak if they detected any major accelerations. Maybe one or two shuttles wouldn't be quick enough but the third one would certainly get the engines.

[AdmiralKanos]

Hmmm, I see you were more determined to sign up than I thought ("you" presumably being "Order2Chaos"). While it is tempting to use tough measures to keep you out, it will be interesting to see if you can keep your word.

I think it's rather simple.

1. Repudiate the Treaty of Algeron
2. Install Pegasus-type cloak/phase devices aboard all starships. Even if they can be seen by sensors, the weapons would pass right through them.

Tractor/repulsor beams will still affect them, and there is a marginal interactivity even when phased (see "The Next Phase"); enough sheer mass or energy would have an effect on them. Besides, they have no offense in that state. It would be handy for tactical maneuver since it would help them conceal their movements, but their inability to do serious damage would still make it pointless. They need the ability to damage or destroy the enemy's ships.

3. Track the probe droids to the gateway system and hide the ships in the Oort Cloud of that star.
4. When the invasion force arrives, the ships would warp in and drop phased shuttles, each carrying a large antimatter bomb.
5. The shuttles would position themselves strategically, three per ship; one in the engine area, one amidships, and one in the computer cores or bridge area, depending on where the most dense areas of the ship are.

Clever idea, but since they can just push them away with repulsor beams, it won't work. There's also the "phasing rate" issue from "Pegasus"; can they move through those hulls?

6. The shuttles would dephase/decloak simultaneously, causing either complete destruction of the fleet, or at least enough structural damage to cripple the invading force.

And to think, it doesn't even take 5 years to do.

OTOH, other things could influence this battle. The Star Destroyers (what exactly was the invading force made up of again? I forgot) could go into hyperspace, in which case the shuttles would be programed to dephase/decloak if they detected any major accelerations. Maybe one or two shuttles wouldn't be quick enough but the third one would certainly get the engines.

That's assuming they are unmolested as they perform this maneuver, despite their huge sensor signal (the use of warp drive creates a large signal regardless of whether the ship is cloaked, because it distorts space/time).

[Striderteen]

I think it's rather simple.

1. Repudiate the Treaty of Algeron
2. Install Pegasus-type cloak/phase devices aboard all starships. Even if they can be seen by sensors, the weapons would pass right through them.
3. Track the probe droids to the gateway system and hide the ships in the Oort Cloud of that star.
4. When the invasion force arrives, the ships would warp in and drop phased shuttles, each carrying a large antimatter bomb.
5. The shuttles would position themselves strategically, three per ship; one in the engine area, one amidships, and one in the computer cores or bridge area, depending on where the most dense areas of the ship are.
6. The shuttles would dephase/decloak simultaneously, causing either complete destruction of the fleet, or at least enough structural damage to cripple the invading force.

And to think, it doesn't even take 5 years to do.

OTOH, other things could influence this battle. The Star Destroyers (what exactly was the invading force made up of again? I forgot) could go into hyperspace, in which case the shuttles would be programed to dephase/decloak if they detected any major accelerations. Maybe one or two shuttles wouldn't be quick enough but the third one would certainly get the engines.

As Mike has noted on his site, a phase-cloaked ship should still be affected by gas weapons...which the Empire has plenty of.

[GeeYouEye]

I think it's rather simple.

1. Repudiate the Treaty of Algeron
2. Install Pegasus-type cloak/phase devices aboard all starships. Even if they can be seen by sensors, the weapons would pass right through them.
3. Track the probe droids to the gateway system and hide the ships in the Oort Cloud of that star.
4. When the invasion force arrives, the ships would warp in and drop phased shuttles, each carrying a large antimatter bomb.
5. The shuttles would position themselves strategically, three per ship; one in the engine area, one amidships, and one in the computer cores or bridge area, depending on where the most dense areas of the ship are.
6. The shuttles would dephase/decloak simultaneously, causing either complete destruction of the fleet, or at least enough structural damage to cripple the invading force.

And to think, it doesn't even take 5 years to do.

OTOH, other things could influence this battle. The Star Destroyers (what exactly was the invading force made up of again? I forgot) could go into hyperspace, in which case the shuttles would be programed to dephase/decloak if they detected any major accelerations. Maybe one or two shuttles wouldn't be quick enough but the third one would certainly get the engines.

As Mike has noted on his site, a phase-cloaked ship should still be affected by gas weapons...which the Empire has plenty of.

I musta missed that part, sorry. But I am curious, what's the rationale there? Matter is matter, phased matter is phased matter. The only thing that results from an interaction between them is a chroniton signature. What's Mike's source on this.

AdmiralKanos - shuttles can go warp one and stop on a dime. not to mention the maneuverability they have. Yes, they would be affected by repulsor beams and tractor beams, but that assumes one could accurately target it.

And I'm not Order2Chaos. I'm a friend of his at his house, who thought the situation was friggin' hilarious... so I registered. My first post here (and anything in this thread that isn't obviously by me) is his via me as proxy. You guys should let him in anyway. Look, I don't know what you know apparently, but from what I've seen, he's just having a little fun. Yeah he got a bit upset with visionrazor, but from what I've seen and heard, he's more interested in having fun on TK and TBBS than wrecking this place (though I must say, he has a really low opinion of Darth Wong, and not just for his posts on this board... something about an Israel essay? I haven't seen it.). So yeah... if you need, I'd be a character witness. He doesn't want to screw up yr board. Oh, and he says to tell Darth Wong that "without conditions you've received from other sources" (? damned if i know), he won't join anyways... so i guess you can ignore most of this paragraph. -Chris

[AdmiralKanos]

I musta missed that part, sorry. But I am curious, what's the rationale there? Matter is matter, phased matter is phased matter. The only thing that results from an interaction between them is a chroniton signature. What's Mike's source on this.

Phase-cloaked people could breathe in "The Next Phase".

AdmiralKanos - shuttles can go warp one and stop on a dime. not to mention the maneuverability they have. Yes, they would be affected by repulsor beams and tractor beams, but that assumes one could accurately target it.

If they're using warp, they can be easily targeted. Not to mention the fact that they'll be pulled out of warp by interdictors. Worf used the same trick to knock a bunch of Jemmies out of warp in DS9.

And I'm not Order2Chaos. I'm a friend of his at his house, who thought the situation was friggin' hilarious... so I registered. My first post here (and anything in this thread that isn't obviously by me) is his via me as proxy. You guys should let him in anyway. Look, I don't know what you know apparently, but from what I've seen, he's just having a little fun.

Whatever.

Yeah he got a bit upset with visionrazor, but from what I've seen and heard, he's more interested in having fun on TK and TBBS than wrecking this place (though I must say, he has a really low opinion of Darth Wong, and not just for his posts on this board... something about an Israel essay? I haven't seen it.).

I'm Darth Wong; read the Announcements. And if he thinks I'm a bad person because I disagree with him on Israel/Palestine, too bad. I'm hardly the only one in the world who doesn't buy into the "blameless Israel" story. But it's interesting to know the motivation behind his hatred for me; he was not forthright enough to come out and say that himself.

So yeah... if you need, I'd be a character witness. He doesn't want to screw up yr board. Oh, and he says to tell Darth Wong that "without conditions you've received from other sources" (? damned if i know), he won't join anyways... so i guess you can ignore most of this paragraph. -Chris

Whatever.

[GeeYouEye]

I musta missed that part, sorry. But I am curious, what's the rationale there? Matter is matter, phased matter is phased matter. The only thing that results from an interaction between them is a chroniton signature. What's Mike's source on this.

Phase-cloaked people could breathe in "The Next Phase".

AdmiralKanos - shuttles can go warp one and stop on a dime. not to mention the maneuverability they have. Yes, they would be affected by repulsor beams and tractor beams, but that assumes one could accurately target it.

If they're using warp, they can be easily targeted. Not to mention the fact that they'll be pulled out of warp by interdictors. Worf used the same trick to knock a bunch of Jemmies out of warp in DS9.

And I'm not Order2Chaos. I'm a friend of his at his house, who thought the situation was friggin' hilarious... so I registered. My first post here (and anything in this thread that isn't obviously by me) is his via me as proxy. You guys should let him in anyway. Look, I don't know what you know apparently, but from what I've seen, he's just having a little fun.

Whatever.

Yeah he got a bit upset with visionrazor, but from what I've seen and heard, he's more interested in having fun on TK and TBBS than wrecking this place (though I must say, he has a really low opinion of Darth Wong, and not just for his posts on this board... something about an Israel essay? I haven't seen it.).

I'm Darth Wong; read the Announcements. And if he thinks I'm a bad person because I disagree with him on Israel/Palestine, too bad. I'm hardly the only one in the world who doesn't buy into the "blameless Israel" story. But it's interesting to know the motivation behind his hatred for me; he was not forthright enough to come out and say that himself.

So yeah... if you need, I'd be a character witness. He doesn't want to screw up yr board. Oh, and he says to tell Darth Wong that "without conditions you've received from other sources" (? damned if i know), he won't join anyways... so i guess you can ignore most of this paragraph. -Chris

Whatever.

I don't think he hates you... (yes, I'll go read the announcements now)... after asking, I don't think it'd be a good idea for me to tell you what he thinks of you - you'd probably ban me... but it's not hate, or even particularly dislike...how to say this diplomatically... pity would be a good word. At least that's my interp of it. Oh, and he also says that if you let him on for a few minutes, he'll tell you exactly what he thinks of you and your Israel essay (what the heck is that anyway?) - he says he'll post his point-by-point rebuttal of everything he didn't like about it that he put on TBBS a while ago... so don't let him on. please. id rather not be banned. or if you do want to, wait until tomorrow when I'm at home so an IP block won't hit me... at least i don't think it won't. does the fact that we both have DSL to the same CO matter? -Chris

[Darth Wong]

I don't think he hates you... (yes, I'll go read the announcements now)... after asking, I don't think it'd be a good idea for me to tell you what he thinks of you - you'd probably ban me... but it's not hate, or even particularly dislike...how to say this diplomatically... pity would be a good word. At least that's my interp of it.

I'm sure that's how he expresses it. That wouldn't surprise me at all. He has undoubtedly constructed a complete armchair psychological of me based on his various prejudices.

Oh, and he also says that if you let him on for a few minutes, he'll tell you exactly what he thinks of you and your Israel essay (what the heck is that anyway?) - he says he'll post his point-by-point rebuttal of everything he didn't like about it that he put on TBBS a while ago... so don't let him on. please. id rather not be banned. or if you do want to, wait until tomorrow when I'm at home so an IP block won't hit me... at least i don't think it won't. does the fact that we both have DSL to the same CO matter? -Chris

We long ago stopped discussing I/P on this board because all of the good arguments from both sides have been made already. Tell him to search for I/P threads on the locked archive board at http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/phpBB2/ where every argument has been made, remade, rehashed, refuted back and forth between both sides, etc. I'm sure he believes he's come up with some argument that's never been seen before; after he's slogged through thousands of archived posts on the subject, he will probably recognize that this was not the case after all.

By the way, address the topic of this thread.

[Crown]

This is like a bad soap drama...

[GeeYouEye]

By the way, address the topic of this thread.

Very well. The argument that Ro and Geordi could breathe is made irrelevant by the fact that the Romulan did not explosively decompress (which such a sudden transition would have caused) when thrown out of the ship. Therefore, you can come to only one (admittedly ludicrous, but fully supported) conclusion: that there is air permeating phased space, which is also supported by Geordi not suffocating when he stuck his head into the interphase device. Therefore, gas weapons would pass right through a starship. Only gravity-manipulating technology would have any effect, and while it's certainly possible to use it, targeting a shuttle wildly maneuvering while at lightspeed would be difficult at best.

O2C isn't the only one who watches Star Trek.

[GeeYouEye]

Oh, and one more thing: it takes one hell of a gravity field to pull a ship out of warp. Even a black hole doesn't always do it, unless ships have gotten much, much worse in this regard since the 23rd century, which they certainly haven't. Whereas a Star Destroyer can be pulled out by the medium-sized-planet-at-all-points-of-the-field gravity field an Interdictor puts out.

[YT300000]

Oh, and one more thing: it takes one hell of a gravity field to pull a ship out of warp. Even a black hole doesn't always do it, unless ships have gotten much, much worse in this regard since the 23rd century, which they certainly haven't.

They have. In TOS a black hole couldn't pull the E-nil out of warp. In TNG, the Dyson sphere (a hollow sphere 120 000 km diameter) did.

[Darth Wong]

Very well. The argument that Ro and Geordi could breathe is made irrelevant by the fact that the Romulan did not explosively decompress (which such a sudden transition would have caused) when thrown out of the ship.

Do you have some evidence showing that a human body blows up like a bomb when placed in vacuum? Why wouldn't the air in the lungs simply exit through the normal breathing passages, followed by various internal blood vessel ruptures which won't be noticeable at a distance?

Therefore, you can come to only one (admittedly ludicrous, but fully supported) conclusion: that there is air permeating phased space, which is also supported by Geordi not suffocating when he stuck his head into the interphase device. Therefore, gas weapons would pass right through a starship. Only gravity-manipulating technology would have any effect, and while it's certainly possible to use it, targeting a shuttle wildly maneuvering while at lightspeed would be difficult at best.

O2C isn't the only one who watches Star Trek.

I would still like to see the basis for your claim that a human body should explode when put in vacuum.

[Darth Wong]

Oh, and one more thing: it takes one hell of a gravity field to pull a ship out of warp. Even a black hole doesn't always do it, unless ships have gotten much, much worse in this regard since the 23rd century, which they certainly haven't. Whereas a Star Destroyer can be pulled out by the medium-sized-planet-at-all-points-of-the-field gravity field an Interdictor puts out.

Two points:

1) Worf did it with a graviton beam in DS9. It is hardly reasonable to believe that a BOP puts out a greater gravity field than an interdictor cruiser can.

2) An Interdictor puts out a gravity well much stronger than that of a planet. Ships can go to hyperspace in planetary gravity wells if they need to (it just messes up their navigation), and have even used hyperspace in the black hole-infested Maw.

[Keevan_Colton]

I would still like to see the basis for your claim that a human body should explode when put in vacuum.

Bad bad sci-fi special effects.....

It's not pleasant but it isnt the equivalent of a human hand grenade some people seem to be trained to expect.

[Joe Momma]

Do you have some evidence showing that a human body blows up like a bomb when placed in vacuum? Why wouldn't the air in the lungs simply exit through the normal breathing passages, followed by various internal blood vessel ruptures which won't be noticeable at a distance?

Bad bad sci-fi special effects.....

It's not pleasant but it isnt the equivalent of a human hand grenade some people seem to be trained to expect.

There's actually a decent webpage collecting studies of actual decompression incidents here:

http://www.sff.net/people/Geoffrey.Landis/vacuum.html

And yeah, it amounts to suffocation and some severe swelling. None of the "exploding body" bullshit featured in movies like Outland.

-- Joe Momma

[FaxModem1]

First off, I would make a (probably in the hundreds of thousands)list of all the healthiest people(mentally and physically). I would grab every Galaxy and Nebula class ship I could find since they can hold a lot of people. I would send them to the planet Baku, where humanity can develop hidden in paradise(just to be mean spirited, I photon torpedo the Baku town, I want the planet for humans only). I establish colonies all over the planet, make industrial facilities on all the other planets and moons in that system to make a fleet for them. This is our survival plan, to make sure that that the human race survives from the Empire(even if the GE is human).

I would also have every bit of culture(books, art, music, history) be moved to Baku so that we don't forget who we are. This way we have a seed in the safest place in the galaxy. Also, only the transport fleet and I will know about this, best not to let anyone else know or it could be comprimised. And for total safety, all records of the planet Baku shall be deleted. So everyone will only think of it as the Briar Patch, a bad place for ships to travel in.

On the rest of the Galatic front, I would boost shipbuilding as big as possible and have a fleet defend Earth, Vulcan, Andor, and Betazed. THey would continually produce and produce and produce ships until their was at least a million. Onc ethe Galactic Empire comes, there will be four spectactular battles, probably with each time us losing horribly. THe Federation dies across the galaxy, but I'm safe and sound on Baku and I let the Empire never know about us.

I'm selfish, I know, but hey, were doomed anyway, might as well save my butt.

[Darth Wong]

It would take many, many, many lifetimes for the Feddies to build a million ships. After several centuries, they only have a few thousand. And most of those are small.

As for your escape plan, that's not much of a defense. More like "running away". And the Empire would find it sooner or later anyway; they travelled in the Maw and the Inner Core. They can travel in the Briar Patch. Unlike Fed ships, Imperial ships don't have "manifolds".

[NecronLord]

1) Worf did it with a graviton beam in DS9. It is hardly reasonable to believe that a BOP puts out a greater gravity field than an interdictor cruiser can.

Actually it was "Inverse gravitons," (I watched that episode last night) which destabalises warp fields and prevents them working. A minor (few days in a shipyard) modification to an interdictor would be able to emit 'inverse' gravitons IMO.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Even if you got 1 million ships magically placed in one space, you'd only need 2000 torpedoes per ship (8 times the load of a GCS) fired at an ISD to take down its shields.

[SirNitram]

1) Worf did it with a graviton beam in DS9. It is hardly reasonable to believe that a BOP puts out a greater gravity field than an interdictor cruiser can.

Actually it was "Inverse gravitons," (I watched that episode last night) which destabalises warp fields and prevents them working. A minor (few days in a shipyard) modification to an interdictor would be able to emit 'inverse' gravitons IMO.

Or a five second flip of the switch(An Interdictor has used it's arrays to produce antigrav, and shove SW ships away. What was that in, one of the X-wing novels..).

[Captain Cyran]

I would try to find the largest amount of white cloth I can find. And then make a flag.

I second that motion. There is no way in hell that with only 200 ships and only 5 years I'll be able to stop a serious ivasion. Give me 50 years, near unlimited resources, and Thrawn as a commander and MAYBE we will talk.