14 Fascist Characteristics

[Lord Sander]

http://www.whoseflorida.com/misc_pages/ ... ascism.htm

Does it sound familiar? *Puts on flameproof suit*

[The Albino Raven]

I applaud you for being willing to take the onslaught that you know is coming when you speak your mind. I agree with the web page in that many of the characteristics are extremely similar. Makes you wonder doesn't it. If you are going to flame Lord Sander, flame me as well.

(Braces for impact)

[BlkbrryTheGreat]

The 14 characteristics are:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symb ols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial, ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy.

6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

Seem to be present in the US.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed .

I haven't seen any evidence that this is the case here in the US.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested.

Not the case in the US, nor would I argue that this is a defining characteristic of facisim as some of Hitler's strongest supporters were among the student's and professor's of acadamia.

Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.

While suppression of free speech may be a sign of facism, refusing to fund the arts is certainly not a defining characteristic though.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses, and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

Present in the US.

14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

Present in US, but the number of assassinations seems to be low; probably due to the strength of the two "mainstream" parties and the party's control on who actually gets selected to run in the primaries.

[weemadando]

10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed .

I haven't seen any evidence that this is the case here in the US.

IIRC the Bush Administration has made several attempts to blacklist certain unions and place heavy restrictions upon others. I'm not sure if any of these have gone before, let alone passed Congress.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested.

Not the case in the US, nor would I argue that this is a defining characteristic of facisim as some of Hitler's strongest supporters were among the student's and professor's of acadamia.

Wow, then you haven't been watching the news. Or you've been watching American news. To say something bad about the President or nation, even in an academic sense is still heavily censured. And I can see the quite open hostility of many on this board to people who are involved in the "Arts" and other such "non-productive" learning.

Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.

While suppression of free speech may be a sign of facism, refusing to fund the arts is certainly not a defining characteristic though.

Refusing to fund the arts is more often than not a sign of budgetary stress.

14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

Present in US, but the number of assassinations seems to be low; probably due to the strength of the two "mainstream" parties and the party's control on who actually gets selected to run in the primaries.

Fraudulent Elections is a topic where people refuse to see a middle ground. The democrats say that the republicans did everything dirty and underhanded, while the republicans claim that they are as clean as a whistle and its the democrats that did it all. (Already in the background I can hear the wails of: "But they diiiiiid" from certain parties). Get over it. Both sides played it dirty and the side that played it dirty best won.

[Illuminatus Primus]

And I can see the quite open hostility of many on this board to people who are involved in the "Arts" and other such "non-productive" learning.

I've never heard Wong or any others of similiar comments who did not say something true of Liberal Arts.

[The Albino Raven]

10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed .

I haven't seen any evidence that this is the case here in the US.

Both the legislation he is trying to pass, and his record as a governor and business man show his disdain for labor unions.

[Joe]

I applaud you for being willing to take the onslaught that you know is coming when you speak your mind. I agree with the web page in that many of the characteristics are extremely similar. Makes you wonder doesn't it. If you are going to flame Lord Sander, flame me as well.

(Braces for impact)

Yes, congratulations for claiming that America is approaching fascism. No one has ever made that suggestion on this board before.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

http://www.whoseflorida.com/misc_pages/ ... ascism.htm

Does it sound familiar? *Puts on flameproof suit*

No.

First of all, neither Indonesia nor Chile never possessed Fascist regimes, while Argentina and Lebanon have (ignoring Nazi satellite states and the possibility of defining Nasserism as Fascism), leaving the focus of the study incorrect and the possibility of incorrect conclusions high.

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symb ols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

Confusion of nationalism with fascist slogans. Fascist regimes created new ideologies seperate from nationalism, replete with completely new slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Look at Nazi Germany and tell if you see much that harkens back to the nationalism of the Second Reich - There wasn't much there at all. That nationalism had been subsumed and replaced by something else, and that something else was fascist ideology. The two are entirely different things blatantly clear. The Horst Wessel Lied was not Deutschland Uber Alles.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

Fascist regimes, to the contrary, usually promote human rights - for a particular group. What they do is define people who are not in that group, and are not worthy of normal rights and protections. This has not been done in the USA. Actions against non-citizens have in general been applied regardless of ethnic origin, and have not been matched by similiar actions against citizens of the same ethnic origin. This example cannot apply and does, besides, show its origin in fascism.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial, ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

Unifying cause is seen as a genuine threat - But not to patriotism. Rather, to the group around which the ideology focuses.

4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

Most fascist states actually have had paramilitary organizations which were given primacy over the military. The Brownshirts and SS, Mussolini's Blackshirts, and countless other brigades of armed political thugs.

5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy.

One should note that fascist regimes have generally come to power in eras in which government was male-dominated anyway, and that the Argentinan fascist government was heavily influenced by a woman, Evita Peron, who exercised a lot of influence on government for the era in which she lived.

Also, is this really meant as a critique of the US government? There are more Cabinet-level women in Bush's government than in Clinton's, and Cheney's daughter is a lesbian, even if that has been sadly negated. If it is, then it is a rather pathetic attempt at comparison.

6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

Okay. Don't see anything to complain about here - I also don't see any comparison.

7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

It is also was by Communist governments, who mobilized the Proletariat to fight the forces of "Reaction." This will be relevant shortly.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

Religion has been used to serve government since Kings burnt sacrificial offerings before battle a few thousand years B.C. - This is supposed to mean something?

9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

On the contrary, the fascist governments usually gained power through the labour apparatus, lower class toughs, etc. Their difference from communism, however, was that they forced the industrial magnates to cooperate with them, promising them considerable profits if they signed on to the new economic program.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed .

Pure fantasy. There's a reason the Nazi Party was called the National Socialist Party. They just suppressed their opposition thereof.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.

The Nazis poured huge amounts of money into the arts. So did Fascist Italy. So did Fascist Spain. But it was their definition of the arts. Likewise, they loved intellectuals - Intellectuals who spoke the Party Line. You hear about tortured and imprisoned intellectuals, but hardly the entire intelligensia of those countries. Many, many more happily went along with things.

One wonders, considering how art was used as propaganda by the government - naturally, considering the government funded it - if any government funding of the art is good. Refusal to fund the arts, then, can be seen as a good thing - It lets anyone who has the money do whatever they want with it; things funded by the government can easily represent the government line, regardless of what sort of government it is. Does this idiot merely want his version of the arts, hrmm?

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses, and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

They were given unlimited power to violate laws, or more precisely to imprison people in illegal fashion, to torture and execute. The government engaged in show trials, and in general the entire apparatus was unrestrained. Of course the police should have the power to enforce laws - Duh. As long as they're enforcing laws. If they're still enforcing laws then they're not breaking them, now, are they? If they enter your home without a warrant that isn't enforcement - that's illegal search and seizure. It really depends on how you define terms, and this is worded to sound big and scary.

Also, the people usually didn't think they were forgoing civil liberties in the name of patriotism - They thought that they still had civil liberties.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

He's confusing fascism with every little tinpot dictatorship in the world.

In fascist governments corruption wasn't rampant - It ceased to exist. You know why? Because the corruption became the officially sanctioned way of doing business. I would be very amused if someone tried to prove that was the why things ran in the USA today.

14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

Sort of like the democrats have been doing for decades in the south to create those voting districts which have a majority of blacks who block-vote for hyper-liberal black democrats? Using his definition, every single democratic country in the world is fascist.

This is a bunch of worthless tripe BS.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

"neither Indonesia nor Chile never" should be "ever", and of course "11" should be quoted, not in italics.

[MKSheppard]

IIRC the Bush Administration has made several attempts to blacklist certain unions and place heavy restrictions upon others. I'm not sure if any of these have gone before, let alone passed Congress.

Would this be the Teamsters? Those guys are dirty to the core

[CJvR]

Does it sound familiar?

Yes, it's the same whining about the evil US that have been circulating for years with few new touches. YAAAWN!!!

*Puts on flameproof suit*

Pulls out lighter, naah why bother? This whining about the US will not go away anyway.

[NapoleonGH]

thats because there is plenty to complain about, dumbass

[Howedar]

*snip long ass-reaming of comparion of USA to fascist state*

*claps*

[Axis Kast]

thats because there is plenty to complain about, dumbass.

I find your case very interesting, Napoleon.

Never have I met an American so confused and embarrassed about his country’s past as to have to spew forth daily apologetics for both Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden. “Oh but we shafted them good all those years with the oil; September 11th was an obvious act of vengeance.” Bullshit. You excuse so much in this world, I don’t know why the hell you didn’t move to Iraq long ago.

[Joe]

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial, ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

Interesting. I find it insulting but not at all surprising given the obvious political leanings of this writer that "capitalists" wasn't included on this list. Adolf Hitler didn't just rail against the Jews, he railed against the greedy, money-grubbing, plutocratic Jews who had stabbed Germany in the back. Hell, one Nazi poster read "Marxism is the Guardian Angel of Capitalism. Vote National Socialist."

[Peregrin Toker]

Most fascist states actually have had paramilitary organizations which were given primacy over the military. The Brownshirts and SS, Mussolini's Blackshirts, and countless other brigades of armed political thugs.

Actually, the SS were a genuinely military institution - they were the elite of the German military. The best of the best. At least, I recall that those SS troops which weren't assigned to guarding concentration camps were somewhere on the Eastern Front.

Ironically, because they were trained never to flee or retreat, (unless they were ordered to) the SS had higher casualty rates than the Wehrmacht.

[EmperorChrostas the Cruel]

Napoleon.
You stupid self hater.
Do you feel that if someone(s) hates you, you have given those someone(s) a good reason to be hated?

Go to a KKK ralley. Ask them the REASON they hate niggers.

You don't need a REASON to hate, only a BELIEF.

Your very EXSISTANCE is an insult to some people. Hence the klan analogy.
Do you FUCKING GET IT?

[Raptor 597]

Most fascist states actually have had paramilitary organizations which were given primacy over the military. The Brownshirts and SS, Mussolini's Blackshirts, and countless other brigades of armed political thugs.

Actually, the SS were a genuinely military institution - they were the elite of the German military. The best of the best. At least, I recall that those SS troops which weren't assigned to guarding concentration camps were somewhere on the Eastern Front.

Ironically, because they were trained never to flee or retreat, (unless they were ordered to) the SS had higher casualty rates than the Wehrmacht.

The Paramilitary of the "3rd Reich" would be the SA, not the Waffen-SS. The SS was paramilitary in some aspects however.

[Perinquus]

Most fascist states actually have had paramilitary organizations which were given primacy over the military. The Brownshirts and SS, Mussolini's Blackshirts, and countless other brigades of armed political thugs.

Actually, the SS were a genuinely military institution - they were the elite of the German military. The best of the best. At least, I recall that those SS troops which weren't assigned to guarding concentration camps were somewhere on the Eastern Front.

Ironically, because they were trained never to flee or retreat, (unless they were ordered to) the SS had higher casualty rates than the Wehrmacht.

Actually, Marina is right. The SS (Shutzstaffel - "protection squad") began it's existence in 1925 as an entirely paramilitary organization, with no ties to the Wehrmacht. It was the Fuehrer's bodyguard. It was formed and expanded as a counter to the SA (Sturmabteilung - "assault detachment"), the brownshirts, who were under the leadership of Ernst Roehm. Roehm became a political rival of Hitler's within the party, and was eventually murdered because of this in 1934, on the so called "Night of the Long Knives". The SA was more or less dismantled following Roehm's murder, and Himmler's SS became the Nazis' paramilitary arm. At this time it was still entirely separate from the Wehrmacht, and was not included in any German war plans. Incidentally, Hitler found it necessary to dismantle the SA partly in order to placate the army, which feared the SA would become a military rival.

The SS did not form combat units until around 1933 or 1934 when it was differentiated into the Allgemeine SS (General SS) and the Waffen SS (Armed SS), and at the time of the Night of the Long Knives, the total strength of the Waffen SS was barely that of a single infantry regiment. The main growth of the Waffen SS would not take place until after 1940, when the war was well underway. Even then, the Waffen SS would remain independent of army command, though in practice, SS field commanders could be placed under army commanders.

So Marina is exactly right - the SS was a paramilitary institution that was given primacy over the nation's military and grew into a rival army within the German war machine.

[Tom_Aurum]

Yeah, but... let's see. If you really want a track a turn to fascism based on paramilitary/elite corps, you would probably go far back to the (!) Kennedy administration, and the institution of special forces, such as but not limited to the Green Berets. Now we seem to have whole collections of such people. Let's rattle off just a few that come to mind:

Delta Force
CIA
NSA
Army Rangers
Green Berets
SWAT teams
ATF

That's all I can think of right now.

[Axis Kast]

Do you actually mean to tell me that you subscribe to theories that rank the Central Intelligence Agency or Special Weapons and Tactics units as “paramilitary” from anything but semantics’ point of view? You don’t mean to incriminate those organizations as the American equivalent of Squadristi, of course. Right?

SWAT teams were first developed during the late 1970s as far as I’m aware – primarily to face more numerous and better-armed criminals in the Los Angeles inner city that police could no longer curb.

Army Rangers have existed as an elite unit since the Second World War when “first-line” troops were necessary to carry out multiple activities at the leading spearhead of an advancing army.

The Green Berets were an outgrowth of the “combat advisers” of the Vietnam era; men trained to spend long periods of time in enemy territory performing the duties of “pathfinder” units we’ve seen paralleled or predated in the Special Air and Boat Services, South African Reconnaissance, and Rhodesian Selous Scouts.

The Central Intelligence Agency gathers information on various targets overseas and is this country’s foreign intelligence service. Where do you see paramilitary shadows?

[Sea Skimmer]

Yeah, but... let's see. If you really want a track a turn to fascism based on paramilitary/elite corps, you would probably go far back to the (!) Kennedy administration, and the institution of special forces, such as but not limited to the Green Berets. Now we seem to have whole collections of such people. Let's rattle off just a few that come to mind:

Delta Force

Part of the US Army

CIA

Overseas intelligence service that fields little in the way of armed men and hasn't since the Korean war.

NSA

They break codes moron

Army Rangers

How exactly is a US Army unit formed in WW2 paramilitary?

Green Berets

How exactly is a US Army unit formed in the 1960's paramilitary?

SWAT teams

So now police officers who train to use weapons larger then handguns are paramilitary?

ATF

Look, police who enforce federal laws! Your just an idiot if you think you can compare a single one of these to the SA or SS.

[Axis Kast]

Are the Green Berets still around? Haven't heard much about 'em lately.

[Sea Skimmer]

Are the Green Berets still around? Haven't heard much about 'em lately.

Yes. But that name is little used now and was only ever a nick name anyway. They are simply the US Army Special Forces, and they have been very heavily involved in Afghanistan and Iraq. You have heard about them I'm sure, most news reports that mention US Special Forces are referring to them. The guys on house back calling in B-52s in Afghanistan and the teams with the Kurds for example.

[Perinquus]

Yeah, but... let's see. If you really want a track a turn to fascism based on paramilitary/elite corps, you would probably go far back to the (!) Kennedy administration, and the institution of special forces, such as but not limited to the Green Berets. Now we seem to have whole collections of such people. Let's rattle off just a few that come to mind:

Delta Force
CIA
NSA
Army Rangers
Green Berets
SWAT teams
ATF

That's all I can think of right now.

Hmm... let's see... Any of these groups formed independently of the military? Only SWAT teams, the ATF, and the NSA. Have they been given primacy over the military? No. They are not now, nor have they ever been miltary outfits. They perform completely separate and disimilar functions, unlike the SS, which was a rival organization to the German Heer (army), and did the same job, and competed with the Heer for resources and manpower.

And as for the other groups, they are not paramilitary, they are military. Were they organized separate from the army, as the SS was, and later rose to become a rival to it? No, they were formed within the military, and all remain part of it, except the CIA. But even that was formed within the military at first, since it's basically an extension of the wartime OSS.

A final ingredient missing is political ideology. To get into the SS you had to swear an oath of loyalty to the Fuehrer - not the German government, the German nation, the German people, or anything else, but to the Fuehrer personally. You had to espouse the Nazi party's political ideology, or at least publicly pay lip service to it. This is a significant characteristic of these fascist paramilitary groups - this requirement that one be politically and ideologically reliable. Where is this requirement for membership in any of the organizations you named?

You are attempting to compare very disimilar things in order to make a very ham-handed and inaccurate comparison of the current American government to a fascist government.