Matrix Reloaded Discussion [Spoilers, Matrix Reloaded]

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On topic: Matrix Reloaded>The Matrix

....IMO, obviously.

[D.Turtle]

This is from another forum - I don't have the game (yet) so I can't say anything about its validity:
"I guess no one has read my post or played through the Enter the Matrix game, because if they had there would be no more speculation that the zion real world is another matrix.

The oracle said that Neo touched the source and now part of him is trapped between the two realities and the only one that can save him is Trinity."

[Enricko]

Not really.

The Matrix would still be flawed, and ultimately require rebooting. Zion and the resistance acts as the motivator for making the integral anomaly (the One) reinsert the code to restart the prime program. In essence, sending the "Sentinel Army" to eradicate Zion is the same thing as purging it. Since the Matrix restarts anyway, the affect is the same--just the false reality is retained for force the One to restart the Matrix. Otherwise the anomaly will still degrade and ultimately destroy the system.

What you just said was the center plot of Reloaded, but it doesn't require a second layer of the Matrix with a simulated Zion.

Think about the connnection theory.

It requires that Neo's plugs somehow turn into I/O transmitters and that he can unconsciously send commands through the Matrix, and to the other machine computers that will then simply relay it to the Sentinels--and somehow self-destruct them such that it looks like they ran into a wall of TK from the One. All by conincidence.

There are so many ludicrious unknowns and assumptions I don't know where to begin.

Well, if there's so many unknown, making the assumption that there is a second layer to the Matrix is also futile and ludicrous.

Take this example: We've not been explained how Neo is able to fly. We can only suppose that he has the willpower to do so. He could have transmitted the overload command directly to the sentinels.

You mentioned TK ability. Well, where does that new power come from? You base your assumption of a second Matrix on the fact that Neo seems to influence the Real World like he influences the Matrix, but Neo never used TK abilities to kill enemies dead in their tracks in the Matrix. We see Neo flying, binding spoons and pulling knifes from a walldisplay, but never do we see him doing a Jedi "Force Push"!

[Enforcer Talen]

he blocks bullets - isnt what he did to the sentinels the same principal?

[Enricko]

he blocks bullets - isnt what he did to the sentinels the same principal?

Oops! Forgot about that. But still, it would have been really cool to see Neo able to stop and zapp a bunch of Smiths in the endless CGI brawl... You know, that power was a surprise for the Merovingian ("...your predecessors were more respectful!"). Either that program never had to fight the other "Ones" or it's a new trick in Neo's version.

[Lord_Xerxes]

This is from another forum - I don't have the game (yet) so I can't say anything about its validity:
"I guess no one has read my post or played through the Enter the Matrix game, because if they had there would be no more speculation that the zion real world is another matrix.

The oracle said that Neo touched the source and now part of him is trapped between the two realities and the only one that can save him is Trinity."

I already brought up Enter the Matrix and this part of it in my post about the trailer at the end of the game. However, you misquoted. She says Neo is "trapped between the two worlds" not realities, and it makes a difference. It doesn't infer that there is a second Matrix.

MKSheppard wrote:
When a program starts giving you errors, and threatens to corrupt your
system, you just open up Task Manager and End Process.

Neo started that entire error sequence the moment he told the Architecht
to essentially fuck off and saved Trinity instead of rebooting Zion.

If Zion was really a 2nd Matrix why didn't the machines just halt that
application the moment Neo walked out the door to save Trinity,
and pulled out their Zion Backup CDs to start the seventh Zion?

Excellent post, MK. And also, it's the most pertinent. If infact we are to go along with the theory that the real world is actually a second Matrix, then it would be their only logical and valid option of completely resetting Zion. Why? Because the source is destroyed. It blew up. There cannot be Neo making the choice over again...unless they delete Zion and reboot. Furthermore, even if the Source did not blow up, it still wouldn't work if the reality was all "just a sham to continue to try and convince Neo to reset Zion again". Why? Because in "Enter the Matrix" the Keymaker specifically states that the key will only work once, and once it does, it cannot be used again. Period. There is no going to the source a second time. Therefore, the only way to reset Zion validly would be to press CTRL ALT DEL, close Zion.exe, and reinstall Zion.exe

Because the One HAS to reboot the Matrix.

Didn't you listen to what you posted. If he walked back into the Matrix there would be a fatal system crash that'd kill everyone connected to the Matrix.

Perhaps that's what we're seeing here? Perhaps the Sentinels being stopped isn't really Neo stopping them. The entire system, be it the Matrix, and the Machines that work with it and for it, including the sentinels are now glitching because Neo did not step through that other door and reset everything. He's standing there, holding up his hand, and they recieve and error because he isn't supposed to be there.

[Lord_Xerxes]

How does this prove that the Matrix mainframe controls all the machines? It just means that the Agent programs can post requests for backup in the real world from the Sentinels.

How could they if the machines were not somehow connected to the Matrix? The Agents could send requests until the cows came home, and the sentinels would never recieve them unless they themselves have some direct connection to the Matrix, or are connected to a mainframe that is, which in either case, they are still connected via a means.

Think about the connnection theory.

It requires that Neo's plugs somehow turn into I/O transmitters and that he can unconsciously send commands through the Matrix, and to the other machine computers that will then simply relay it to the Sentinels--and somehow self-destruct them such that it looks like they ran into a wall of TK from the One. All by conincidence.

There are so many ludicrious unknowns and assumptions I don't know where to begin.

You find this any less ludricious than a progam being able to download into a human brain that has no mechanical data storage device that we know of, but rather a non-mechanical one? And then be able to overide that person's will and assume control of their body.

Both items work on the premise that as Agent Smith says, a part of him mix with Neo, and vice versa. Although we do not know the specific processes invovled, Smith has taken some of Neo's humanity, and Neo has taken some of Smith's program. And in doing so, this has connected both parties to both worlds and the same time. I will once again note that Neo's latent abilities only show up in the real world until after Smith downloads into Bane, thus establishing the dual connection (he is present in both worlds). I believe that this is inherent of Neo's ablities in the real world. His connection is based on Smith being connected to both planes at the same time, and therefore connected to Smith in some way.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The idea that plugs turn into I/O transmitters which instantly can send authorized self-destruct codes to specific Sentinels through the Matrix and out to the local Sentinel control system, and all in the correct format and such is something I have no words to describe.

And Smith is now a rogue program--he isn't an Agent and doesn't have control/authority in the Matrix system as he did before. So that's irrelevent.

[Lord_Xerxes]

The idea that plugs turn into I/O transmitters which instantly can send authorized self-destruct codes to specific Sentinels through the Matrix and out to the local Sentinel control system, and all in the correct format and such is something I have no words to describe.

And Smith is now a rogue program--he isn't an Agent and doesn't have control/authority in the Matrix system as he did before. So that's irrelevent.

I'm not refering to Smith's control at all. I'm refering to his connection to the Matrix. What I meant was that if Smith is present in the real world, and present in the Matrix, thereby being connected to it in some form, that Neo is somehow connected to the Matrix through Smith. He is like a cable modem, connecting your computer to the internet.

Is it that far fetched that there is some wireless connection, despite the fact that the Neb was able to find Neo using a trace program pill within the Matrix to find his disposed of body in the real world? Perhaps there are appartus that the Machines have installed to the humans that we are not aware of.

[Drooling Iguana]

Well, there's already a couple of AI/program that act like humans, like the Oracle loving candies and the Merovangian loving a good blow job. If we are to believe these programs to be really sentients and are capable of love, jalousy, empathy and fear, what separates a human mind from an AI mind seems pretty thin.

But from the Smith/Bane example, the Matrix can mold the human brain to give a different personality.

Did anyone else notice that the Oracle's candies looked a lot like Red Pills?

[Enforcer Talen]

its been mentioned - why dont the machines just do a ctrl alt del on zion, if its fake - why send all its millions of machines?

if zion is fake, as suggested by the end scene, then the various machines are also trapped in the matrix. my theory is that they are unable to press ctrl alt del cuz they dont know they are in a second matrix. smith, for example, didnt know about the previous 6 matrixes, he just wanted to get free with zion's death. but its already been destroyed - shouldnt be free?

Im thinking, a matrix restarts around them too - which would involve a third party, the architect and perhaps others, who imprison humanity and lesser machines both. the prophecy could be viewed as their escape from the set of matrixes.

[Illuminatus Primus]

its been mentioned - why dont the machines just do a ctrl alt del on zion, if its fake - why send all its millions of machines?

if zion is fake, as suggested by the end scene, then the various machines are also trapped in the matrix. my theory is that they are unable to press ctrl alt del cuz they dont know they are in a second matrix. smith, for example, didnt know about the previous 6 matrixes, he just wanted to get free with zion's death. but its already been destroyed - shouldnt be free?

Im thinking, a matrix restarts around them too - which would involve a third party, the architect and perhaps others, who imprison humanity and lesser machines both. the prophecy could be viewed as their escape from the set of matrixes.

Err---the machines would simply be mathematical/computer constructs if Zion is part of the Matrix--they're needed to maintain the facade and bring/force the One to return to the Source.

[Steven Snyder]

After watching Reloaded, I have a few thoughts on the matter which I will now disseminate.

There is not a "Matrix within a Matrix", instead there are two independant Matrices linked together. The City Matrix is the main unit that is designed to keep the majority of the populace occupied, the Zion Matrix was created to catch and detain the small percentage of the population who would figure out the truth and rebel. On a regular interval the Enemy resets the Zion matrix, thus killing all the rebels.
Neo is an unwilling participant in this cycle, he is manipulated along a pre-ordained path which leads to the resetting of the Zion matrix.
But perhaps most disturbing is that the Machines are just another illusion of the Matrix, and the real enemy hasn't yet been revealed.

Let's go through a few points here...

Neo

Mr. Anderson is the fabled "The One" and is the hero of the movie. Within the Matrix he has near diety-level powers and is virtually unstoppable. Outside of the Matrix he is just a pale-skinned human with plugs adorning his body, just another human. At least this is how we left him at the end of the first movie.

Nightmares...
In Reloaded Mr. Anderson is plagued by horrible, yet very vivid nightmares. The nightmares are from the City Matrix and contain images that are yet to come or are from the present. But how is this possible? Neo isn't anything special outside The Matrix, and even if he was he isn't hardwired into anything so it would be impossible for him to communicate with it.
Moreover the images that he is receiving are not just a random jumble from the City Matrix, they are very important and just right on time. Why then is he getting them?
Because the City Matrix is feeding them to him in order to control him. Neo made the decision he did at the Source because of that dream he had, had he not had the dream he would not have known about Trinity. It is through that dream that the Enemy can control him.

New Powers...
Neo demonstrated two very important powers in this movie that will come up later as important. The first is that he 'revived' Trinity by his very will alone, the second is that he destroyed some Machines by a mechanism that reminds us very much with the powers he has in the Matrix.

Neo healed Trinity, but remember it really wasn't Trinity, only an image of her. Trinity was lying dead on a table in the 'real world' and Neo's powers only extend to the Matrix. Neo cannot heal someone in the 'real world' so why was he able to heal Trinity?

Neo also destroyed two Sentinels by his will alone, very similar to his Matrix stunts. Again, his powers don't extend to the 'real world', so how did he do this? He realized he was still in the Matrix, just a different one.

Trinity

We first met Trinity in the original Matrix movie. She is an attractive woman who almost immediately falls in love with our hero, Neo. She is smart, capable, and a strong believer in Neo and actually saved his life with a kiss.

With the exception of the first line, I believe all of the above paragraph is a lie.

It is my belief that Trinity is not a real individual, but a program, not unlike the Oracle. She was created by the Enemy for the express purpose of controlling Neo, it is her influence that allows the Enemy to manipulate Neo and control his actions.

Don't believe me, keep reading...

In the first movie Trinity ressurected Neo by a kiss...Let's make sure we understand that. Neo is dead, Trinity kisses Neo and Neo is alive again. THIS IS NOT FRELLING SNOW WHITE HERE! A kiss isn't going to bring anyone back from the grave.
Trinity healed Neo in much the same fashion as Neo healed Trinity in reloaded. It worked because on both occasions they were both in the Matrix and you can bend laws like this.
Why did she heal him, because he died too early and he had much more to do, they had to bring him back so that he could complete his task.

It is Neo's love for Trinity that allows him to be controlled, by her and the Matrix. Neo would never intentionally let Trinity die, and the Enemy knows this. They knew he could only make one decision at the source, and it's the same decision he has made each time he has been there.

Trinity is nothing more than a tool of the Matrix, hell she might even be the mother of it...we are told the Oracle isn't.

The Counselman

Remember the scene where Neo and the Counselman were at the bowels of the city looking at the machines. It was asked how one controls the other, and Neo said that it is because the humans could just smash the machines. The Counselman told Neo that if they did that, how would they live? This is an intentional lesson to Neo, warning him that the creators of the Matrix need the humans just as much as the humans in the Matrix need the creators to survive. They are a symbiotic being now, if one dies so does the other.

The Source

It seems just about everything that the Architect told Neo has turned out to be true...he just failed to mention that Zion is also in a Matrix. All that stuff about Zion being destroyed and rebuilt, about the survivors being selected and such...It is all so much easier if Zion is actually another Matrix, they just reset it. And of course Neo get's to select the survivors.

Zion

The last supposed human refuge in the world...it does sound unlikely that humans couldn't have found anywhere else to hid doesn't it? But that seems to be the case, at least on the surface.

Zion is a busy place where you really don't have a lot of free time. It is designed to be this way, it is designed to keep the rebels occupied. The machines digging is just another way to distract them.

The Enemy

No I don't mean the Machines. If you have been paying close attention, there is absolutely ZERO reason to believe that the Machines are anything but nasty programs within the Zion Matrix to keep the humans occupied. The fields of pods that are maintained by the Machines, they are just another illusion of the Zion Matrix. Remember, when we actually saw the Architect, he appeared to be human...not a machine. Though there is no reason for him to mask his appearance.

The Agents...just programs.
The Sentinels...more programs.

I think the truth is much more terrible than we have been shown. It is my theory that humanity was faced with a terrible energy crisis and they reacted in the only way they could...they created the Matrix. Now they are stuck with it, they can't turn it off without destroying themselves.

[Stravo]

After watching Reloaded, I have a few thoughts on the matter which I will now disseminate.



Trinity

We first met Trinity in the original Matrix movie. She is an attractive woman who almost immediately falls in love with our hero, Neo. She is smart, capable, and a strong believer in Neo and actually saved his life with a kiss.

With the exception of the first line, I believe all of the above paragraph is a lie.

It is my belief that Trinity is not a real individual, but a program, not unlike the Oracle. She was created by the Enemy for the express purpose of controlling Neo, it is her influence that allows the Enemy to manipulate Neo and control his actions.

Don't believe me, keep reading...

In the first movie Trinity ressurected Neo by a kiss...Let's make sure we understand that. Neo is dead, Trinity kisses Neo and Neo is alive again. THIS IS NOT FRELLING SNOW WHITE HERE! A kiss isn't going to bring anyone back from the grave.
Trinity healed Neo in much the same fashion as Neo healed Trinity in reloaded. It worked because on both occasions they were both in the Matrix and you can bend laws like this.
Why did she heal him, because he died too early and he had much more to do, they had to bring him back so that he could complete his task.

It is Neo's love for Trinity that allows him to be controlled, by her and the Matrix. Neo would never intentionally let Trinity die, and the Enemy knows this. They knew he could only make one decision at the source, and it's the same decision he has made each time he has been there.

Trinity is nothing more than a tool of the Matrix, hell she might even be the mother of it...we are told the Oracle isn't.

Trinity IS human. Remember what the Architect said - the main difference between Neo and the previous 5 versions was that Neo was in love the others were not. This is vital to differentiate Neo from the others. Part of making Neo unique and heroic is simple. In the first movie he is segragated from the other humans in the end by the fact that he is the one.

In reloaded we are introduced to an added wrinkle. Neo is/was not the ONLY ONE. So therefore he's not really that different. Howvere the Bros. introduce Trinity as the thing that makes him different than the others. Remember that much of the First Matrix is a simple retelling of the hero's journey and part of teh hero's journey is the hero discovering something unique about himself. What makes Neo unique among the various versions of the One. His love for Trinity.

As to her kissing him bringing him back not being Snow White....that was the whole point, the power of true love. We may scoff at it but that is the message I got from Trinity just as Neo bringing her back...it was true love, besides, every Messiah needs to bring someone back from the dead.

I disagree that Trinity is just another program.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Neo chose the wrong door. Great control there.

[Enricko]

Well, the Architect is trying to control Neo. If we dismiss the possibility that the Machines want Humanity dead but cannot due to a programming similar to Asimov's Laws, Neo must willingly enter the Source to free a group that will become the core for a new Zion. Sure, we only have the word of the Architect, but it's because of his love for Trinity that Neo is willing to sacrifice the humans still plugged in the Matrix.

No control is perfect.

For those who believe in a second matrix, can you tell us where the fun (and logic) in that? If 0.1 % of humans cannot accept the Matrix (first layer), how come they can accept the second without doubting the tangibility of Zion? And what about the humans that aren't born in the (first layer) Matrix? Those who live a stressful, but decent life in Zion? If humans truly feel the Matrix to be false, why haven't we heard about them complaining? Is it only in the first layer that humans feel that something is odd?

From my humble point of view, the trilogy is perfect with only one layer of Matrix. Apart from Neo zapping power and precognition while unplugged, nothing really hint at a second layer. Sure, for a single layer to work, supernatural phenomenons have to be true magic (be it the power of love). But that wouldn't be a first in a sci-fi movie...

That love can do magical things (the precognition was about
Trinity, the zapping was to protect Trinity) doesn't bother me as an explanation.

[Illuminatus Primus]

For those who believe in a second matrix, can you tell us where the fun (and logic) in that? If 0.1 % of humans cannot accept the Matrix (first layer), how come they can accept the second without doubting the tangibility of Zion? And what about the humans that aren't born in the (first layer) Matrix? Those who live a stressful, but decent life in Zion? If humans truly feel the Matrix to be false, why haven't we heard about them complaining? Is it only in the first layer that humans feel that something is odd?

A lot less than .1% of humans do not except the program. Zion has only 250,000 people. A large percentage of that is naturally born humans.

They're constantly busy between fighting a war and convienced they've escaped control. The LAST thing they'd expect is another layer.

Furthermore--a tiny few do realize it. Neo started to. And some of the children and gifted individuals do (the boy with the spoon).

[Dargos]

Just a little more "evidence" for those who subscribe to the "Matrix in the Matrix" theory.

While Neo is in the Architects "office" you can see in the background on the screens flashbacks of Neos life. Some of those scenes of his life shown on the screens are of Neo in the "Real World" from the first Matrix movie. The question is how the Architect would have visual historical files of what Neo went through in the "Real World"? Four posible answers are
1. There is a Matrix within a Matrix and the Architect has access to them both.
2. The Architect is able to download memories of any humans entering the Matrix.
3. Neo is a program created by the Architect and so he has total access to all expereances the Program goes thru.

or

4. The movie creators screwed up showing those scenes in the background thinking most people would ignore the screens.

just my 2 cents

[D.Turtle]

Or maybe there is some sort of connection between the machines and the escapees from the Matrix even when not plugged in.

After all, this is the sixth Zion. Zion is NOT secret. The machines probably BUILT Zion for the escapees.

The Machines know that some people dont accept the Matrix and escape from it. Is it so implausible for them to retain some type of connection to the Matrix/Machines when not directly connected to the Matrix?

[Sir Sirius]

Sorry if this has been asked before, but I don't have the time to read the entire thread right now.

Why did Neo believe the Architect?
I mean he though he was about to save Zion, not to mention the entire mankind by fullfilling the prophesy. Just as he about to achief that he encounters some old geezer who basically tells him that walking through that door won't save Zion or deliver mankind from the clutches of the machines, he then tells him that Trinity is about to die, Neo appereantly beliefs every word he says and rushes off to save Trinity. Why on Earth did he do that?

I seriously believed all through out the Architecht scene that the guy is trying to save the Matrix from destruction by lying through his teeth. Makes sense kinda of, everything else the AIs through at Neo and Co. had failed to stop them, last recourse - try and bluff your way out of it.

I don't know whether or not the Architect was telling the truth, I just don't understand why Neo would belief him.

[Rob Wilson]

Believing the Architect or not is irrelevant on the matter of whether the real world is a 'second Matrix'. To affect the Matrix the first time, Neo had to see the world as code and then he saw how to affect it. If the real world were a 'second Matrix', then how come he didn't look around and Say "Shit, we're still in the Matrix, it's all code!", before stopping the Sentinels?

For all we know, all the Plugs are Rf recievers (see any pin connectors in those spikes they plug in? Could those simply be ariels for connecting to the Matrix interfaces on the Hovercraft? For all we know they could have a low level field in place at all times, and now that Neo has a part of Smith in him, he can interpret the presence of nearby AI and direct connect to it over very short distances.

Your only evidence for a 'second Matrix' is that he stopped his attackers in manner that looked the same as his stopping bullets (except i don't remember the sentinals hanging motionless in mid-air), unfortunately if this were another layer of the Matrix, he would instead have flown into them, or blocked their tentacles with kung-fu or thrown a piece of rubble through them, in the same manner he has dealt with other enemies. Unless you can point to a place where he used his Powers to stop a charging enemy before in the film?

Your only evidence for a 'second Matrix' is a manifestation of powers unlike those when he's in the Matrix... not exactly compelling. And again there is no reason to stop the Machines simply Deleting Zion if it's simply a Programme. After all, if it's a programme there's nothing to stop them starting it again with new candidates, and waiting for a new One to come along and perform the reboot, there's simply no gain to keeping the present rogue One around as he's a danger to them.


On a seperate note, if you need special keys to get into the Backdoor area, how did Smith (rogue agent and not given the access of the legitimate ones) able to get back there? Also why would an Agent need access to that area when they can get anywhere by possessing a person in the locale they desire to reach?

[Sir Sirius]

Believing the Architect or not is irrelevant on the matter of whether the real world is a 'second Matrix'.

I wasn't talking about that.

[Rob Wilson]

Believing the Architect or not is irrelevant on the matter of whether the real world is a 'second Matrix'.

I wasn't talking about that.

That's good, because I wasn't answering you. It was in answer to the general point concerning believing the Architect as a point of believing the real World was real. If you'd read the thread you'd know that

[Illuminatus Primus]

The idea that they are transmitters is utterly bizarre and most of your examples like "he should've automatically have all the same powers" is red herring.

The One we already know is a machine illusion. His powers in the Matrix proper may be a manifestation of the programming inherent to the Matrix proper.

Nevertheless, the Sentinels did freeze as if hitting an invisible wall and hang there shorting out until they simply fell, along with Neo.

Remember the first Matrix? Neo was ALWAYS the One, but it took realization and time to fully grasp his ability. There's no reason to assume he'd automatically grasp the fact that the real world was also a Matrix.

Even if they are recievers, why would he have some sort of built-in computer code commands in his head, and why would he have protocol to just shut down anything. It makes no sense.

Furthermore, why would these emitters make him able to feel incoming Sentinels?

Occam's Razor. Your RF transmitters and "low-level field" are purely unneccessary inventions.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Your only evidence for a 'second Matrix' is a manifestation of powers unlike those when he's in the Matrix... not exactly compelling. And again there is no reason to stop the Machines simply Deleting Zion if it's simply a Programme. After all, if it's a programme there's nothing to stop them starting it again with new candidates, and waiting for a new One to come along and perform the reboot, there's simply no gain to keeping the present rogue One around as he's a danger to them.

You're failing to realize that if the real world is a Matrix, the machines as we know them are part of the Matrix, and are not neccessarily in control.