AQ Fleet Size

[Oddity]

I am trying to figure out what the fleet size of the Federation, the Klingons and the Romulans is (I think it has been done before, but I couldn't find the thread)

From Tacking Into the Wind we know that the Dominion-Cardassian-Breen alliance fields 30,000 ships combined. For the AQ alliance to put up a fight they must have had something very close to this. Let's say 20% fewer ships (24,000). If we split this number evenly we end up with 8000 ships to each of the three powers.

However, from a TNG episode (don't remember it's name, it's the one where Worf is on trial) we know that the Federation-Klingon alliance is the only thing that keeps the Romulans in check.

So if we give the Romulans half of the ships, and split the remainder equally between the Federation and Klingons we get this:

Romulan Star Empire: 12,000 ships.
Klingon Empire: 6000 ships.
United Federation of Planets: 6000 ships.

How am I doing so far?

[Alyeska]

I am trying to figure out what the fleet size of the Federation, the Klingons and the Romulans is (I think it has been done before, but I couldn't find the thread)

From Tacking Into the Wind we know that the Dominion-Cardassian-Breen alliance fields 30,000 ships combined. For the AQ alliance to put up a fight they must have had something very close to this. Let's say 20% fewer ships (24,000). If we split this number evenly we end up with 8000 ships to each of the three powers.

However, from a TNG episode (don't remember it's name, it's the one where Worf is on trial) we know that the Federation-Klingon alliance is the only thing that keeps the Romulans in check.

So if we give the Romulans half of the ships, and split the remainder equally between the Federation and Klingons we get this:

Romulan Star Empire: 12,000 ships.
Klingon Empire: 6000 ships.
United Federation of Planets: 6000 ships.

How am I doing so far?

You need to take multiple things into account. First of all, you need to account for the Romulans having mostly larger ships. If the Romulans had 12,000 Warbirds they could roll over the Federation and Klingons with ease. Now you also have to take things from DS9 into account. The Federation stated that they would force the Romulans to concede to Bajoran wishes or else. The Federation had the force to back their will. Furthermore, the Federation was able to fight a stalled out war against the Klingons and come out the better of the two.

Now, lets go with that 30,000 Dominion ally number.

The Breen were never large and the Cardassians have taken losses. Figure 15,000 Dominion ships, 8,000-9,000 Breen ships, and 6,000-7,000 Cardassian ships.

Now, lets look at the FKR Alliance. The Federation is the strongest member, but they also have the most varied fleet. We will go with the 12,000 number that Berman gave. The Romulans probably have about 8,000 ships. Those are heavy ships. The only advantage the Federation has is their fighters. The Klingons are probably 8,000 ships but they have small to large. Thats 28,000 against an enemy with 30,000 and major planetary defenses. That is a fair estimation of forces.

[Oddity]

Ah, didn't know the Romulan ships were mostly heavy. And I forgot the Berman quote.

[Dark Primus]

Since Federation cover more space then the Klingons and the Romulans it is more likely they would have more ships then the either two. But more ships doesn't always means its stronger. Romulans put more resources building large heavier ships while the Feds and Klingons concentrates on few large and more on medium size and escorts.

[Gandalf]

Didn't Way of the Warrior say that 500 ships was 1/3 of the Klingon defense force(or something like that)?

Also, wasn't the 1500 ships the Klingons had on the border toward the end of the Dominion War supposed to be a major portion?

Sorry I haven't seen these eps in a while.

[Alyeska]

Didn't Way of the Warrior say that 500 ships was 1/3 of the Klingon defense force(or something like that)?

Also, wasn't the 1500 ships the Klingons had on the border toward the end of the Dominion War supposed to be a major portion?

Sorry I haven't seen these eps in a while.

1,500 was all they could refit in short notice. In WotW we don't actualy hear how many ships they have sent IIRC.

[seanrobertson]

Didn't Way of the Warrior say that 500 ships was 1/3 of the Klingon defense force(or something like that)?

Also, wasn't the 1500 ships the Klingons had on the border toward the end of the Dominion War supposed to be a major portion?

Sorry I haven't seen these eps in a while.

1,500 was all they could refit in short notice. In WotW we don't actualy hear how many ships they have sent IIRC.

That's right. We're only told that the "first wave consists of well over 100 ships." That was at least partly determined by DS9's scans of the faux-Martok's fleet, which was problematic given that it kept cloaking.

(Btw, a quick tip of my hat to you for recent events, Alyeska.)

[seanrobertson]

I am trying to figure out what the fleet size of the Federation, the Klingons and the Romulans is (I think it has been done before, but I couldn't find the thread)

From Tacking Into the Wind we know that the Dominion-Cardassian-Breen alliance fields 30,000 ships combined. For the AQ alliance to put up a fight they must have had something very close to this. Let's say 20% fewer ships (24,000). If we split this number evenly we end up with 8000 ships to each of the three powers.

However, from a TNG episode (don't remember it's name, it's the one where Worf is on trial) we know that the Federation-Klingon alliance is the only thing that keeps the Romulans in check.

So if we give the Romulans half of the ships, and split the remainder equally between the Federation and Klingons we get this:

Romulan Star Empire: 12,000 ships.
Klingon Empire: 6000 ships.
United Federation of Planets: 6000 ships.

How am I doing so far?

Not bad, though as Alyeska said, I'd definitely reason that the Klingons and Federation have many more ships than the Romulans.

Keeping the Romulans in check might not be a simple matter of numerical equality. There are other factors in play, such as the size of the three powers' respective territories, speed of all their warp drives, and the always historically relevant issue of fronts: even with a superior military, fighting a war on two or more fronts is usually a bad idea.

Of course, the Romulans don't seem to have a superior military anyway... in the "future" we see in "All Good Things," the Klingons conquered Romulus.

More likely than not, "keeping the Romulans in check" meant that the Klingons and Federation together were overwhelmingly stronger than the RSE, as to make an offensive from the latter far too costly to even consider.

[TheDarkling]

That is my take on it as well, the federation could probably win a protracted war with the Romulans and could likely match them at the outset but the Romulans knowing the Federation like to settle things could annex a system or 3 have a brief skirmish then have the Feds give them concessions at the negotiating table.

With the Klingons involved the Romulans annex a few system get hit from two fronts plus they are heavily out numbered and they then stand to lose far more than they could gain in forcing a Federation negotiation which will be a lot more difficult anyway given the huge advantage that the Fed/Klingon alliance would enjoy.

The Federation/Klingon alliance is less about winning a potential war and more about making sure the Romulans realises they can't push the Feds to far without facing a war they cannot win or even come out ahead in.

[WhiteStarPrime]

For Star Trek ship stuff a general rule is


The Federation has better ships (general more flexible)
The Klingons have more ships
The Romulans have bigger ships

[NecronLord]

Not bad, though as Alyeska said, I'd definitely reason that the Klingons and Federation have many more ships than the Romulans.

I would agree there. However a D'deridex seems to be massively superior to any other AQ ship in terms of armament.

Keeping the Romulans in check might not be a simple matter of numerical equality. There are other factors in play, such as the size of the three powers' respective territories, speed of all their warp drives, and the always historically relevant issue of fronts: even with a superior military, fighting a war on two or more fronts is usually a bad idea.

They also probably have superior tactial abilities, not being vikings and not being and better ground forces (given the fact that you can actually aim a romulan pesonal disruptor.)

Of course, the Romulans don't seem to have a superior military anyway... in the "future" we see in "All Good Things," the Klingons conquered Romulus.

In the alternate present in 'yesterday's enterprise' they were about to conquer the Federation. Though generally the feds are considered to be a superior force when they get going.

Hell going by Q illusions, Picard is able to defeat, with no practise or experience, Guy of Gisborne, who is supposedly the best swordsman in northern england.

More likely than not, "keeping the Romulans in check" meant that the Klingons and Federation together were overwhelmingly stronger than the RSE, as to make an offensive from the latter far too costly to even consider.

I wouldn't say overwhelmingly, but considerably.

[Dark Primus]

Of course, the Romulans don't seem to have a superior military anyway... in the "future" we see in "All Good Things," the Klingons conquered Romulus.

Thats an alternative universe. After the Dominion war the Klingons are in no shape to fight another war for at least a decade.

In the alternate present in 'yesterday's enterprise' they were about to conquer the Federation. Though generally the feds are considered to be a superior force when they get going.

That is also an alternative universe and that war started 15 or so years before the first Galaxy class came into service. The Klingons probably had a more advance fleet at the time, and they also have the cloak which the feds can not scan through which gives the klingons a tactical advantage. And we don't know what shape the Feds were in 20 years in the past when Enterprise C was in service.

[seanrobertson]

I would agree there. However a D'deridex seems to be massively superior to any other AQ ship in terms of armament.

During TNG, absolutely. Some of the newer Starfleet and Klingon designs we see oughta be able to whip one--say, a Sovereign, Prometheus, or Negh'Var.

But as the main-line, mass-produced warship, it's definitely numero uno.

They also probably have superior tactial abilities, not being vikings and not being and better ground forces (given the fact that you can actually aim a romulan pesonal disruptor.)

Yes.

They're pretty much as sneaky, or sneakier than, the Cardassians...and we know from "Soldiers of the Empire" that the Klingons frequently fell into Cardie traps.

In the alternate present in 'yesterday's enterprise' they were about to conquer the Federation. Though generally the feds are considered to be a superior force when they get going.

Perhaps. But then, they had about two decades to get rolling against the Klingons, and they were still getting their asses kicked.

Hell going by Q illusions, Picard is able to defeat, with no practise or experience, Guy of Gisborne, who is supposedly the best swordsman in northern england.

Picard was a fencer, but yeah...that doesn't flush.

All I can really say to that is the Robinhood illusion was much more transparent to Picard and his crew; Q obviously made little effort at creating that diversion, as he could've read a book and come up with essentially the same thing (if not better...he definitely abbreviated the story).

The AGT stuff, OTOH, seemed pretty elaborate. He seemed determined to keep the illusion very convincing, such that Picard treated it like a life or death situation. I think if it was terribly out-of-whack for the Klingons to conquer the RSE, he probably wouldn't have come up with that twist...it would've been just as easy to have Warbirds shooting at Pasteur rather than Voodieh attack cruisers.

The whole comparative strength of the FKR is one of the more difficult things to pin down in Trek, to be sure.

[seanrobertson]

Thats an alternative universe. After the Dominion war the Klingons are in no shape to fight another war for at least a decade.

It could well be entirely fake, but ten years after the Dominion War would be 2387-88. IIRC, the events of "AGT" took place in 2394 or thereabouts. That's still plenty of time for the Klingons to hit them hard and fast if they really made their minds up.

It doesn't really matter. The main reason I brought that up is that I figured Q added that detail as verisimilitude. Typically, though, that entails believability.

I'd focus more on the next tidbit:

That is also an alternative universe and that war started 15 or so years before the first Galaxy class came into service. The Klingons probably had a more advance fleet at the time, and they also have the cloak which the feds can not scan through which gives the klingons a tactical advantage. And we don't know what shape the Feds were in 20 years in the past when Enterprise C was in service.

To nitpick, it was an alternate timeline, not an alternate universe. By all indications, it was the very same "reality" up until the events at Narendra III, in either 2344 or 2346 (?).

We don't know the condition of the Federation at that time, per se, but we don't know the condition of the Klingons either. We can only really say that neither'd been in any major wars, with the Cardassian conflict still down the road and the Romulans largely in isolation. IMO, there's no reason to assume the Federation must've been in some compromised position, any moreso than they were when the Borg first hit them in the "proper" timeline of 2366-67.

It's true, the GCS hadn't been rolled out yet, but the Klingons weren't exactly sporting a ton of powerful designs at the time either. During TNG, the Vor'cha seemed to be a very new design, as indicated by the fact that we saw all of maybe two reps of that class out of dozens of Klingon ships in many different episodes. That'd leave them to their large Birds-of-Prey type cruisers, assuming they existed at the time of course, or a K'T'inga variant...neither of which seem particularly cutting edge next to an Ambassador.

So, if anything, I'd say the Federation had the technological edge on the Klingons at that point. (What else is new.)

Cloaking devices and the like are a big advantage, as you said...but I don't see how that runs contrary to Klingon superiority in general. To date, the Feds are still hard-pressed to scan cloaking devices. Without prior knowledge of a cloaked ship in the area ("Nemesis"), a starship can probably still be caught by surprise.

Besides, I wasn't really suggesting that the most up-to-date UFP be compared to what we last heard of the KE. Rather, how do the two compare when they haven't incurred massive losses in a long war?

All evidence points to the Klingons being superior, for whatever reasons (cloaks, large fleets--doesn't really matter):

1--Klingons destroyed half of Starfleet and were about to force a surrender in alternate timeline, following 20 years of war. Given the fact that Wesley Crusher still popped up on the E-D, in spite of the fact that it had no families and was a "battleship" in that timeline, I'd say events couldn't have turned out too differently--that is, at least to the extent that it makes this comparison totally invalid.

2--After rendering the Cardassians a "third-rate power" with a third of their military forces, the Klingons go to war with the Federation also. Even while fighting a war on two fronts, the Klingons are winning. Sisko tells us that "Starfleet has been able to slow them [the Klingons] down, but that's about all." Sisko also mentions the fact that losses to the Klingons had "spread Starfleet pretty thin" in "In Purgatory's Shadow."

3--Events of "AGT," which might not all be real but should still be accurate enough to maintain the facade for Picard.

I've looked and looked, but I can't find a single quantifiable statement of the Federation ever realistically expecting to defeat the Klingon Empire. I can remember maybe two lines in all of Star Trek that say anything remotely like this:

"Frankly, sir, we'll clean their chronometers"--Colonel Whoever (Rene Auberjonois's character), ST VI, in response to the Fed president's inquiry about war with the Klingons.

"The Empire is not strong enough to fight the Federation and the Cardassians. End this now, Gowron, before you lead the Empire to its worst defeat in history!"--Worf to Gowron, "Way of the Warrior."

I don't know about you, but Worf's potential hyperbole and that Col.'s tough-talk is no more convincing to me than Harry Dimwit talking about blowing up a small moon with one photorp.

By all quantifiable indications (conquest of major empire's homeworld in that potentially illusory future, and especially destruction of over 50% of Starfleet), the Klingons are the big cheese of the Alpha/Beta Quadrant.

That is, at least until they were brought to the brink of annihilation in the Dominion War.

[NecronLord]

I would agree there. However a D'deridex seems to be massively superior to any other AQ ship in terms of armament.

During TNG, absolutely. Some of the newer Starfleet and Klingon designs we see oughta be able to whip one--say, a Sovereign, Prometheus, or Negh'Var.

That would probably be the reason the Romulans designed the Schemitar (And if anyone tells me that the slaves stuck in the mines designed and built that thing then I will probably go nuts). To restore their lead.

But as the main-line, mass-produced warship, it's definitely numero uno.

It's also the best looking.

They also probably have superior tactial abilities, not being vikings and not being and better ground forces (given the fact that you can actually aim a romulan pesonal disruptor.)

Yes.

They're pretty much as sneaky, or sneakier than, the Cardassians...and we know from "Soldiers of the Empire" that the Klingons frequently fell into Cardie traps.

Klingons fall into drainage ditches.

In the alternate present in 'yesterday's enterprise' they were about to conquer the Federation. Though generally the feds are considered to be a superior force when they get going.

Perhaps. But then, they had about two decades to get rolling against the Klingons, and they were still getting their asses kicked.

Yup. I'm just saying we've seen some radically different timelines.

Hell going by Q illusions, Picard is able to defeat, with no practise or experience, Guy of Gisborne, who is supposedly the best swordsman in northern england.

Picard was a fencer, but yeah...that doesn't flush.

Oh, yes I forgot about that. But still, he wouldn't be familiar with a 1200s sword or fighting technique. That and Gisborne claimed to be pretty good.

All I can really say to that is the Robinhood illusion was much more transparent to Picard and his crew; Q obviously made little effort at creating that diversion, as he could've read a book and come up with essentially the same thing (if not better...he definitely abbreviated the story).

Ick. So true. For a start, I'm pretty sure the longbowmen would have shot Worf when he was waving the sword around his head

The AGT stuff, OTOH, seemed pretty elaborate.

Well, it was part of his job...

He seemed determined to keep the illusion very convincing, such that Picard treated it like a life or death situation. I think if it was terribly out-of-whack for the Klingons to conquer the RSE, he probably wouldn't have come up with that twist...it would've been just as easy to have Warbirds shooting at Pasteur rather than Voodieh attack cruisers.

True enough. But on the other hand there was the ueber galaxy of doom in that episode. Wheras instead the feds have designed the Soverigen.

Here's a mad suggestion... Could the feds and klingons in that possible future have been using Voyager Endgame tech against the Romulans?

The whole comparative strength of the FKR is one of the more difficult things to pin down in Trek, to be sure.

True enough.

[TheDarkling]

WORF
Why did you oppose the decision?

KURN
Because Gowron underestimates the
Federation... he thinks they're
soft... weak. He's wrong. And
sooner or later... there will be
war.

WORF
A war the Empire may lose.

KURN
(grudging)
Yes.


Kurn should know the empires relative strength compared to the Federation as should Worf.

WORF
You know that mining this system
is just the beginning... if we do
nothing, it will only encourage
Gowron to continue thinking of the
Federation as weak. Eventually he
will attack. And that will be the
end of the Empire.

Worf seems to think the situation is dire indeed.

Now to correct some of the selective quoting.

SISKO
I'm afraid the war's not going
well. The Klingons are throwing
everything they have at us.
Starfleet's been able to slow them
down, but that's about all.

Starfleet has been able to slow down the Klingons who are throwing EVERYTHING they have against the Federation whilst the Federation isn't fully mobilised.

And Starfleet being over stretched isn't due only to the Klingon war as you assert:

(a beat)
Besides, we need all the help we
can get. The Dominion picked a
perfect time to invade. The
Cardassian fleet is in shambles,
the Romulans aren't much better
off, and between the Klingon War
and the latest Borg attack,
Starfleet's spread pretty thin.

We don't know how many ships Starfleet lost to the Borg and spread thin only indicates that the Federation doesn't have many ships ready to call into action at the drop of a hat.

As has already been noted the Klingons lag behind the Federation technologically but the Federation fears them s little they are willing to close the gap (although this may be more evidence of the Feds not having a good grip of reality).

WORF
There are certain technological
advances we have shared with both
Bajor and the Klingons that we
would prefer to keep out of
Cardassian hands.

KIRA
Such as?

WORF
Photon torpedo guidance systems,
long-range sensors, enhanced warp
core overdrives. This is a
complete list.

Now on to Yesterdays Enterprise.

The POD of the new timeline was 2344 and in those 20 years the Federation lost ground to the Klingons, why?

We know the Federation engaged the Cardassians for at least 27 years starting at latest in 2355, the Galen border conflict was approx 2355-2357.
The Tzenkethi war was also in the 50-60 region yet another war the Feds had to deal with.

Now that is at least three conflicts that kept the Federation busy around the time of the Klingon-Federation war, there is also the probability that the Romulans could have taken action against the Federation (or at least forced the Federation to keep forces guarding the neutral zone as they did in the Dominion war), many other races could have also taken advantage of the Federations weakness and started regional conflict, the war could have also stopped more recent Federation members signing up or the Federation expanding itself in other areas.

We also know that a 20 year war between the alternate Feds and Klingons resulted in 40 billion Fed deaths which pushed the Feds to their limits yet by DS9 the Feds can take 900 billion deaths before giving up, it would seem that the modern federation without 20 + years of Fed-Klingon war has grown far larger, possibly addressing why the Feds and Klingons don't have the same balance of power as they did in the alternate timeline, in DS9 (OTL) the Feds have used the 30 years since the POD well and built up and are no longer distracted by brush fire wars this has caused them to gain power relative to the empire.

In short using the "Yesterdays Enterprise" timeline to prove something about current Fed Vs Klingons is rather suspect and the quotes from DS9 seem to indicate that the Feds are the dominant power of the AQ.

[seanrobertson]

KURN
Because Gowron underestimates the
Federation... he thinks they're
soft... weak. He's wrong. And
sooner or later... there will be
war.

WORF
A war the Empire may lose.

KURN
(grudging)
Yes.

Kurn should know the empires relative strength compared to the Federation as should Worf.

Sure. But "may" lose? That's not very definitive. That might simply indicate that the two are pretty evenly matched.

And KIM, this is while the Klingon Empire continues to occupy Cardassian space.

You know that mining this system
is just the beginning... if we do
nothing, it will only encourage
Gowron to continue thinking of the
Federation as weak. Eventually he
will attack. And that will be the
end of the Empire.

Worf seems to think the situation is dire indeed.

Affirmative, but note Worf's emphasis. That's twice now we've heard that Gowron believes "the Federation is weak"; that by underestimating the Federation, the Klingons are putting themselves at risk.

That's somewhat different than a declaratory statement of superiority; e.g., "The Klingons are too weak to defeat us." It might be a matter of Gowron losing because he acted stupidly, not that his empire lacked strength.

It also flies in the face of observed events, which are always more reliable than Worf's talk. (He was trying to persuade Kurn toward a specific course of action, anyway). That is, we saw a heavily militarized Federation lose to the Klingons.

I can't emphasize enough, the Klingons were fighting the Cardassians at that point, too. For an accurate read of their strength relative to the UFP, either the UFP needs to fight a power just like the Cardassians, with circumstances identical to those the Klingons face or, better yet, both go head-to-head without other pressing fronts.

Now to correct some of the selective quoting.

Heh. It was from memory But you're right. Carry on:

SISKO
I'm afraid the war's not going
well. The Klingons are throwing
everything they have at us.
Starfleet's been able to slow them
down, but that's about all.

Starfleet has been able to slow down the Klingons who are throwing EVERYTHING they have against the Federation whilst the Federation isn't fully mobilised.

That's certainly true, but Sisko didn't say the Federation wasn't mobilized there. Did he indicate that elsewhere? Does he have to say, "Starfleet is throwing everything we have right back at them" for this to be assumed?

And Starfleet being over stretched isn't due only to the Klingon war as you assert:

(a beat)
Besides, we need all the help we
can get. The Dominion picked a
perfect time to invade. The
Cardassian fleet is in shambles,
the Romulans aren't much better
off, and between the Klingon War
and the latest Borg attack,
Starfleet's spread pretty thin.

We don't know how many ships Starfleet lost to the Borg and spread thin only indicates that the Federation doesn't have many ships ready to call into action at the drop of a hat.

Right.

I can live with that. I dunno what Borg incursion he's talking about--the stardates of "First Contact" and "In Purgatory's Shadow" don't match at all--but there are too many unknowns for that to be useful, I agree.

As has already been noted the Klingons lag behind the Federation technologically but the Federation fears them s little they are willing to close the gap (although this may be more evidence of the Feds not having a good grip of reality).

WORF
There are certain technological
advances we have shared with both
Bajor and the Klingons that we
would prefer to keep out of
Cardassian hands.

KIRA
Such as?

WORF
Photon torpedo guidance systems,
long-range sensors, enhanced warp
core overdrives. This is a
complete list.

Well, at this point, were the Federation and Klingons civil, or had they gone to war yet? By far the most important questions are, when were those technologies exchanged, and why?

If they were given to the Klingons during the height of peace, say when Gowron first led the council, the Federation really didn't have anything to fear from as much. Besides, they might've gotten something useful in exchange...it needn't be a one-way street.

Now on to Yesterdays Enterprise.

The POD of the new timeline was 2344 and in those 20 years the Federation lost ground to the Klingons, why?

You already know my answer

We know the Federation engaged the Cardassians for at least 27 years starting at latest in 2355, the Galen border conflict was approx 2355-2357.
The Tzenkethi war was also in the 50-60 region yet another war the Feds had to deal with.

Who/what are the Galen? I thought that was Picard's "pirate" nickname, as well as a name he assumed some other time ("The Inner Light" maybe? Or was that Kataan? Was Galen his friend? I can't remember--doesn't matter. Ignore that ).

The Tzenkethi were never thought to be a very major power. The Dominion probably only picked them because they knew it'd be too hard to provoke a war by Defiant attacking, say, the Cardassians. (It'd already been done, and war didn't break out. I imagine the Founders got the idea.)

Besideswhich, by all indications the Cardassian War was limited to border conflicts. The biggest single loss was usually regarded as Setlik III, and that was in the hundreds of people. It couldn't have been an all-out war, not unless the Cardassians uncharacteristically decided to just spare every starship and colony with a crew/population of over a few hundred.

Now that is at least three conflicts that kept the Federation busy around the time of the Klingon-Federation war,

Hmm...not necessarily. Though I think they're all very limited in scope, it's possible that the Federation didn't go to war with the Cardassians at all in that time period. I'd imagine they'd work like hell to avoid any other conflicts once the Klingon war was going full-tilt. The Klingon war did start first in that time period, after all.

there is also the probability that the Romulans could have taken action against the Federation (or at least forced the Federation to keep forces guarding the neutral zone as they did in the Dominion war),

Hmm...perhaps, though they were also deep in that isolation period then. I grant you, that would be a good time to come out of isolation

But historically speaking, have the Romulans ever taken advantage of the Federation while the latter was occupied even with markedly superior forces; e.g., the Dominion? No.

The RSE didn't attack during either Borg incursion, and to my knowledge, they didn't make any moves during the Klingon or Cardassian wars either. They let the Federation be.

I'd actually be more inclined to think that the Romulans might be weakinging the Klingons in that period...apparently, their isolation only extended "Fedward" *shrugs*, as we heard of the RSE striking at least three different Klingon systems in the 2340s and 50s (Narendra III, Khitomer, and a base mentioned in "Face of the Enemy").

The idea that both sides are tied up with other conflicts goes both ways, see

Mind you, I don't preclude the possibility that the Federation and Klingons just had the field all to themselves during that entire time.

But evidently, whatever else happened on the sidelines didn't make much of a difference. If it really did, you'd think Picard might mention this to Guinan; at least, he might qualify that "things are going badly for the Federation, far worse than is generally known" in part "because the UFP is being hit by all kinds of alien powers PLUS the Klingons." Or something similar.

No...from what Picard said, and given the statements of others (some of Yar's words, for instance), it sounded like 99% of their woes were spelled with a capital K.

many other races could have also taken advantage of the Federations weakness and started regional conflict, the war could have also stopped more recent Federation members signing up or the Federation expanding itself in other areas.

Sure, but the same could be said for the Klingon Empire. (And besides, we've seen species join Starfleet during wartime...I think "Insurrection"-- and therefore, the "euching-chef-for!" cabbagehead aliens' admission to the UFP--took place during the Dominion War, though I could be wrong.)

The Klingon Empire would probably be MOST hurt by this situation, since we know it is very resource-poor...remember, Praxis, their "key energy production facility," blew sky-high. And I don't think Rura Penthe is big enough to produce THAT much dilithium.

It needed extra territory, raw resources, to survive...as Chang said, "We need space, breathing room!"

We also know that a 20 year war between the alternate Feds and Klingons resulted in 40 billion Fed deaths which pushed the Feds to their limits yet by DS9 the Feds can take 900 billion deaths before giving up, it would seem that the modern federation without 20 + years of Fed-Klingon war has grown far larger,

Hmm...not so fast.

That 900 billion death count comes from one of those episodes with those twitchy idiot savants. That "projection" could extend for many decades, for all we know, and it might be wrong. (I doubt that, but those morons DID miss the likelihood that the silent savant would untie Bashir--something right under their noses.)

The exact text of that one might be helpful. We've got to be sure that the Federation is forced to surrender for similar reasons in both cases. They needn't be the same from what I've seen up 'til now...it could be a case of Starfleet's too small to protect its territory anymore vs. huge civilian loses in the respective conflicts. We simply don't know without more info.

possibly addressing why the Feds and Klingons don't have the same balance of power as they did in the alternate timeline, in DS9 (OTL) the Feds have used the 30 years since the POD well and built up and are no longer distracted by brush fire wars this has caused them to gain power relative to the empire.

In short using the "Yesterdays Enterprise" timeline to prove something about current Fed Vs Klingons is rather suspect and the quotes from DS9 seem to indicate that the Feds are the dominant power of the AQ.

Those quotes are all context-dropping, though, if you fail to mention that the Klingons were only in said position because they were fighting hefty wars on two fronts. Without that qualification, those statements are every bit as ambiguous as that which I quoted about Starfleet being "spread thin" thanks to the Klingon War. There are other factors (in that case, as you noted, the Borg incursion) that come into play.

I don't get why that alternate timeline is such an illicit means to compare the strength of the Feds and Klingons. It gives us very hard figures and a definitive outcome. No other source in Trek really affords that kind of objectivity.

[TheDarkling]

{quote]It also flies in the face of observed events, which are always more reliable than Worf's talk. (He was trying to persuade Kurn toward a specific course of action, anyway). That is, we saw a heavily militarized Federation lose to the Klingons. [/quote]

But those events took place in an alternate timeline, we can't really know exactly what ws the situation alkthough I did outline some problems below.

I can't emphasize enough, the Klingons were fighting the Cardassians at that point, too. For an accurate read of their strength relative to the UFP, either the UFP needs to fight a power just like the Cardassians, with circumstances identical to those the Klingons face or, better yet, both go head-to-head without other pressing fronts.

They were only having the odd skirmish at this point, the Cardassians had given up the fight and were letting the Klingons push them around in order to prevent fighting.

That's certainly true, but Sisko didn't say the Federation wasn't mobilized there. Did he indicate that elsewhere? Does he have to say, "Starfleet is throwing everything we have right back at them" for this to be assumed?

Well for a start the Defiant was just sitting at DS9 and a few weeks later in "Nor the Battle to the Strong" all that is in the area are a few single ships now fleets over 600+ ships like we see in the Dominion war.

I can live with that. I dunno what Borg incursion he's talking about--the stardates of "First Contact" and "In Purgatory's Shadow" don't match at all--but there are too many unknowns for that to be useful, I agree.

That is true but its clear that he is talking about first contact, unless a previously unknown Borg attack took place just before first contact but that seems like a stretch.

Well, at this point, were the Federation and Klingons civil, or had they gone to war yet? By far the most important questions are, when were those technologies exchanged, and why?

Well they aren't allies anymore but I assume the tech sharing happened before the alliance broke down, as for not fearing them the alliance was never that stable and up teching and a potential enenmy who could already bury seems like a bad idea.

Who/what are the Galen? I thought that was Picard's "pirate" nickname, as well as a name he assumed some other time ("The Inner Light" maybe? Or was that Kataan? Was Galen his friend? I can't remember--doesn't matter. Ignore that ).

Picard did have an old Professor named Galen which who you are probably thinking of.

The Galen border wars was a series over fights with the Talarians and it culminated with the destruction of the Federation colony on Galen IV.

The Tzenkethi were never thought to be a very major power. The Dominion probably only picked them because they knew it'd be too hard to provoke a war by Defiant attacking, say, the Cardassians. (It'd already been done, and war didn't break out. I imagine the Founders got the idea.)

They may not be a major power but they would sap Federation strength during the alternate Kling-Fed war.

Besideswhich, by all indications the Cardassian War was limited to border conflicts. The biggest single loss was usually regarded as Setlik III, and that was in the hundreds of people. It couldn't have been an all-out war, not unless the Cardassians uncharacteristically decided to just spare every starship and colony with a crew/population of over a few hundred.

I'm not so sure about that

PICARD
Evek, the last war caused massive
destruction... took millions of
lives.

So unless there were about 100,000 Setlik level events there must have been higher death tolls on other worlds attacked.

As for it only being skirmishes, Why wouldn't the Cardassian's push for more if teh Feds couldn't defend themselves well, it makes sense that if anything the Cardassian war would escalate in the other timeline.

Hmm...not necessarily. Though I think they're all very limited in scope, it's possible that the Federation didn't go to war with the Cardassians at all in that time period. I'd imagine they'd work like hell to avoid any other conflicts once the Klingon war was going full-tilt. The Klingon war did start first in that time period, after all.

Except all of these minor races wanted planets, if the Federation kept caving it would only encourage them and how can the Feds prevent those wars from braking out without caving to their demands (in OTL the Cardassians were hell bent on taking Federation space even when the Feds could give them a good hiding, miagine what would happn if the Feds couldn't defeat them easily).

Hmm...perhaps, though they were also deep in that isolation period then. I grant you, that would be a good time to come out of isolation

But historically speaking, have the Romulans ever taken advantage of the Federation while the latter was occupied even with markedly superior forces; e.g., the Dominion? No.

The RSE didn't attack during either Borg incursion, and to my knowledge, they didn't make any moves during the Klingon or Cardassian wars either. They let the Federation be.

I'd actually be more inclined to think that the Romulans might be weakinging the Klingons in that period...apparently, their isolation only extended "Fedward" *shrugs*, as we heard of the RSE striking at least three different Klingon systems in the 2340s and 50s (Narendra III, Khitomer, and a base mentioned in "Face of the Enemy").

Yeah I agree that the Romulans didn't seem to be hiding from the Romulans in OTL but the defeat of the Romulans at Narendra 3 may have encourage the Klingons into keeping up a war which in the ATL they could ill afford.

I also agree that the Romulans would probably let the war weak both sides however they have often coveted Federation territory and it is only prudent to either make a land grab from a weakened Federation or help them against the Klingons, doing nothing serves no purpose except to watch Romulan relative strength dwindle.

No...from what Picard said, and given the statements of others (some of Yar's words, for instance), it sounded like 99% of their woes were spelled with a capital K.

Oh no doubt they were but that doesn't preclude the possibility of force sapping engagements with the minor league players.

Sure, but the same could be said for the Klingon Empire. (And besides, we've seen species join Starfleet during wartime...I think "Insurrection"-- and therefore, the "euching-chef-for!" cabbagehead aliens' admission to the UFP--took place during the Dominion War, though I could be wrong.)

The Klingons conquer planets but the Feds need them to join by choice, a war spanning decades will only aid the Klingons in gaining power relative to the OTL but will also serve to weaken the ATL Feds relative to ours.

The Federation has expanded alot in recent time (before TNG) as the Romulan commander comments when they first met him after the Borg do their outpost scooping.

The Klingon Empire would probably be MOST hurt by this situation, since we know it is very resource-poor...remember, Praxis, their "key energy production facility," blew sky-high. And I don't think Rura Penthe is big enough to produce THAT much dilithium.

That was decades ago and the Feds helped them rebuild.

That 900 billion death count comes from one of those episodes with those twitchy idiot savants. That "projection" could extend for many decades, for all we know, and it might be wrong. (I doubt that, but those morons DID miss the likelihood that the silent savant would untie Bashir--something right under their noses.)

BASHIR
If we fight, we'll take over nine
hundred billion casualties. If we
surrender, no one dies. Either
way we're in for five generations
of Dominion rule.

And them not guessing what she would do is hardly relevantto there analysis.

They needn't be the same from what I've seen up 'til now...it could be a case of Starfleet's too small to protect its territory anymore vs. huge civilian loses in the respective conflicts. We simply don't know without more info.

Which begs the question why we are trying to use an ATL to overule statements by people in the OTL.

Those quotes are all context-dropping, though, if you fail to mention that the Klingons were only in said position because they were fighting hefty wars on two fronts.

The Cardassian war was over, they had no fight left in them which is why Duckat had to become a rebel in order to fight his own personal war.

I don't get why that alternate timeline is such an illicit means to compare the strength of the Feds and Klingons. It gives us very hard figures and a definitive outcome. No other source in Trek really affords that kind of objectivity.

Except we know very little about it and the two forces aren't comparable to hat they are in DS9, the POD was 30+ years ago by the end of DS9, a lot can happen in that time.

[seanrobertson]

But those events took place in an alternate timeline, we can't really know exactly what ws the situation alkthough I did outline some problems below.

You know,

This is one of the most interesting debates I've had in some time. Thank you

They were only having the odd skirmish at this point, the Cardassians had given up the fight and were letting the Klingons push them around in order to prevent fighting.

Are you sure about that? When Cardassia joined the Dominion, and all those Jem'Hadar ships reinforced the Cardassian military in running the Klingons and Maquis out, Sisko notes, "It looks like Gowron's war against Cardassia just took a turn for the worse."

A war which, incidentally, Dukat later said, "...left Cardassia a third-rate power."

The Federation failed to do quite that much damage, so it was probably a pretty rough, ongoing conflict.

The most important thing is, Klingon forces were still very much inside Cardassian space. When the went to war with the Federation, that'd mean they'd have to fight on two major fronts.

Thus, Worf's heavily qualified "maybe the Empire might lose" talk to Kurn--which remains persausive in tone; therefore, it's not necessarily the most accurate information--means their potential loss would be thanks to not only Gowron's arrogance, but the fact that their forces were divided, as well.

Well for a start the Defiant was just sitting at DS9 and a few weeks later in "Nor the Battle to the Strong" all that is in the area are a few single ships now fleets over 600+ ships like we see in the Dominion war.

That could easily be because DS9's far from the bulk of Klingon territory...those nearby were occupied with the Cardassians. We wouldn't have seen most of the fleet movements unless the show took place at Krios or something.

That is true but its clear that he is talking about first contact, unless a previously unknown Borg attack took place just before first contact but that seems like a stretch.

I tend to think so, too. It seems rather ridiculous that the Borg would leave Earth alone for years, then attack twice in the span of less than one year. Nonetheless, stardates indicate that the Borg cube attacked around the events of "Rocks and Shoals."

Well they aren't allies anymore but I assume the tech sharing happened before the alliance broke down, as for not fearing them the alliance was never that stable and up teching and a potential enenmy who could already bury seems like a bad idea.

I always thought their alliance was rather firm. It usually took a good bit of Romulan or Founder subterfuge (Kel, and the "thing impersonating Martok") to shake things up.

Picard did have an old Professor named Galen which who you are probably thinking of.

YES! From "The Chase," right...he also called himself "Galen" in "Gambit." Someone in TNG production liked the name!

The Galen border wars was a series over fights with the Talarians and it culminated with the destruction of the Federation colony on Galen IV.

Was that the one in which Riker's father was the sole survivor?

The Talarians stunk, though. Their technology was something less than nothing. The ability to trash a Federation colony is insignificant next to the power of the For...

Ooops!

Wrong series.

Seriously though, the crystalline entity could wipe out a colony. I'm not suggesting it alone is more powerful than the entire Talarian fleet (though that's probably not a stretch...the CE devastated a planet pretty thoroughly IIRC); rather, that a half-ass job of killing one colony doesn't require much strength. When some space-borne creature can do a better job, yet is destroyed effortlessly by some comm signal, that doesn't speak very highly of your navy.

I think the Talarians were just a bump in the road. The only reason the Federation was cautious at all with them was simply for the reason that they have a hard time defending their bloated territory; e.g., "Survivors."

They may not be a major power but they would sap Federation strength during the alternate Kling-Fed war.

...If it took place.

You're confusing me a little: on the one hand, you maintain that, since "Yesterday's Enterprise" depicts an alternate timeline, the events therein are somewhat hazy. How did you put it?

...we can't really know exactly what ws the situation

Why, then, is it okay to assume all these other conflicts took place in this alternate timeline?

The Federation is usually VERY quick to drop to its knees and kiss-ass to avoid war. Their agreement following the Tomed Incident was especially one-sided; just ask Admiral Pressman, who said the Treaty of Algeron "has tied our hands for the last fifty years!"

This followed a massacre, evidently, and still, the Federation didn't fight. They opted for some lop-sided agreement--no, appeasement--that gave the Romulans a technological leg-up, not to mention decades of isolation during which they'd build a large fleet of deadly battlecruisers.

This was supposedly during peacetime, too.

During an inevitable war with a major power, like the Klingons, the Federation is even more likely to make such bent-over-backwards efforts to avoid conflict with all those other aliens.

Put another way:

It fits their MO to avoid the Cardassian, Talarian, et al. conflicts at all costs in the first place, right?

The Klingon war gets cranked up for 5-10 years: it's now imperative that they minimize or altogether keep out of those "wars."

The Federation is many things, but I doubt they're so inconsistent that, one minute, they'll cede all this stuff to the Romulans during peace; and the next, they'll kick the Cardassians' ass while already embroiled in a full-scale, brutal war.

I'm not so sure about that

PICARD
Evek, the last war caused massive
destruction... took millions of
lives.

So unless there were about 100,000 Setlik level events there must have been higher death tolls on other worlds attacked.

Touche. You good me GOOD

I had forgotten all about that quote, if I ever even paid attention to it!

Of course, it's important to ask, is that the total no. of lives both sides lost? Which side bore the brunt of those losses?

If taken literally (which is potentially a mistake, but nonetheless), Picard's words could be used to conclude that more than one million, but less than ten million lives were lost in that war. If more than ten million had died, you'd think, after all, he'd say "tens of millions." If we say he wasn't paying that much attention to detail...well...how reliable is the quote at all, then?

Anyway, that's not important. Let's say 9 million people, Federation and Cardassian, died total. Let's also assume that each side took equal losses, rather than the more likely huge percentage of Cardassians (Evek's talk about losing several sons in the war, the ease w/ which Cardassian ships are disabled or destroyed altogether).

That's a max of about 4.5 million Federation casualties.

We learn that 40 billion lives had been lost in the Klingon war. I would think, given the context of that quote, those are solely Federation losses.

In terms of lives lost, that Cardassian conflict was comparatively child's play...subtract 99.989 PERCENT from the Klingon war's casualties, and you have the no. killed by Cardassians.

Admittedly, that fails to take into account the kinds of resources that could be tied up by even such an "insignificant" number of people, particularly if they were mostly Starfleet personnel on starships.

However, assuming the Federation allowed such a war to even take place which, historically, we know they would avoid at all costs, it's an absolute flea next to the Klingon war.

(Just as an aside, since I know now the Cardassian war was more than a series of border skirmishes, I've got to wonder...why did it take the Federation YEARS to stop them, whereas the Klingons pretty much reamed the Cardassians in a matter of WEEKS? Even with a whole third of their military dedicated to such a fight, we see yet again that the Klingons probably are a better war machine.)

As for it only being skirmishes, Why wouldn't the Cardassian's push for more if teh Feds couldn't defend themselves well, it makes sense that if anything the Cardassian war would escalate in the other timeline.

Only if they didn't appease them, which they invariably do even when the situation isn't desperate.

Besides, have the Cardassians ever taken advantage of the Federation when it's vulnerable? It just doesn't fit their standard operating procedure. They didn't attack when Starfleet was hurt by the first Borg incursion, and we know for a fact that it would've been a good time for them to strike:

"The Wounded"
ADMIRAL HADEN: They've granted you safe passage... We've agreed that you'll take along a delegation of observers as a show of good faith. Jean-Luc... I don't have to tell you the Federation is not prepared for a new sustained conflict. You must preserve the peace... no matter what the cost. Haden out.

(Also note the admiral's insistence on preserving the peace "no matter what the cost," something I should've referenced earlier WRT the Federation's willingness to eat shit so long as it means peace. Same said for their giving up territory to the Cardassians in the peace treaty.)

Except all of these minor races wanted planets,

Hmm...the Cardassians, definitely.

if the Federation kept caving it would only encourage them and how can the Feds prevent those wars from braking out without caving to their demands (in OTL the Cardassians were hell bent on taking Federation space even when the Feds could give them a good hiding, miagine what would happn if the Feds couldn't defeat them easily).

But that's all the Federation ever does. Cave in.

Besides, the Cardassians only came up with that ploy well after the events of "Yesterday's Enterprise," and it was heavily dependent on them facing resistance at Minos Korva. If the Federation was in the thick of war with Klingons, they might not give a damn about Minos Korva and just cede the thing.

The Cardassians didn't really want war for the sake thereof; as you said, the just wanted planets. That's something the UFP is seemingly quick to hand out.

Yeah I agree that the Romulans didn't seem to be hiding from the Romulans in OTL but the defeat of the Romulans at Narendra 3 may have encourage the Klingons into keeping up a war which in the ATL they could ill afford.

I think you said Romulan one too many times there I'm a little confused by this.

I also agree that the Romulans would probably let the war weak both sides however they have often coveted Federation territory and it is only prudent to either make a land grab from a weakened Federation or help them against the Klingons, doing nothing serves no purpose except to watch Romulan relative strength dwindle.

Then why did they do that during what you call the OTL? Why did they just sit idly by during the Dominion War?

Apparently, they're not in dire need of planets for fresh resources. They seem to have enough territory that they can sit back and watch everyone else duke it out. Indeed, many of their plots seemed to involve doing just that.

Oh no doubt they were but that doesn't preclude the possibility of force sapping engagements with the minor league players.

To the tune of .01% drains, yes

Those events could still have happened, I agree, but similar events could've just as easily sapped the Klingons, too. I think it's more likely that the Federation would just do everything it could to concentrate on the Klingon war, even if that meant giving up territory the Cardassians, etc. (which they do anyway, even after a supposedly victorious war).

The Klingons conquer planets but the Feds need them to join by choice, a war spanning decades will only aid the Klingons in gaining power relative to the OTL but will also serve to weaken the ATL Feds relative to ours.

The Federation has expanded alot in recent time (before TNG) as the Romulan commander comments when they first met him after the Borg do their outpost scooping.

Expansion is a double-edged sword, though. It does entail more potential manpower and resources for Starfleet, but it's also even more territory to defend--something they already don't do very well.

I have to go...I'm already rushing, and want to give this my full attention. I'll be back later to finish my post.

[NecronLord]

You two should know: Brevity is a virtue...

[seanrobertson]

You two should know: Brevity is a virtue...

Heh. I make no bones about it: I'm verbose when I do post I try to not just multiply verbal bullshit, but it's tough sometimes to keep all that b.s. cooped up inside me!

What do you think Nec? I think we both have some pretty good points here. I realize the idea that the Federation could be whipped by the Klingons, when both are at full strength anyway, is unpopular among most Trek fans.

[NecronLord]

I don't know. The posts exceed the "Ultra-Lengthy post aversion syndrome" I developed during the Wong-Darkstar debate...

Also as a Romulan fan I think ST would have been better if Vejur had gone and patterened Chronos and Earth...

[TheDarkling]

This is one of the most interesting debates I've had in some time. Thank you

You need to get out more

I do find the setup of the Trek universe interesting though so I guess I need to get out more aswell

Are you sure about that? When Cardassia joined the Dominion, and all those Jem'Hadar ships reinforced the Cardassian military in running the Klingons and Maquis out, Sisko notes, "It looks like Gowron's war against Cardassia just took a turn for the worse."

GOWRON
(on viewscreen, to
Martok)
Enough. Cease fire. Order our
ships in Cardassian territory to
halt their advance. I do not
intend to hand victory to the
Dominion.

From Way of the Warrior.

DUKAT
Because the Detepa Council has
something else in mind... they've
ordered me not to engage the
Klingons in "any further
conflict." The Council is looking
for a diplomatic solution.

After the Klingons kill several high ranking Cardassians in "Return to Grace".

Now this isn't to say the Klingons weren't doing raids and the like but they were no longer in a state of active warfare with the Cardassians because the Cardassians were too willing to sue for peace, thus they let the Klingons get away with murder.

A war which, incidentally, Dukat later said, "...left Cardassia a third-rate power."

Ah but the Cardy-Fed war did have a large effect upon the Cardassians.

MADRED
What happens to impoverished
societies... the tombs were
plundered, priceless treasures
stolen... a few were preserved in
museums... but even those were
eventually sold in order to pay
for our war efforts.

PICARD
That war cost you hundreds of
thousands of lives... depleted
your food supplies... left your
population weakened and
miserable... and yet you risk war
again.

The Cardassian have always been a third rate power in my opinion and they certainly weren't on the same level as the big boys (F/K/R).

MADRED
How easy for you to judge us.
Federation planets seem to want
for nothing. But our planet is a
hardscrabble world... famine is
still a threat... it's not so easy
for us.

People still starve on Cardassia, does that sound like a big threat to you, the Fed-Cardy war crippled them, then they had a civil war and the Klingons struck straight after - it was estimated that the Klingons would annex they completely until they managed to drag their forces together (due to everybody’s favourite plain and simple tailor).

The most important thing is, Klingon forces were still very much inside Cardassian space. When the went to war with the Federation, that'd mean they'd have to fight on two major fronts.

Not really they was no fighting along the Cardassian front unless the Klingons chose to fight there, the Cardassians didn't have enough power to force them to commit huge defensive forces.

That could easily be because DS9's far from the bulk of Klingon territory...those nearby were occupied with the Cardassians. We wouldn't have seen most of the fleet movements unless the show took place at Krios or something.

The war wasn't a full scale thing though it was a scrap over the Archanis sector, thus Starfleet’s forces should be concentrated there, also the fact that the Klingons had preparation time means they could move the bulk of there force (everything they got as Sisko puts it) to the area but that Starfleet would have to drag forces to the area meaning that the Klingons should have had the advantage and still Starfleet was blunting their sword.

I always thought their alliance was rather firm. It usually took a good bit of Romulan or Founder subterfuge (Kel, and the "thing impersonating Martok") to shake things up.

Kim'pec threatened to drop the Feds like they were a bad habit if Picard didn't do as he asked, Gowron rewrote history and refused to speak to (or help) Picard until Picard threatened to lend Federation gratitude to other houses in the Empire, Duras would have taken the Empire into a Romulan alliance and so on.
The alliance wasn't exactly built upon solid bedrock.

YES! From "The Chase," right...he also called himself "Galen" in "Gambit." Someone in TNG production liked the name!

I suspect him calling himself Galen when he was being an archaeologist was a direct reference to his old Prof (hmm internal continuity).

Was that the one in which Riker's father was the sole survivor?

Nope that was the Tholian conflict of 2353 but thanks for adding more to my list

I think the Talarians were just a bump in the road. The only reason the Federation was cautious at all with them was simply for the reason that they have a hard time defending their bloated territory; e.g., "Survivors."

DATA
This particular guerilla maneuver
resulted in two hundred and
nineteen fatalities over a three-
year period.

It wasn't just that single colony or the conflict wouldn't have lasted for a minium of 3 years, although the Federations inability to deal with brushfires is well know (I actually think its more to do with the Feds lacking political will than an inability to enforce their borders).

Why, then, is it okay to assume all these other conflicts took place in this alternate timeline?

I am just assuming they do, we all we know the Klingons developed a cloak like from ST VI in the early war which gave them the advantage out of the gate or soemthing else extreme, this is exactly why I don't like the idea of using the alternate timeline to prove anything about "our" timeline.

The Federation is usually VERY quick to drop to its knees and kiss-ass to avoid war. Their agreement following the Tomed Incident was especially one-sided; just ask Admiral Pressman, who said the Treaty of Algeron "has tied our hands for the last fifty years!"

Yeah they are, I agree.

The Federation is many things, but I doubt they're so inconsistent that, one minute, they'll cede all this stuff to the Romulans during peace; and the next, they'll kick the Cardassians' ass while already embroiled in a full-scale, brutal war.

But you fail to understand the Cardassian mindset, I have an expert here to explain.

JELLICO
Lemec is a Cardassian... and
Cardassians are like... timber
wolves -- predators... bold in
large numbers... cautious by
themselves...

A predator attacks when blood is in the air, with the Feds weakened the Cardies will attack, do you think they will simply take a few gains and leave it at that?

The Cardassian try again and again to capture more territory even when the Feds could squish them, with a distracted Federation they could (and would) run amok.

The Galen border conflict could have probably been settled by the Feds caving but we don't know enough about the other conflicts to make a proper judgement.

All that the Feds caving on every issue without a fight is going to do is invite every single minor race to make a land grab which (going by what you would advise) the Federation will rubber stamp and hand over, of course this may be exactly what happened in the ATL.

Of course, it's important to ask, is that the total no. of lives both sides lost? Which side bore the brunt of those losses?

As quoted above cardy losses were in the 100,000's which makes sense since the Feds aren't going to go around butchering civilians like the Cardies, I would expect the vast amount of direct causalities to be on the Feds side.

However, assuming the Federation allowed such a war to even take place which, historically, we know they would avoid at all costs, it's an absolute flea next to the Klingon war.

You underetimate Cardassian greed I feel, the Feds can't wave a magic wand and stop the war and folding to Cardy demands will only make them bolder.

(Just as an aside, since I know now the Cardassian war was more than a series of border skirmishes, I've got to wonder...why did it take the Federation YEARS to stop them, whereas the Klingons pretty much reamed the Cardassians in a matter of WEEKS? Even with a whole third of their military dedicated to such a fight, we see yet again that the Klingons probably are a better war machine.)

Lack of political will on the part of the Feds, they didn't want to admit to the folks back home that a proper war was going on so they never went all out, if they had of done Picard would have been drinking Earl Grey on Cardassia Prime.

As for the matter of the great Empire, this was after the Cardy economy was crushed by the war, the Cardy forces hammered by the Feds (and the Marquis, and a few by the Founders), their main intelligence network destroyed, a civil war and a resulting coup that probably had all military forces grounded so as to prevent the military from trying to retake power, this is why the Klingons advance with little to no resistance until thanks to Garak’s warning the Cardassian are able to get their ships deployed into the field.

Only if they didn't appease them, which they invariably do even when the situation isn't desperate.

In the end they do appease them (with them obvious resulting consequences) however before that the Cardies will probably unwilling to open negotiations.

Besides, have the Cardassians ever taken advantage of the Federation when it's vulnerable? It just doesn't fit their standard operating procedure. They didn't attack when Starfleet was hurt by the first Borg incursion, and we know for a fact that it would've been a good time for them to strike:

They were taking advatage of Federation weakness - they were rearming after the had be trashed by the Feds (or themselves if you account for them running thei economy nito the ground).

But that's all the Federation ever does. Cave in.

Did they with the Tholians?, the Tzethkethi?, it took them 20 years with the Cardies and frankly caving in will probably hasten their demise anyway.

The Cardassians didn't really want war for the sake thereof; as you said, the just wanted planets. That's something the UFP is seemingly quick to hand out.

Yeah so teh cardies will think "hell they gave us planets when we just asked for them, if we attack them they will give us sectors", meanwhile on the Breen homeworld some bloodless leader is taking notes and so on.

I think you said Romulan one too many times there I'm a little confused by this.

Yeah it should read:

Yeah I agree that the Romulans didn't seem to be hiding from the Klingons in OTL but the defeat of the Romulans at Narendra 3 may have encouraged the Klingons into keeping up a war which in the ATL they could ill afford.

Then why did they do that during what you call the OTL? Why did they just sit idly by during the Dominion War?

They didn't they lent aid and comfort to the enemy, they allowed the Dominion to cross Romulan sapce and attack the lightly guarded Feds in their belly, although Bashir's thinktank predicted that by the time of season 7 (and some annual military meeting) the Romuans would decide they must act in order to avoid Dominion domination of the quadrant.

Apparently, they're not in dire need of planets for fresh resources. They seem to have enough territory that they can sit back and watch everyone else duke it out. Indeed, many of their plots seemed to involve doing just that.

They don't need planets they just want to dominate the galaxy and will persue whatever actions bring them closer to that goal.

Those events could still have happened, I agree, but similar events could've just as easily sapped the Klingons, too. I think it's more likely that the Federation would just do everything it could to concentrate on the Klingon war, even if that meant giving up territory the Cardassians, etc. (which they do anyway, even after a supposedly victorious war).

As I have explained appeasement is a bad idea and so is using this ATL to gauge Klingon strength in OTL.

Expansion is a double-edged sword, though. It does entail more potential manpower and resources for Starfleet, but it's also even more territory to defend--something they already don't do very well.

True enough but the Feds tend to recruit fully industrialised member worlds (who will probably have their own fleets already), this just adds to the murkiness of the ATL.

I have to go...I'm already rushing, and want to give this my full attention. I'll be back later to finish my post.

Ah my fingers are already bleeding.

[seanrobertson]

I don't know. The posts exceed the "Ultra-Lengthy post aversion syndrome" I developed during the Wong-Darkstar debate...

Agh, they ain't THAT long Scooter's replies were easily THE longest I've ever seen. And I ain't talking crazy "planar rings mean Genesis Effect!" stuff either. My stuff, and Darkling's too, is pretty good...

Also as a Romulan fan I think ST would have been better if Vejur had gone and patterened Chronos and Earth...

Why doesn't that surprise me?

Let me try to recap Darkling's points, then mine. I'll try to keep this brief, but if I leave too much out, I'll be straw manning Dark and weakening my own position, which is multi-tiered.

(My apologies to Darkling for A, not getting back to the last of his post sooner; and B, if I miss something or if I somehow misrepresent his position here.)

Darkling's position is this...

Conclusion--The Federation would win against a war with the Klingon Empire.

Premises:

1--In DS9, Worf told Gowron and Kurn the Empire could or might be defeated in a Federation war.

This means that the Klingons couldn't beat the Federation.

2--In the alternate timeline of "Yesterday's Enterprise," we don't know if the Federation was able to devote all of its forces to whip the Klingons.

This is because, in the "real" timeline, the Federation had a war with the Cardassians that cost "millions of lives" on both sides, had a border dispute with the Talarians, and some kind of war with the "Tzenkethi."

We do not know that the Klingons had such diversions.

So the Federation was occupied with all of the fights they had in the "original timeline," and were consequently not at full strength; meanwhile, the Klingons were at full strength, able to concentrate solely on the Federation.

3--The Klingon War of 2346-2366 would have prevented the Federation from admitting a tremendous no. of new member worlds. This would severely cut their resources and manpower short.

This is evident by the fact that a loss of 40 billion is the reason they expect to surrender to the Klingons. However, in DS9's "proper timeline," wherein the Federation admitted all these worlds over the previous 20 years, losses had to approach 900 billion before the Federation considered surrender to the Dominion.

-------------------------------------------------------

My conclusion is this: after DS9 was over, I would concur, the Federation is stronger than the Klingons.

But during TNG? I think the Klingons would whip the Federation judging by the events of "Yesterday's Enterprise."

My premises, mostly a response to Darkling's own:

1--Worf's dialogue is oftentimes vague or ambiguous; he is also trying to convince his brother to act on a specific course of action, so he might be exaggerating. The fact that he uses such qualifiers as "may" or "might" doesn't help.

It is therefore not reliable information to use in determining which power is stronger.

Picard's lines about the Federation's defeat in "Yesterday's" are not vague at all: half of Starfleet had been destroyed, and he expected to surrender inside of six months.

Picard's dialogue is, therefore, fairly reliable. Also note that Picard never mentions that conflicts with lesser powers have kept the Federation "softened up;" to assume this has happened is an appeal to ignorance, and flies in the face of the Federation's standard diplomatic OP.

No, Picard specifically states that the Klingon war is going VERY badly for the Federation. No Romulans, no Cardassians--just the Klingon war.

2--Even if the Federation had a war with the Cardassians in this "alternate timeline," it doesn't matter much.

During the "real timeline," Picard said "millions of lives" were lost in the Cardie conflict (total, for both powers), which probably denotes an upper-limit of about 4.9 million Federation lives lost. Otherwise, it's tens of millions.

Compared to the losses suffered against the Klingons, that's utterly insignificant--0.011% in fact. 99.989% of the Federation's manpower would still be available for the Klingon war.

Furthermore, the Federation has a history of appeasing its enemies even when it is not engaged in war. This cannot be ignored.

Logically, the Federation would push even HARDER for peace with the Cardassians, Talarians, and others to maximize its chances against the KE. Keep in mind, the Klingon war started well before those other conflicts.

Therefore, it is ENTIRELY likely that no Cardassian wars took place in the "Yesterday's Enterprise" timeline. (See above for some specific examples of Federation appeasement to Romulans and Cardassians.)

Additionally, the Cardassians and Romulans are NOT very inclined to take advantage of the Federation-Klingon War. We have seen plenty of times in which both the C&R's had a chance to hit a weakened Federation, yet they did not. We only have proof that the Romulans attacked the Klingons, in fact.

3--I seriously doubt that the Federation would gain so much territory that their organization could go from manpower "bankruptcy" at 40 billion, to something FIFTY times greater in the span of only 20 years. (Where are all these new species? If they make up such huge percentages of Starfleet manpower, why don't we see some of them on at least a few ships? We see at least 98% humans, instead, with the odd Vulcan or Bolian.)

Most important, IMO, it is a hasty generalization to simply assume "surrender" solely reflects manpower concerns, or that the circumstances of the Klingon and Dominion war are essentially interchangable.

The losses Bashir estimates could be incurred over many decades of war, after all, and might involve annihilation of many civilian populations for all we know. (That is not without precedent. Remember, the Dominion did execute 800 million Cardies at the end of the war, and Weyoun once mused that "eradicating Earth's population" seemed like a good idea, too, so they're not averse to the idea.)

I think that about sums it up, still with an eye toward being thorough. You could reduce it further, of course, but you'd leave some of the "oomph" of each premise on the cutting room floor I think. I already left out the fact that the Federation apparently fought a stalemate w/ the Cardassians over several years, yet the Klingons thoroughly kicked their asses in a matter of weeks or months.

[seanrobertson]

You need to get out more

I do find the setup of the Trek universe interesting though so I guess I need to get out more aswell

Affirmative on the first count. It's just that getting out for me usually entails a lot of pain. I'm conditioned like a Pavlovian dog: I know when I get in the car, I'm going to be sweating and dying at the gym about 25 minutes later.

Kinda like earlier today. ACK!

GOWRON
(on viewscreen, to
Martok)
Enough. Cease fire. Order our
ships in Cardassian territory to
halt their advance. I do not
intend to hand victory to the
Dominion.

From Way of the Warrior.

Halt their advance; i.e., not take over any more territory. They still had a very sizable fleet in Cardassian space, something that would detract from their ability to fight the Feds later on as per Worf's "maybe, maybe not!" statements to Kurn.

DUKAT
Because the Detepa Council has
something else in mind... they've
ordered me not to engage the
Klingons in "any further
conflict." The Council is looking
for a diplomatic solution.

After the Klingons kill several high ranking Cardassians in "Return to Grace".

At that Bajoran-Cardassian peace conference, per chance?

You are right in that the Card. gov't seemed determined to avoid further fighting. That makes me wonder...

Why?

I say it's probably because they'd already gotten reamed. They wanted to hold back and try to rebuild some of their strength.

What I do not think it means is that the Klingons didn't have assets tied up in Cardassian space--space they weren't willing to let go of. Or that the Klingons didn't take some losses.

Even if they left a fraction of that initial 1/3rd of their military in Cardassia, that's still a whole lot that can't fight the Federation.

And we have to go back to the fact that we're only discussing this because Worf made some vague statement about "a war the Empire may not win." I don't consider that a very reliable basis for concluding the Federation would beat the Klings, especially when the Klingon forces are still divided, fighting an ongoing war with the Cardies or not.

Now this isn't to say the Klingons weren't doing raids and the like but they were no longer in a state of active warfare with the Cardassians because the Cardassians were too willing to sue for peace, thus they let the Klingons get away with murder.

But they still have lots of ships in Cardassian space...I doubt they'd just leave their newly annexed territory undefended because the Cardassians were talking about peace. They're smarter than even that.

Ah but the Cardy-Fed war did have a large effect upon the Cardassians.

Sure, but it didn't stop them from considering a new offensive, did it?

Contrast that to how badly beaten, and how fast they were beaten, by the Klingons. They were immediately "suing for peace," as you noted. If the Federation was stronger than the Klingons, why would the Cardies not sue them for peace, too?

MADRED
What happens to impoverished
societies... the tombs were
plundered, priceless treasures
stolen... a few were preserved in
museums... but even those were
eventually sold in order to pay
for our war efforts.

PICARD
That war cost you hundreds of
thousands of lives... depleted
your food supplies... left your
population weakened and
miserable... and yet you risk war
again.

The Cardassian have always been a third rate power in my opinion and they certainly weren't on the same level as the big boys (F/K/R).

Yet the Federation still ceded territory to them in their peace treaty. They must've been doing something right for the Federation to give up planets to them.

MADRED
How easy for you to judge us.
Federation planets seem to want
for nothing. But our planet is a
hardscrabble world... famine is
still a threat... it's not so easy
for us.

People still starve on Cardassia, does that sound like a big threat to you, the Fed-Cardy war crippled them,

They were also starving before the war. Madred said that, prior to Central Command's rise to power, the people were starving. Later, after Madred's daughter comes through, Picard notes, "Her belly may be full, but her soul is empty."

Cardassia is just resource-poor to begin with.

Besides, starvation doesn't mean the Federation routed them as thoroughly as the Klingons did. People were starving on Cardassia Prime when the Dominion arrived--or so said Weyoun.

The real test is, how many Cardassian planets did the Federation capture? I think none. The Klingons, meanwhile, captured lots of Cardassian planets. We're told about how they were deploying orbital defense platforms near those worlds.

then they had a civil war and the Klingons struck straight after - it was estimated that the Klingons would annex they completely until they managed to drag their forces together (due to everybody’s favourite plain and simple tailor).

Good old Garak.

That still seems like a good ole' fashioned steamroll to me. Even if the Federation had no wish to annex Cardie worlds, how do you explain the vast discrepancy between what the Klingons did vs. what the Feds did?

The civil war thing shouldn't weaken their military forces that much. It was apparently a non-violent shell game...Dukat even wound up pretty much still in charge of things for a time.

If it was simply due to the fact that the Cardassian forces were very depleted from the Federation war, we'd have to assume they couldn't rebuild their fleet in the span of...what? 5 years?

That also makes no sense: as you pointed out, the Cardies were considering a new offensive against the Federation in "CoC." That means they were ready for some kind of action.

I think we have to ultimately look at this from the standpoint of numbers. The Klingons routed the Cardies inside weeks. The Federation fought them for YEARS. Even with all the aforementioned disadvantages vs. the Klingons, I see weeks on the left, and years on the right.

Weeks vs. years.

Not really they was no fighting along the Cardassian front unless the Klingons chose to fight there, the Cardassians didn't have enough power to force them to commit huge defensive forces.

Yeah, because the Klingons removed all their power, whereas the Federation couldn't

Sorry, I couldn't resist

I need to go again. The tome shalt resume later! It looks like a bumpy road ahead of me here, but I'm entirely pleased that we can talk about it in such an enjoyable manner.

Yes, even if it's too long, Necron