In Defense of the Federation

[The Silence and I]

I would also start with a trip to the Briar Patch. Sure the Imperials can go there--why would they? And in case they do come knocking I would have everything phase-cloak capable and ready to hide in the nebula at a moment's notice. For the colonies on the ground, I would employ massive cloaking facilities, maybie attempt to phase-cloak the entire planet This ain't very feasible, but with enough time and a collection of the best undying scientists... it's a better chance than fighting, and surrender is just as bad.

[NecronLord]

Or a five second flip of the switch(An Interdictor has used it's arrays to produce antigrav, and shove SW ships away. What was that in, one of the X-wing novels..).

We cannot be certain, as inverse gravitons do not exist outside of the realm of treknobabble, as far as I know. Thus why I said a few days was an upper limit.

[NecronLord]

I would also start with a trip to the Briar Patch. Sure the Imperials can go there--why would they? And in case they do come knocking I would have everything phase-cloak capable and ready to hide in the nebula at a moment's notice. For the colonies on the ground, I would employ massive cloaking facilities, maybie attempt to phase-cloak the entire planet This ain't very feasible, but with enough time and a collection of the best undying scientists... it's a better chance than fighting, and surrender is just as bad.

A planet can be cloaked. Phase cloak is an unknown. And if they know you're there, then they fly through you and you eat superheated ionised gas.

[The Silence and I]

The idea is to hide, not put up a good defense. The patch + the cloak should make it difficult to find me, and I'm not bought on the gasses interact with phase-cloaked object idea anyway.

[FaxModem1]

The whole point of my plan is to run away and hide, I know were screwed so I'm just having us start over in somewhere they can't find us, and If I delete the records of a planet inside the Briar Patch, they will probably just think of it as just some gas cloud that is not worth anything. That way, we stay safe.

As for the 1 million figure, I agree that the UFP would never reach it, it was just meant to show that they would keep on making ships. Enough for the Empire to think that it was our last stand and that they had defeated us(which they kinda do), so that they will leave us alone.

Its running away, but its running away smartly.

[darthdavid]

I would draw in every federation ship and fuse it together into a sphere around earth building more and more till it's power out put was enough to destroy a ... carrak crusier

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

By the way, address the topic of this thread.

Very well. The argument that Ro and Geordi could breathe is made irrelevant by the fact that the Romulan did not explosively decompress (which such a sudden transition would have caused) when thrown out of the ship.

Human beings do not explode in vacuum. ST knows this (did the ensign in Nemesis explode?)

Therefore, you can come to only one (admittedly ludicrous, but fully supported) conclusion: that there is air permeating phased space, which is also supported by Geordi not suffocating when he stuck his head into the interphase device.

Did he stick his head in it long enough to start suffocating? No.


You're an idiot.

[GeeYouEye]

Human beings do not explode in vacuum. ST knows this (did the ensign in Nemesis explode?)

1. No they don't but bursting skin lesions, internal organ rupturing, etc. do occur. And dang, what is problem of some people being unable to tell the difference between saying "explosive decompression" and "explode"?

2. No he didn't, but the air got sucked out with him. We never saw him die, either. Are you claiming there's air in regular space.

Did he stick his head in it long enough to start suffocating? No.



You're an idiot.

Did we see when he stuck his head in? Or hear the sound effect? No.




Right back at you.

[Darth Wong]

1. No they don't but bursting skin lesions, internal organ rupturing, etc. do occur. And dang, what is problem of some people being unable to tell the difference between saying "explosive decompression" and "explode"?

You can see internal organ ruptures from a distance? That's amazing. And skin lesions will not be particularly visible from a distance either. You claimed that phased space must be permeated with air since he did not "explosively decompress"; if you were talking about effects which would not be so dramatic or violent, then your point is nullified since we would not see them.

Anyway, since you seem to think that phased space is permeated with air, then you are arguing that he must have SURVIVED being ejected from the ship. Why was he not flailing about, then? He has air to breathe, and he won't freeze that fast. He looked stone-cold dead to me.

[GeeYouEye]

1. No they don't but bursting skin lesions, internal organ rupturing, etc. do occur. And dang, what is problem of some people being unable to tell the difference between saying "explosive decompression" and "explode"?

You can see internal organ ruptures from a distance? That's amazing. And skin lesions will not be particularly visible from a distance either. You claimed that phased space must be permeated with air since he did not "explosively decompress"; if you were talking about effects which would not be so dramatic or violent, then your point is nullified since we would not see them.

Anyway, since you seem to think that phased space is permeated with air, then you are arguing that he must have SURVIVED being ejected from the ship. Why was he not flailing about, then? He has air to breathe, and he won't freeze that fast. He looked stone-cold dead to me.

Boiling blood will rupture those skin lesions. And that would be a) immediate, and b) visible. Will he be torn apart? No. Will he leak from multiple ruptures in his skin? Yes.

Given the position he fell out of the ship from (fetal except the arms were spread), the position he ends up in (standing straight, arms at his side), and given that rigor mortis and muscle spasms from fading brain activity and adrenaline would result in curling up into a true fetal position, I'd say he knew he was doomed, and was preparing to face it like a good Romulan soldier, at attention.

[Darth Wong]

Boiling blood will rupture those skin lesions. And that would be a) immediate, and b) visible. Will he be torn apart? No. Will he leak from multiple ruptures in his skin? Yes.

Please cite your source for blood boiling instantly. After all, blood should theoretically remain under pressure thanks to elastic pressure in the blood vessels.

By the way, http://www.sff.net/people/Geoffrey.Landis/vacuum.html disagrees with you. And he does have a PhD in physics, so I would hope that you have some kind of highly credible source to contradict both him and the theoretical objection I raised.

Given the position he fell out of the ship from (fetal except the arms were spread), the position he ends up in (standing straight, arms at his side), and given that rigor mortis and muscle spasms from fading brain activity and adrenaline would result in curling up into a true fetal position, I'd say he knew he was doomed, and was preparing to face it like a good Romulan soldier, at attention.

And I'd say that any theory requiring a thick breathable atmosphere in phased space with zero gravitational effects despite the known gravitational interaction of phased and non-phased objects is ridiculous, particularly in light of the fact that it seems to depend on assertions which don't make sense, such as your claim that blood trapped in elastic vessels will boil instantly when the body is exposed to vacuum.

[SPOOFE]

Another source about decompression: http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_147.html

[Darth Wong]

The bit about the Soyuz astronauts is particularly interesting. If the recovery crews thought they were just asleep, the damage must obviously not have been too severe. Certainly not something which would be blatantly obvious from a large distance.

[Sea Skimmer]

The bit about the Soyuz astronauts is particularly interesting. If the recovery crews thought they were just asleep, the damage must obviously not have been too severe. Certainly not something which would be blatantly obvious from a large distance.

I've seen the video of that recovery and the team trying to resuscitate them. The only skin you could see what there faces, but those looked perfectly normal. Nothing discolored or bloody or burst.

[GeeYouEye]

Please cite your source for blood boiling instantly. After all, blood should theoretically remain under pressure thanks to elastic pressure in the blood vessels.

By the way, http://www.sff.net/people/Geoffrey.Landis/vacuum.html disagrees with you. And he does have a PhD in physics, so I would hope that you have some kind of highly credible source to contradict both him and the theoretical objection I raised.

Fine, I'll drop this argument, but there are others. Take the disruptor for instance. Even assuming that disruptors are completely energy weapons, and not gas/plasma/particle weapons, the detonation of the disruptor should say something. Follow this train of thought, if you will.

First, consider that in Kirk's time, a phaser on overload would have been enough to destroy half his cabin, or so he (or was it Spock) claimed. That's quite an energy release.

Second, consider that, given that 100 years have passed, and the Romulans are always out to have the most powerful guns, a disruptor on overload should have been able to do quite a bit more damage.

Third, even given that there was no gas in the disruptor, the explosion should have made the surrounding air much, much hotter (hence "explosion").

Fourth, when two masses of air, especially at vastly different temperatures, collide, the result is a very loud noise (hence why explosions make noise).

Fifth, since non-phased gasses and the phased universe interact (according to you, anyway), the result of an explosion is, even if not seen, should have at least been heard by everyone.

Sixth, since it obviously wasn't, we can conclude that one of two (admittedly equally ridiculous) scenarios is true. Either there is a) no need to breathe in phased space, or b) air permeating phased space.

Actually, now that I think about it, I could have just avoided typing this whole thing and just said that if gases interact with phased space, then any vibrations (sounds, words, speech, footsteps, etc.) should be audible to everyone else.

Given the position he fell out of the ship from (fetal except the arms were spread), the position he ends up in (standing straight, arms at his side), and given that rigor mortis and muscle spasms from fading brain activity and adrenaline would result in curling up into a true fetal position, I'd say he knew he was doomed, and was preparing to face it like a good Romulan soldier, at attention.

And I'd say that any theory requiring a thick breathable atmosphere in phased space with zero gravitational effects despite the known gravitational interaction of phased and non-phased objects is ridiculous, particularly in light of the fact that it seems to depend on assertions which don't make sense, such as your claim that blood trapped in elastic vessels will boil instantly when the body is exposed to vacuum.[/quote]
Except that all we have to go by is the known gravitational interaction between a phased and non-phased object (Geordi & Ro & the Romulan and the gravity generators aboard the Enterprise & shuttle & Romulan ship). For all we know, there is no gravity in phased space, and all gravitational interaction there is a result of the non-phased objects occupying similar positions in space as the phased objects.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Wrong. TNG phasers explode with the force of a firecracker ("The Hunted")

[GeeYouEye]

Wrong. TNG phasers explode with the force of a firecracker ("The Hunted")

I must have missed something. Something like about where in "The Next Phase" a phaser explodes.

[Darth Wong]

Fine, I'll drop this argument, but there are others. Take the disruptor for instance. Even assuming that disruptors are completely energy weapons, and not gas/plasma/particle weapons, the detonation of the disruptor should say something. Follow this train of thought, if you will.

First, consider that in Kirk's time, a phaser on overload would have been enough to destroy half his cabin, or so he (or was it Spock) claimed. That's quite an energy release.

Second, consider that, given that 100 years have passed, and the Romulans are always out to have the most powerful guns, a disruptor on overload should have been able to do quite a bit more damage.

It is a totally groundless assumption that hand weapons must always get more powerful over time, particularly when there are potential safety hazards involved. If anything, they probably made them more efficient, thus requiring a smaller and safer power cell.

Third, even given that there was no gas in the disruptor, the explosion should have made the surrounding air much, much hotter (hence "explosion").

It was harmless from 30 feet away to Ro and Geordi; why would a presumably weaker interaction kill anybody who's not phased?

Fourth, when two masses of air, especially at vastly different temperatures, collide, the result is a very loud noise (hence why explosions make noise).

No, explosions make a noise because of the compression shockwave caused by the localized pressure increase. If the phaser releases most of its energy as radiation, the shockwave won't be particularly dangerous. Indeed, if it were anywhere near as powerful as you say, only a lunatic would set one off only 30 feet away. You aren't safe from the detonation of a modern anti-personnel grenade at that range.

Fifth, since non-phased gasses and the phased universe interact (according to you, anyway), the result of an explosion is, even if not seen, should have at least been heard by everyone.

Why? There is obviously some kind of interaction, hence the fact that they can breathe. However, given the fact that the explosion appears to be a largely flash/bang radiative type of burst (indeed, there is no sharp report even from Geordi's perspective), I don't see any reason for your conclusion. Looks more like a non sequitur to me.

Sixth, since it obviously wasn't, we can conclude that one of two (admittedly equally ridiculous) scenarios is true. Either there is a) no need to breathe in phased space, or b) air permeating phased space.

Either that, or the phaser (or disruptor) outputs its energy as a mostly radiative burst, which is basically what we saw.

Actually, now that I think about it, I could have just avoided typing this whole thing and just said that if gases interact with phased space, then any vibrations (sounds, words, speech, footsteps, etc.) should be audible to everyone else.

Some kind of interaction does not necessarily mean 100% interaction. Does the term "black/white fallacy" mean anything to you?

Except that all we have to go by is the known gravitational interaction between a phased and non-phased object (Geordi & Ro & the Romulan and the gravity generators aboard the Enterprise & shuttle & Romulan ship).

And what makes you think that this example doesn't count? Just wish it away?

For all we know, there is no gravity in phased space, and all gravitational interaction there is a result of the non-phased objects occupying similar positions in space as the phased objects.

Please review basic science; gravitational attraction is MUTUAL. If phased mass does not generate any gravity, then it shouldn't be affected by gravity either.

[Darth Wong]

Wrong. TNG phasers explode with the force of a firecracker ("The Hunted")

I must have missed something. Something like about where in "The Next Phase" a phaser explodes.

OK, disruptor. That is an example of the red-herring fallacy, aka "nitpicking". The point remains that you have no basis for your claim that the disruptor explosion must be extremely powerful, particularly since Geordi and Ro Laren set it off perhaps 30 feet away from themselves: a suicidal action since it and they are all phased, unless it is nowhere near as powerful as you think.

[GeeYouEye]

It is a totally groundless assumption that hand weapons must always get more powerful over time, particularly when there are potential safety hazards involved. If anything, they probably made them more efficient, thus requiring a smaller and safer power cell.

Last time I checked, the Romulans weren't much worried about safety. Otherwise they wouldn't put a black hole on every warbird as an energy source, they wouldn't put personnel on an engine testbed ship, etc.

It was harmless from 30 feet away to Ro and Geordi; why would a presumably weaker interaction kill anybody who's not phased?

There's no indication that light (of any wavelength, including infrared) goes from phased to non-phased space, which may have something to do with the fact that this wasn't a main point of mine, nor did I claim it to be. In other words, learn to read, not just infer, especially when I'm spelling it all out for you, step by step. I never said that the explosion itself would kill anybody.

No, explosions make a noise because of the compression shockwave caused by the localized pressure increase. If the phaser releases most of its energy as radiation, the shockwave won't be particularly dangerous. Indeed, if it were anywhere near as powerful as you say, only a lunatic would set one off only 30 feet away. You aren't safe from the detonation of a modern anti-personnel grenade at that range.

And what do you think starts that shockwave?

Why? There is obviously some kind of interaction, hence the fact that they can breathe. However, given the fact that the explosion appears to be a largely flash/bang radiative type of burst (indeed, there is no sharp report even from Geordi's perspective), I don't see any reason for your conclusion. Looks more like a non sequitur to me.

Okay then, where does the interaction stop? If, somehow, the non-phased gasses can be absorbed into the bloodstream, do they become phased? If they do, then there would be a gradual loss of atmosphere, one that even if undetectable on the Enterprise, should have been obvious in the Shuttle, at least to the sensors. If it doesn't become phased, walking through a wall should stop all the air in his body, robbing his bloodstream and brain of any oxygen that wasn't there when he was phased.

Either that, or the phaser (or disruptor) outputs its energy as a mostly radiative burst, which is basically what we saw.

Last time I checked, there is a very audible part to the explosion. I suggest rewatching the scene.

Some kind of interaction does not necessarily mean 100% interaction. Does the term "black/white fallacy" mean anything to you?

1. So why just breathing and turbolaser bolts only?
or, to elaborate:
2. Does the term "pick and choose" mean anything to you? If gasses interact for respiration, why don't they interact for everything else? What's in the magic of breathing that allows non-phased oxygen to enter the bloodstream while not allowing any other interaction, except of course a turbolaser bolt destroying the defense fleet? If you want, I'll concede that gasses interact for breathing, but since the explosion went unnoticed, you must concede that a phased ship would be undamaged by a turbolaser bolt (what differentiates an overloading disruptor from a turbolaser bolt, besides scale?). But since I seriously doubt that will happen, the argument continues.

Let's also not forget that the attaching of oxygen to hemoglobin requires bringing the electromagnetic force into play. Since it is obvious that the electrons do not interact with the phased electrons (all else aside, without this, Geordi couldn't have walked through walls), there is no way the oxygen could have possibly bonded to the hemoglobin in the red blood cells.

At this point, you'd probably ask why they can see anything when phased if there's no electromagnetic interaction. The best way to deal with that is to say the rule is that there is a one-way (non-phased affects phased) interaction of bosons (particles with integer spin) whereas the fermions (with half-integer spin) are completely non-reactive. Indeed, this rule, coupled with air permeating phased space, explains all the contradictions in the episode, and those dealing with the Pegasus.

And what makes you think that this example doesn't count? Just wish it away?

Never said it didn't. My point was that we saw no evidence of gravitational attraction between two phased objects.

Please review basic science; gravitational attraction is MUTUAL. If phased mass does not generate any gravity, then it shouldn't be affected by gravity either.

Really? Light doesn't generate gravity, yet it is still affected by it. If you'd bother to think beyond Newton, you'd remember that whole thing about how mass warps the space-time continuum, and that while mutual attraction is the way of most things in the universe, it is not the only way things are pulled together. Mutual attraction only affects things with mass, and there is a decent argument that while phased, Geordi and Ro were massless relative to the non-phased space-time continuum (but not absolutely massless since they obviously weren't moving at c); if they still had mass, surely Data or Worf would have noticed the extra 130 kilos in the shuttle, even if the computer didn't notice it on board the Enterprise.

[SirNitram]

It is a totally groundless assumption that hand weapons must always get more powerful over time, particularly when there are potential safety hazards involved. If anything, they probably made them more efficient, thus requiring a smaller and safer power cell.

Last time I checked, the Romulans weren't much worried about safety. Otherwise they wouldn't put a black hole on every warbird as an energy source, they wouldn't put personnel on an engine testbed ship, etc.

Yet you fail to explain why it must be more powerful.. It's already an instant kill on a direct hit. There's no armoured vehicles in Trek. So why boost the power?

It was harmless from 30 feet away to Ro and Geordi; why would a presumably weaker interaction kill anybody who's not phased?

There's no indication that light (of any wavelength, including infrared) goes from phased to non-phased space, which may have something to do with the fact that this wasn't a main point of mine, nor did I claim it to be. In other words, learn to read, not just infer, especially when I'm spelling it all out for you, step by step. I never said that the explosion itself would kill anybody.

*giggle* Light doesn't go from phased to non-phased space? So, what, was the entire episode pitch black from Geordi's point of view?

No, explosions make a noise because of the compression shockwave caused by the localized pressure increase. If the phaser releases most of its energy as radiation, the shockwave won't be particularly dangerous. Indeed, if it were anywhere near as powerful as you say, only a lunatic would set one off only 30 feet away. You aren't safe from the detonation of a modern anti-personnel grenade at that range.

And what do you think starts that shockwave?

Why? There is obviously some kind of interaction, hence the fact that they can breathe. However, given the fact that the explosion appears to be a largely flash/bang radiative type of burst (indeed, there is no sharp report even from Geordi's perspective), I don't see any reason for your conclusion. Looks more like a non sequitur to me.

Okay then, where does the interaction stop? If, somehow, the non-phased gasses can be absorbed into the bloodstream, do they become phased? If they do, then there would be a gradual loss of atmosphere, one that even if undetectable on the Enterprise, should have been obvious in the Shuttle, at least to the sensors. If it doesn't become phased, walking through a wall should stop all the air in his body, robbing his bloodstream and brain of any oxygen that wasn't there when he was phased.

So instead of thinking for reasons it can be carried through, you'll cling to your moronic 'phased space is full of air' theory? Do you know what Parsimony is?

Either that, or the phaser (or disruptor) outputs its energy as a mostly radiative burst, which is basically what we saw.

Last time I checked, there is a very audible part to the explosion. I suggest rewatching the scene.

Some kind of interaction does not necessarily mean 100% interaction. Does the term "black/white fallacy" mean anything to you?

1. So why just breathing and turbolaser bolts only?
or, to elaborate:
2. Does the term "pick and choose" mean anything to you? If gasses interact for respiration, why don't they interact for everything else? What's in the magic of breathing that allows non-phased oxygen to enter the bloodstream while not allowing any other interaction, except of course a turbolaser bolt destroying the defense fleet? If you want, I'll concede that gasses interact for breathing, but since the explosion went unnoticed, you must concede that a phased ship would be undamaged by a turbolaser bolt (what differentiates an overloading disruptor from a turbolaser bolt, besides scale?). But since I seriously doubt that will happen, the argument continues.

Or that the explosion is pathetically tiny.

As for the Turbolaser, well, it's exact mechanism is under hot debate. However, it's means of doing damage is thermal. And unless Geordi was frozen in Phased Space, I can safely conclude there is also heat absorbed from normal space.

Let's also not forget that the attaching of oxygen to hemoglobin requires bringing the electromagnetic force into play. Since it is obvious that the electrons do not interact with the phased electrons (all else aside, without this, Geordi couldn't have walked through walls), there is no way the oxygen could have possibly bonded to the hemoglobin in the red blood cells.

So you're lobbying this inane 'Phased space is full of air' bullshit instead?

At this point, you'd probably ask why they can see anything when phased if there's no electromagnetic interaction. The best way to deal with that is to say the rule is that there is a one-way (non-phased affects phased) interaction of bosons (particles with integer spin) whereas the fermions (with half-integer spin) are completely non-reactive. Indeed, this rule, coupled with air permeating phased space, explains all the contradictions in the episode, and those dealing with the Pegasus.

Wow, bullshit technobabble to try and shore up a stupid theory. Not surprising.

And what makes you think that this example doesn't count? Just wish it away?

Never said it didn't. My point was that we saw no evidence of gravitational attraction between two phased objects.

Please review basic science; gravitational attraction is MUTUAL. If phased mass does not generate any gravity, then it shouldn't be affected by gravity either.

Really? Light doesn't generate gravity, yet it is still affected by it.

Light has mass, therefore light generates gravity. It's just not much. U/c, moron. Try graduating high school physics before spouting this.

If you'd bother to think beyond Newton, you'd remember that whole thing about how mass warps the space-time continuum, and that while mutual attraction is the way of most things in the universe, it is not the only way things are pulled together. Mutual attraction only affects things with mass, and there is a decent argument that while phased, Geordi and Ro were massless relative to the non-phased space-time continuum (but not absolutely massless since they obviously weren't moving at c); if they still had mass, surely Data or Worf would have noticed the extra 130 kilos in the shuttle, even if the computer didn't notice it on board the Enterprise.

Why must they notice it? When did they check?

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Wrong. TNG phasers explode with the force of a firecracker ("The Hunted")

I must have missed something. Something like about where in "The Next Phase" a phaser explodes.

First, consider that in Kirk's time, a phaser on overload would have been enough to destroy half his cabin, or so he (or was it Spock) claimed. That's quite an energy release.

Second, consider that, given that 100 years have passed, and the Romulans are always out to have the most powerful guns, a disruptor on overload should have been able to do quite a bit more damage.

Hypocrite.

[GeeYouEye]

Yet you fail to explain why it must be more powerful.. It's already an instant kill on a direct hit. There's no armoured vehicles in Trek. So why boost the power?

Why it must be more powerful? There is no reason why it must be more powerful, however, the fact is that it is very likely more powerful, due to reasons I've spelled out above.

*giggle* Light doesn't go from phased to non-phased space? So, what, was the entire episode pitch black from Geordi's point of view?

That made absolutely no sense. Yes that's what I said, but no what that means is that no one can in non-phased (ie normal) space can see anyone in phased space. And that you giggle over that disturbs me.

So instead of thinking for reasons it can be carried through, you'll cling to your moronic 'phased space is full of air' theory? Do you know what Parsimony is?

Do you realize how moronic it is that while phased matter can pass through solids, it can't pass through gasses? And I assume the definition of parsimony you are referring to is the one that is essentially Occham's razor.

Or that the explosion is pathetically tiny.

As for the Turbolaser, well, it's exact mechanism is under hot debate. However, it's means of doing damage is thermal. And unless Geordi was frozen in Phased Space, I can safely conclude there is also heat absorbed from normal space.

If the disruptor's explosion was that small, why did Geordi and Ro have to get as far away from it as they could? And besides that, the turbolaser bolt still has to hit something in order for thermal effects to be observed, unless it is just an energy beam, which no one will argue (with any success) is the case.

So you're lobbying this inane 'Phased space is full of air' bullshit instead?

Actually, I'd go for the "there's no need to breathe in phased space" theory myself. But either that or "phased space is full of air" is more plausible than being able to pass through solids but not gasses and not be heard.

Wow, bullshit technobabble to try and shore up a stupid theory. Not surprising.

It's not technobabble. Read any college level or higher physics book. Fermions (named after Fermi) are all the particles that make up matter, and include the leptons (including electrons and other light particles) and hadrons (including baryons such as protons and neutrons, which have three quarks each, and mesons with two quarks). They have half-interger spin, and are bound by the Pauli exclusion principle which states that no two fermions can occupy the same space at the same time. Bosons, such as photons, W, Z, and the (hypothetical) graviton, have integer spin, and are not bound by the Pauli exclusion principle.

Light has mass, therefore light generates gravity. It's just not much. U/c, moron. Try graduating high school physics before spouting this.

Light has no mass. It's just 0. UC? Are you saying you went to a UC? No wonder you think light has mass, since they lie to kids about everything else there. Try graduating 8th grade general science before spouting this.

Why must they notice it? When did they check?

Probably because otherwise the thrust would have been inappropriate for the mass they carried? If the engines are required to get the shuttle up to 500 kph, the computer must know the mass. If the mass is higher than expected (ie the shuttle, an android, and a Klingon), then the requisite speed would not be attained. And even the most minute unexpected change in speed results in an error being output ("Imaginary Friend").

Don't try again. I'd rather argue with Darth Wong, as he actually has a point that, given a certain point of view, could be accepted as plausible. True, if you knew nothing of fermions and bosons you could have had one too...but saying that light has mass...

[SirNitram]

My god, you're amazing. You don't know U/c? In retrospect, it's a bad example, E=MC^2, solved for M, is superior, but that doesn't excuse you not knowing high school physics.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

ROFL! Oh my god you're funny! The pure irony of accussing him of not knowing grade 8 physics!