ST Nemesis. I want my two hours back.

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ST Nemesis. I want my two hours back.

Post by Knife »

Ok, first my disclaimer. I just (two days ago) watched Star Trek Nemesis. I did not waste money on it because of BlockBusters month pass thingy, rather I wasted 116 minutes of my life. I have not participated in many Nemesis threads, in fact I have avoided them, nor have I read a shit load about the movie. I did watched it already knowing the basic plotline and I did know a few twists (such as Data's sacrafice) but other than that, I knew very little about the movie.

This movie sucks shit, and this comes from a guy who actualy like Insurrection and First Contact. So much of this movie was a total rip off of other movies. I respect those who 'tip their hats' at other movies or stories in their projects, but alot of the stuff in Nemesis was a blatent rip off. There were some good parts (I must say) but not enough to save the movie.

Ok, as follows is my take on the stuff in the movie;

The Scimitar
Overly ugly and overly complex looking vessel that was totally unnecessary due to the fact that we (the audience) never get a good look at all the detail to make it worth while to have all the detail.

Some one's ubber wank job with 52 distrupter banks (IIRC) and yet it had a poor (in relation to it's overall weapons loadout) forward arc of fire. When Shizon ordered all forward weapons to fire on the Romulan WarBird, a paltry amount of fire hit the thing if you consider the total amount of weapons that they earlier say the Scimitar has.

The ships hanger is a collosal waste of space. The huge hanger that has a celing heigth large enough to acomodate a BoP (it seems) holds little itty bitty fighter type ships.

Shizon
:roll: This character was not necessary at all. I realize that they wanted TWOK remade for this movie, but using a clone was ridiculous and was playing for some extra ticket sales off of AotC. There were plenty of ex-villians from TNG that they could have reserected for the role. If anything Tasha Yar's daughter could have filled the role of arch enemy.

The desert planet
What the hell did that have to do with the over all plot. This would include the Argo shuttle and the Argo dune buggie. Why did all of those dudes on their own buggies keep missing Picard and company? Why was this even in the movie?

Radiation of the week (err...movie)
Once again, Star Trek characters are threatened by some extremely exotic radiation that produces some technobabble bullshit. Truely, if Shizon needed some WMD to wipe out Earth or what ever, just use good old fashion radiation (Xray, Gamma, ect). These things kill, and you don't have to keep coming up with unrealistic bullshit.

Also, why the hell was the weapon located on the fucking bridge? My God, at least put the fucking thing in the next compartment across the hall. Why waste the bridge space with a huge hole in the deck and some exotic weapon system embedded in it. :roll:

The Scorpian Class Attack ship
:roll: Ok, so this coffen with a gun is so small, even compared to ST's usual micro sized shuttles, that it is ludicrous. It is barely big enough to seat the two crew with little in the way of volume left for any other system let alone engines or weapons.

The weapon itself on the attack ship, is no bigger than rifle used by either the Feds or the Romulans but has a more destructive effect on targets (doors) than the hand held weaponary of the same size. I assume it would have something to do with a supposedly larger power source, yet the cramped hull of the ship would not be able to support a large power source for the weapon.

Flying through the hallways was dumb. :roll:

Scene rip off's
The scene where Picard is covering Data while he try's to access the hanger door is so a rip off of RotJ. It went way past a 'tip of the hat' straight to plagerising it.

The scene where Riker dives after the Remen, is another rip off but this time of ANH. Gah, don't these people have idea's of their own?

The final Battle
Ok, I actualy liked the final battle. For once the Feddies seem to use some honest to god tactics instead of technobabble to fight. It was refreshing to see a knock down drag out fight in ST were the ships pounded each other into submission. There was some dumb shit though;

Star Trek and Federation scensors to be more specific, seem uncapable of plotting with any accuracy in combat. The Scimitar was repeatedly firing its weapons and yet the Enterprise was having trouble targeting it because of its so called 'perfect cloak'. From the SFX's, the Scimitar did not apear to be nimble enough to evade the Enterprises weapons if the tactical officer would have plotted the fucking weapons fire and produced a generated bearing or projected course of the enemy ship. :roll: I have always hated this about ST.

The ramming scene, while cool, it asks questions about the shields of the Scimitar. Durring the dialog, Gerodi mentions that the Enterprise has serious shield loss on ventral, and forward arc's. Yet the Scimitar only has a 30% loss of overall shield systems yet they both collide. Are ST shields discressionary like SW shields can be? Can slow (realitive) moving objects penetrate the shields? They should have taken the time to either explain that the Scimitars shields were down in that sector or maybe the Scimitar had dropped its forward shields to transport Picard off.

For once, it would seem that the Romulan cloak could funciton with another shield system. The Enterprise did score some hits on the Scimitar while its cloak was running. Before, this would have cause maximum damage due to the fact the cloaks can't seem to run with protective shields in place. I don't know if this is something that just slid through or if it represents a new shield/cloak system.

Federation Fleet Tactics and Commad decisions
Picards fleet was 40 (IIRC) minutes away from his task force (but I don't know if they were going max warp so it could have been closer) when they passed the 'rift' and the Scimitar jumped them. Due to the 'rift' the Enterprise could not call the fleet for assistance. Yet, on their sensors, the Enterprise could see the fleet. I would assume that the acting commander of the fleet awaiting the arival of the Enterprise, would be watching for the Enterprise and could see them on their scensors. Could they not deduce a battle when they see one on their sensors? Yet no mention of the fleet coming to their resuce was said.

The battle was long enough that the fleet would make an threat to the Scimitar and even if it could not get there for 30 or 40 minutes, it would still represent of problem if the Scimitar could not conquer its enemy quickly.

I am glad this is the last ST movie with the TNG cast. This franchise needs to die. :kill:
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But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
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Post by NecronLord »

Don't forget. No natural positron sources :roll:
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Re: ST Nemesis. I want my two hours back.

Post by Alyeska »

Knife wrote:This franchise needs to die. :kill:
You can die now. I do not take such insults openly. A break might be in order for the series, but the game are still quite good and so are several of the novels.
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Post by NecronLord »

In the context of the rest of the line I think he was reffering to TNG not ST.
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Re: ST Nemesis. I want my two hours back.

Post by Knife »

Alyeska wrote:
Knife wrote:This franchise needs to die. :snip:quote]

You can die now. I do not take such insults openly. A break might be in order for the series, but the game are still quite good and so are several of the novels.
The TNG cast is spent. Picard has been the commading officer of the Enterprise for 15 years now. Everyone on his staff has been stagnate in their carrees for those 15 years. It has streched the realistic plausability. The current caretakers of the franchise is bankrupt on ideas and the longer it goes on the more they fuck up the entire series (all of Trek).

Picard and company have had their run, time to retire them. As to the rest of Trek, a nice nappy pooh would be nice. But if B&B continue on their track, the whole shabang can go bye bye IMO.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
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Re: ST Nemesis. I want my two hours back.

Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Alyeska wrote:
Knife wrote:This franchise needs to die. :kill:
You can die now. I do not take such insults openly. A break might be in order for the series, but the game are still quite good and so are several of the novels.
In other words, non-canon royalties-winning shit for (mostly and foremostly) Trekkies.

So much to hope for. :roll:
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Re: ST Nemesis. I want my two hours back.

Post by NecronLord »

Illuminatus Primus wrote:non-canon royalties-winning shit
TOS TNG DS9 VOY ENT ST 1-10 are all strictly non canon depictions accordong to Gene Roddenberry. Only the ST TMP novellisation is actually canon, everything else is subordinate to that.
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Post by Lord Pounder »

In fairness most of the novels bury the series's. However even the TNG stuff has been bottoming out of late. I want to see more from the USS Excaiber(sp). I read one of those books and i was impressed but i haven't been able to find more.
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Post by Stravo »

Still say that it was better than TPM.
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Re: ST Nemesis. I want my two hours back.

Post by Illuminatus Primus »

NecronLord wrote:
Illuminatus Primus wrote:non-canon royalties-winning shit
TOS TNG DS9 VOY ENT ST 1-10 are all strictly non canon depictions accordong to Gene Roddenberry. Only the ST TMP novellisation is actually canon, everything else is subordinate to that.
:roll:

I meant "typical understanding of Paramount canon policy" as in movie + shows = canon; everything else = apocrypha.
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Re: ST Nemesis. I want my two hours back.

Post by NecronLord »

Illuminatus Primus wrote: :roll:

I meant "typical understanding of Paramount canon policy" as in movie + shows = canon; everything else = apocrypha.
Irrelevant. TMP TOS TNG (DS9 VOY ENT) MOVIES = Also non canon royalties winning shit according to the original creator of the series.

Just because you happen to have it in for the books is no reason to go off on a little rant.
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Post by Master of Ossus »

Actually, I disagree with one of your criticisms. The Rift was somehow supposed to block all of their sensors, preventing the commander from knowing that a battle was going on in it at least until Picard and the E-E should have exited the Rift.

HOWEVER, I also think it was idiotic beyond credibility for Picard and his officers to willingly chart a course that took them through an area in which they could not maintain sensor contact with the fleet meant to protect them.
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Post by Captain Cyran »

Stravo wrote:Still say that it was better than TPM.
I agree. TPM...well, sucked. The only good part was the saber fight. Episode II was better then Nemisis by a long shot, but it was still shot down by Matrix and LOTR.

Star Trek isn't the only franchise that needs a break if you get my meaning.

Now Knife...You liked Insurrection?!
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Post by Warspite »

Captain_Cyran wrote:
Stravo wrote:Still say that it was better than TPM.
I agree. TPM...well, sucked. The only good part was the saber fight. Episode II was better then Nemisis by a long shot, but it was still shot down by Matrix and LOTR.

Star Trek isn't the only franchise that needs a break if you get my meaning.

Now Knife...You liked Insurrection?!
I think Stravo meant The Motion Picture (TMP, instead of TPM)... (didn't he?) :wink:
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Post by Darksider »

Captain_Cyran wrote:
Stravo wrote:Still say that it was better than TPM.

Star Trek isn't the only franchise that needs a break if you get my meaning.

I thought EP 2. was great. Not as good as the OT but still great. Call me an optimist, but i'm still hoping that George gets it right with Episode 3.
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Post by Captain Cyran »

Warspite wrote:
Captain_Cyran wrote:
Stravo wrote:Still say that it was better than TPM.
I agree. TPM...well, sucked. The only good part was the saber fight. Episode II was better then Nemisis by a long shot, but it was still shot down by Matrix and LOTR.

Star Trek isn't the only franchise that needs a break if you get my meaning.

Now Knife...You liked Insurrection?!
I think Stravo meant The Motion Picture (TMP, instead of TPM)... (didn't he?) :wink:
No, I'm pretty sure it's a well known fact that Stravo really didn't like The Phantom Menace.
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Re: ST Nemesis. I want my two hours back.

Post by Rhadamanthus »

Knife wrote: The desert planet
What the hell did that have to do with the over all plot. This would include the Argo shuttle and the Argo dune buggie. Why did all of those dudes on their own buggies keep missing Picard and company? Why was this even in the movie?
Well they had to have the fight with the Tuskan Raiders on Tatooine so they could find B-4 don't you see....urr, I'm sorry, the nameless pre-warp civilisation on Korellus III so they could find the pointless plot device that lets Shinzon think he knows where the Fed Fleet is, and provides a blatant lead in to a "Star Trek XI: The Search for Data" :x
Radiation of the week (err...movie)
Once again, Star Trek characters are threatened by some extremely exotic radiation that produces some technobabble bullshit. Truely, if Shizon needed some WMD to wipe out Earth or what ever, just use good old fashion radiation (Xray, Gamma, ect). These things kill, and you don't have to keep coming up with unrealistic bullshit.
Yeah, but Xray and Gamma radiation don't make cool lightshow patterns.

The final Battle
Ok, I actualy liked the final battle. For once the Feddies seem to use some honest to god tactics instead of technobabble to fight. It was refreshing to see a knock down drag out fight in ST were the ships pounded each other into submission.
Really? Could you point me to where they used tactics? Aside from coordinating fire on shield impacts, the Ent and the Warbirds boffed it majorly. The Big E is clearly sitting still in some points, apparently whoever was at tactical wasn't paying attention when the great bloody uncloaked Scimitar swoops down right in front of them and blows the bridge open. And then there is Denatra bearing down on a ship that outguns her about 10 to 1.

Federation Fleet Tactics and Commad decisions
Picards fleet was 40 (IIRC) minutes away from his task force (but I don't know if they were going max warp so it could have been closer) when they passed the 'rift' and the Scimitar jumped them. Due to the 'rift' the Enterprise could not call the fleet for assistance. Yet, on their sensors, the Enterprise could see the fleet. I would assume that the acting commander of the fleet awaiting the arival of the Enterprise, would be watching for the Enterprise and could see them on their scensors. Could they not deduce a battle when they see one on their sensors? Yet no mention of the fleet coming to their resuce was said.
I disagree on this point, we don't know that what we saw was an active sensor display, that may have just been a static display of the position of the Fleet and the Big E's course to reach it. My question is why the Fleet wasn't sent out to meet the Enterprise rather than waiting in Federation space. As far as anyone knows Shinzon is in control of the Romulan Empire, and they know he intends to wipe out life on Earth, so they could hardly have been worried about violating the neutral zone and Romulan space.
HOWEVER, I also think it was idiotic beyond credibility for Picard and his officers to willingly chart a course that took them through an area in which they could not maintain sensor contact with the fleet meant to protect them.
What's more idiotic is that it didn't even occur to them until the last minute. "Gee...we're passing through a region of space where long range communications and sensors are out....you think it's just barely possible this might be a good place for an ambush?"
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Post by Stravo »

Captain_Cyran wrote: No, I'm pretty sure it's a well known fact that Stravo really didn't like The Phantom Menace.
ABSOLUTELY correct my friend. In fact I enjoyed ST: V over TPM. That movie was a stinking turd and GL should be fucking ashamed of himself. AOTC on the other hand light years better but nowhere in the same ball park as OT.

As I always say, admit it you DVD owners, you watch TPM SOLELY for the lightsaber duel (which I consider the best duel in SW...tied perhaps with ESB's duel. There was so much...energy in that duel...still send shivers up my spine when I watch it.)
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Post by Vympel »

Stravo wrote:
As I always say, admit it you DVD owners, you watch TPM SOLELY for the lightsaber duel (which I consider the best duel in SW...tied perhaps with ESB's duel. There was so much...energy in that duel...still send shivers up my spine when I watch it.)

Heck, I don't even *own* the DVD, I despise TPM that much. ST:V is a far superior film.
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Post by Crown »

My question when watching Nemisis (to bring the thread back on topic), was why oh why was The Scimitar cloaked during its engagement with The Enterprise? Please be kind, you all know that I am a ST n00b and I saw this movie once ages ago, but I got the impression that it was hugely more powerful than The Enterprise, like at least a 2:1 ratio.

So why were they cloaked? :wtf: What the fuck were they scared of? Can the Romulans for some unkown genetic fucked up reason, desing super weapons, super cloaks but no shields to match? Well? If they had 'such an impressive arsenal' doesn't it seem reasonable that they would have a comparitively impressive shield system?

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Post by Crown »

Stravo wrote:Still say that it was better than TPM.
I contest that. While TPM was most assuredly a dissapointment at the time, looking back it did star an 8 year old's journey, so it was suitably written.
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Post by Sea Skimmer »

They lost 30% of there shields to the E-E firing a single step above random. Without cloak they likely could have pounded down the shields in a fraction of the time, but might have suffered damage that could not be repaired to the cloak or another system. With more Federation ships close at hand thats not somthing you want to risk.
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Post by Stravo »

Besides, you take any advantage you can get in combat. Did the B-52's NEED to carpet bomb Iraqi positions when American armor and equipment was so much more superior. Nope, but why not? Same principle, you use whatever advantage you have in combat.
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Post by Stravo »

Crown wrote:
Stravo wrote:Still say that it was better than TPM.
I contest that. While TPM was most assuredly a dissapointment at the time, looking back it did star an 8 year old's journey, so it was suitably written.
Crown, surely Anakin's "Yippee!" induced some form of epileptic fit or at the very least a ministroke. I've seen children's films depicting an 8yr old's journey FAR superior to this film and ona far smaller budget. This movie was HORRID.

If you're going to focus you're movie on an 8yr old...make sure the little fucker can ACT.
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Post by kmart »

Crown wrote:
Stravo wrote:Still say that it was better than TPM.
I contest that. While TPM was most assuredly a dissapointment at the time, looking back it did star an 8 year old's journey, so it was suitably written.
Just cuz it starred an 8 year old doesn't mean it had to be pitched at audiences with 8 year old minds.

The first couple SW films, even though they aren't anything revolutionary, were at least pitched at teenagers and above, but picked up kiddies as well. By talking down to the lowest common denominator (as well as, IMO, being tremendously stupid in plotting and execution), the last few SW films have alienated a lot of the audience.

Lucas could probably learn from some of the so-called kiddie animated films like SHREK, which in theory are aimed at pre-teens, but they do more than that: like many past successful cartoons, they go well beyond the target audience by being smartly written to snare grown-ups.
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