Why did the Federation outlive the Empire?

[Ubiquitous]

On paper, it should never have happened. The Empire is vastly superior to the Federation in terms on its military, with far inferior exterior enemies to contend with than their Star Trek counterparts. However, even for the Federations comparatively weak military and [federal?] democratic [some would argue Communist, but this is irrelevent] system, their survivability is vastly superior to the Empire's, surviving countless wars to not only retain its pre-eminient position but also continuing to expand, whereas by 700 years after its creation it is not a local Empire, but a galaxy spanning one.

So, what went wrong for the Empire? Why did the most powerful traditional organisation in The Big 3 capitulate so quickly, while the weaker, more fragmented Federation flourished to become such a powerful organisation [debatably by the 29th Century, the greatest the Big Three has ever seen]?

[Tribun]

I would say because of bad storywriting.

Federation is shown always as some sort of Home of the Gods. And because when the Federation would go down, B&B would have no cash cow to milk any more.....

[Ubiquitous]

I would say because of bad storywriting.

Federation is shown always as some sort of Home of the Gods. And because when the Federation would go down, B&B would have no cash cow to milk any more.....

This seems to be a cop-out arguement. The Federation has shown to be corruptable and dark, especially in recent Trek. Just look at the events shown 'In the Pale Moonlight' and 'Extreme Measures', where the extent of S31's antics are revealed. As for the cash-cow, many Trek fans have argued that a series from the pov of the Klingons or [pre-Nemesis] Romulans would have been an excellent idea. The Federation is not vital to Star Trek anymore.

The Empire, on the other hand, is just as central to the SW plot as the Federation, and just as disposable, as the events in ROTJ shown.

However, this debate is about the longevity of the organisations, not of outside politics or trends.

[Anarchist Bunny]

The empire is still around, the Imperial Reminant led by Palleon (IIRC), so this entire thread is worthless.

[JodoForce]

Because the Empire was an evil organization whose purpose in the story was to be overthrown?

Both the Old Republic and the New Republic are more comparable to the Federation than the Empire is.

[Ubiquitous]

The empire is still around, the Imperial Reminant led by Palleon (IIRC), so this entire thread is worthless.

Oh cmon, that's like saying Rome still stands, and thus so does the Roman Empire. The fact that the Empire went from 25,000 ISD's to 200 kind of indicates little downturn in their fortunes ...

[q]Both the Old Republic and the New Republic are more comparable to the Federation than the Empire is.[/q]

The OR is not comparable to the Federation, its so more advanced than the Federation that it isn't funny [just look at how many systems it included compared to the mere hundreds in the 2375 Federation]. As for the NR, I don't ready the NJO series so I do not have the latest information on that, and so can't comment on it.

[JodoForce]

The OR is not comparable to the Federation, its so more advanced than the Federation that it isn't funny [just look at how many systems it included compared to the mere hundreds in the 2375 Federation]. As for the NR, I don't ready the NJO series so I do not have the latest information on that, and so can't comment on it.

Then by your logic the OR is more comparable than either the Empire or the NR, because its level of technology would have been the lowest of the three. Besides, it was

1) the first interplanetary organization described in the SW universe
2) the good guys

both of these things make the OR uniquely comparable to the Federation. (although (2) also applies to NR) And the OR existed for thousands of years, something that the Federation can't dream of matching anytime soon.

[Crazedwraith]

The Empire was held together solely by the emperor's force abillties?

[Darksider]

The Empire was held together solely by the emperor's force abillties?

More like fear of the emperor and vader. After they both died all the ambitious officers took off with their ships and tried to carve out their own empires that's what killed the empire. If there had been no fracture of military and government structure the NR would have been wiped out in it's infancy.

[Solauren]

The Empire was held together solely by the emperor's force abillties?

More like fear of the emperor and vader. After they both died all the ambitious officers took off with their ships and tried to carve out their own empires that's what killed the empire. If there had been no fracture of military and government structure the NR would have been wiped out in it's infancy.

Very True.

Also remember, the Empire had just used alot of resources building Death Star 2, had lost Black Sun as a commerical/industrial resource, and had recently had a large part of there fleet destroyed when Grand Admiral Zaarin decided to try to overthrow the Emperor.

That probably hurt them a little too

Also, combine that with the effect on the populace of knowing Vader and the Emperor were dead, and the rebels had succeeded in an actual military engagement in blowing up a second Death Star.

Then, you had the Nagai/Toff invasion on top of. Plus who knows what Lady Lumiya and Nom Amor did behind the scences

Even if the Emperor and Vader had survived (without the Death Star of course) they might of had a few problems. Mainly a partially ruined fleet from Zaarin's treason and the Nagai/Toff invasion, but nothing they couldn't happen.

(And boy, are the people that don't know much EU going to be asking questions)

[Ghost Rider]

Actually I say it's because how the Emperor formed the Empire solely around him.

When his clone came back he asserted power enough to drive a fledging New republic underground agin indicating he had more then enough power to destroy any upstarts from his Deep Core holdings alone.

In the end the Empire faltered because the Emperor was the center of it all...and without him the New Order degenerates into a great deal of infighting.

[Howedar]

So, what went wrong for the Empire? Why did the most powerful traditional organisation in The Big 3 capitulate so quickly, while the weaker, more fragmented Federation flourished to become such a powerful organisation [debatably by the 29th Century, the greatest the Big Three has ever seen]?

Acts of Plot, of course. That, and totalitarian regimes are traditionally very unstable: a decapitation can destroy the entire government as various factions fight for power.

[Darth Fanboy]

Can we be technical here?

The Empire is a continuation of the old Republic, just under a different name, A republic which has lasted for millenia.

I think of the Empire as a continuation anyway. It makes sense really, it's not like a coup was responsible for it coming into being. Palpatine got into power, declared himself emperor and that was that.

That government, established for thousands upon thousands of years ended when the Rebel Alliance, at the time known as the New Repubic, overthrew Coruscant. If you want to be incrediby picky you can say that the Empire continues on with the Remnant, but its not the same to me.

[Gandalf]

The Empire was held together solely by the emperor's force abillties?

That and duct tape, lots of duct tape.

[Drooling Iguana]

The Force is duct tape! It's got a dark side, a light side, and it binds the Universe togeather.

[Knife]

It would seem the culturaly, the SW civilization is continuing as usual. But as for labels, the Empire failed because it was extremely centralized. The Emperor gobbled all the power and few had any actual authority besides Palpitine. When he died, nobody had the power (either literaly or politicaly) to take over and the galactic Empire bogged down into fiefdoms by Imperial warlords who had enough power to grab a chunk of the empire but not enough to unify the various factions and maintain a large galaxy spanning empire.

You have to remember that the SW galaxy has been in a state of civil war for over 40 years. The clone wars was the begaining of the civil war and it continued up to and passed the Rebel Alliance. The Republic to the Empire to the New Republic, with all the little kingdoms springing up on the side lines to boot.

One could argue that the civil war that Palpatine stirred up to grab power was the inspiration some 20 years later for malcontents to raise up against His goverment. Thus he sowed the seeds of his own destruction (obviously he did the same with Vader too) when he made his bid for power.
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On the other side of the thread, the Federation seems to endure due to adversity. As much as they spew 'love thy neighbor' and 'kum-by-ya' and other peacenik shit, they have been at war for over 100 years. But they have not been at war with themselves (unlike the SW side) rather they have been facing serious opposition from outside their boarders. Luckily for them, they keep winning but another threat arises when the last is conquered.

This would seem to unify the Feds to protect their own shit instead of taking a close look at their own situation. IMO, if the Federation could be at peace for a decade or so, there probably would be a civil war against the commie Fed bastards running the show. And perhaps the Fed power brokers know this and are constantly looking for or antogonising the next 'threat' to maintain their power base.

[Darth Servo]

Why did the most powerful traditional organisation in The Big 3 capitulate so quickly, while the weaker, more fragmented Federation flourished to become such a powerful organisation [debatably by the 29th Century, the greatest the Big Three has ever seen]?

Prove its the same federation. Its impossible to know how many (attempted) revolutions occured in those 700 years.

[Kuja]

Why did the most powerful traditional organisation in The Big 3 capitulate so quickly, while the weaker, more fragmented Federation flourished to become such a powerful organisation [debatably by the 29th Century, the greatest the Big Three has ever seen]?

Prove its the same federation. Its impossible to know how many (attempted) revolutions occured in those 700 years.

That might explain the ever-changing uniforms...

[horatio]

I always took the changing uniforms to be evidence of temporal rifts. Each uniform represents a different time line. With that kind of temporal setting, it's easy to see how the Federation might last an eternity. As far as I know (and I admit, I'm weak on the physics of Star Wars), no such temporal rift is evidenced in SW. If they did have competing time lines, there would certainly be some in which the empire lasted.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The empire is still around, the Imperial Reminant led by Palleon (IIRC), so this entire thread is worthless.

The Imperial Remnant is not the same state as the Galactic Empire.

The Galactic Empire ceased to exist with the death of former Imperial Interim Council Chairman and ersatz "Emperor" Xandel Carivus at the hands of former Royal Guardsman Kir Kanos six and a half years after the Battle of Endor.

[Kurgan]

Nice idea about the uniforms, but contradicted by canon evidence.

In TNG for example, the TOS movie uniforms (the red ones) are shown on occasion, alongside the TNG ones (Dr. Crusher's deceased husband's uniform in a trunk.. her husband's holographic message to his son, and he's wearing his red uniform, etc), this also happens in Voyager (with Tuvok's flashback to the events of ST 6), and then of course there's Ds9 "trials and tribbilations" for the TOS tv uniforms (of course one could argue this was time travel, so it doesn't count).

After TOS (where only Kirk's uniform changed every season), the uniform changes occured about once every season/movie, but we had a stretch with the red uni's (even those have changed slightly, as the Daystrom Institute and other geekier sites proves).

Starfleet has a strong tailoring lobby I guess. ; )

[Admiral Johnason]

Because the Empire was up against the cool Rebel Alliance while the best that could face the Federation was the pussififed Borg.

[Darth Yoshi]

The Force is duct tape! It's got a dark side, a light side, and it binds the Universe togeather.

The Force can't fix everything. Duct tape does.

[horatio]

Nice idea about the uniforms, but contradicted by canon evidence.

In TNG for example, the TOS movie uniforms (the red ones) are shown on occasion, alongside the TNG ones (Dr. Crusher's deceased husband's uniform in a trunk.. her husband's holographic message to his son, and he's wearing his red uniform, etc), this also happens in Voyager (with Tuvok's flashback to the events of ST 6), and then of course there's Ds9 "trials and tribbilations" for the TOS tv uniforms (of course one could argue this was time travel, so it doesn't count).

After TOS (where only Kirk's uniform changed every season), the uniform changes occured about once every season/movie, but we had a stretch with the red uni's (even those have changed slightly, as the Daystrom Institute and other geekier sites proves).

Starfleet has a strong tailoring lobby I guess. ; )

That's true about the red uniforms. I was thinking more about the TNG onward period in Trek history. However, this brings up the dilema posed by the Temporal Cold War in the current crap masquerading as Trek. I suppose the quartermaster was just fikle in the 24th century.

[YT300000]

The Force is duct tape! It's got a dark side, a light side, and it binds the Universe togeather.

The Force can't fix everything. Duct tape does.

It fixes everything except for stupidity. We tried to duct-tape Sovereign's head, but it didn't work.