Matrix Reloaded Discussion [Spoilers, Matrix Reloaded]

zombie84 · Post by **zombie84** » 2003-05-29 02:11pm

Because the transmitters, and all the other hardware Neo has, is connected directly to his brain it makes absolute sense that he would "Feel" them. The sentinels suspend in mid-air for a moment before collapsing because they can hover--we see them suspending themselves stationary all the time.

I dont know why you cant accept that Neo has some sort of transmitter device buried in all that computer hardware that is permenantly attached to his brain. Your argument hangs on this one thing, and this little thing is something that is not difficult to swallow. The idea of a second matrix, both from a logical and a storytelling point of view, is absurd.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-05-29 02:33pm

zombie84 wrote:Because the transmitters, and all the other hardware Neo has, is connected directly to his brain it makes absolute sense that he would "Feel" them. The sentinels suspend in mid-air for a moment before collapsing because they can hover--we see them suspending themselves stationary all the time.

I dont know why you cant accept that Neo has some sort of transmitter device buried in all that computer hardware that is permenantly attached to his brain. Your argument hangs on this one thing, and this little thing is something that is not difficult to swallow. The idea of a second matrix, both from a logical and a storytelling point of view, is absurd.

Doesn't matter. You're making the Grand Canyon-leaping-of-logic that a fucking socket or intravenous adaptor is a transmitter which can process human will into code, transmit this, override their security protocols and override their commands and simply shut things down. And it still doesn't explain how he felt them, it wasn't as if they'd be transmitting their presence to everyone around.

Occam's Razor. Plugs and IVs have no evidence of suddenly becoming transmitters. There is no reason for it to be a transmitter. This is exactly like DarkStar claiming there had to be technobabble shutting off the Scimitar's shields because he didn't want to admit that the Enterprise just flew through. Its a bullshit claim simply invented and pasted on to defend your pet theory. Your storytelling angle is meaningless, and your claim of "logical" is also bullshit; you have no understanding of Occam's Razor.

Concession Accepted.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-05-29 02:35pm

zombie84 wrote:Because the transmitters, and all the other hardware Neo has, is connected directly to his brain it makes absolute sense that he would "Feel" them. The sentinels suspend in mid-air for a moment before collapsing because they can hover--we see them suspending themselves stationary all the time.

If he somehow transmitted a shutdown order (which has precisely diddly shit to do with Smith and the Matrix, contrary to your wishes), why did static electric discharges spread all over and they simply stop as if running into a wall, but didn't just down their anti-grav? If he ordered them to shut down they should've simply dropped to the ground in mid-flight.

zombie84 · Post by **zombie84** » 2003-05-29 02:59pm

I never said sockets or plugs become transmitter/recievers, although i would say that it is absolutly possible that those things have multiple functions. Your putting words in my mouth. The recievers and such would have to be already there (though, like i said, its possible for certain componets to have multiple functions--my radio can play CD's and my television can access the internet).
If you can accept an idea as out-there as the Matrix and all that happens within it, then this is hardly a stretch of the imagination at all. Because all of the computer components are hardwired and integrated with Neo brain itself, then it would make absolute sense why he would feel them and why he would be able to unconsciously transmit his will through them. That is exactly how the technology of the matrix works so this is not a stretch to accept.

And my storytelling perspective is absolutly valid. The rules change a little when you discuss fiction, simply because the rules do not apply. I know that may not be all that fair on your part, but it is a valid claim nonetheless. The Matrix is a film--certain liberties can be taken and certain things stretched out. Its suspension of belief. Films are not utterly realistic or else they would be boring, and so you have to also consider which option would be best for the film plot-wise. Things have to be logical, but not to the point where they become nitpicky. That is what you are doing. Any viewer in the audience would accept the wireless-transmitter theory and would scoff at the notion that, with a hour or so left in the entire series, everything that preceeded it has been undone.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-05-29 03:13pm

Appeal to Popularity--lots of fallacies--doesn't understand Occam's Razor...

Whatever. They've been shown to be sockets.

The idea they're transmitters (the idea that a socket would double as a transmitter with all the above unlikely neccessary assumptions thereof) is fucking retarded.

It is a tacked-on bullshit assumption used by you to justify which theory you think is better storytelling.

That is not logic or valid reasoning. Like I said, Concession Accepted.

Enricko · Post by **Enricko** » 2003-05-29 03:41pm

Illuminatus Primus, I'm not saying you're a moron or anything, but would you please stop waving the Occam's razor as if it was the end-all argument?!

The principle of parsimony is only relevant in ontology, and while the nature of the Matrix reality is what we're discussing here, don't forget it's a movie, succeptible to leap of logic and inconsistencies. I'm not saying we should throw out all analysis by the window, but only to allow some exceptions when we apply our Universe's Laws to the movie setting.

Your argument against One-Matrix theory seems to be the apparent impossibility of Neo to transmit commands while unplugged.

First: we know that the Matrix accept hacker transmissions from all Zion's ships when they are on a broadcast level.

Second, humans who are born in the Matrix have used their brain to control an avatar in VR, they're accustomed.

Third, Neo was already using non-regular commands to his avatar (what muscles do you need to flex to stop bullets in mid-air?), the Matrix is already like an extension of him, it's not unbelievable for him to instinctively know what commands use to stop the Sentinels.

Fourth, Neo has a freaking plug in his brain that normally transmit all is brain waves to the rest of the Matrix network. It could act as an antenna as a radio can pick up the electric impulses from an unprotected satellite decoder.

This is exactly like DarkStar claiming there had to be technobabble shutting off the Scimitar's shields because he didn't want to admit that the Enterprise just flew through.

I don't know how you fare against that troll in debate, Illuminatus Primus, but don't insult those who believe differently by comparing them to that piss-poor excuse for an human being!!!

Let me tell you that you ARE the poor SOB who cannot grasp the Occam's razor. "Plurality should not be posited without necessity", that the Ockham principle. They're been real world example of electric appliances emitting a strong enough signal able to be pick up by radio. We know that you can access the Matrix when you're at a transmission level. The cranial plug is design as an I/O port for the mind. Conclusion: Neo is special enough to have his powerful brain of his tramsmitting command directly to the Matrix or the Sentinels.

The Second-Matrix theory presuppose that everything we saw of Zion is false, a virtual reality construct. I speak only for myself, but that is an example of an unnecessary hypothesis... Occam is not on your side!

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-05-29 04:01pm

Enricko wrote:Fourth, Neo has a freaking plug in his brain that normally transmit all is brain waves to the rest of the Matrix network. It could act as an antenna as a radio can pick up the electric impulses from an unprotected satellite decoder.

I rest my case.

Enricko · Post by **Enricko** » 2003-05-29 04:21pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
Enricko wrote:Fourth, Neo has a freaking plug in his brain that normally transmit all is brain waves to the rest of the Matrix network. It could act as an antenna as a radio can pick up the electric impulses from an unprotected satellite decoder.

I rest my case.

You mean "concession accepted"?

That kind of incident happened when the Royal Canadian Air Force noticed that TV satellite decoders using hacked cards (those have a big appartus so you can download codes to descramble the signal from Internet, hence you can't close the flip on the decoder box) emitted the same signal as a distress beacon. The inner working of an electronical devices can produce interferences.

Of course, in the Matrix case, a human brain has not enough electricity to broadcast, even with an antenna, but we are in presence of the same Universe where people really think you can use a human body as a battery!

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2003-05-29 04:34pm

Aww monkey cocks! My post was deleted...well i said ...

What if the architect was just an elaborate defense mechanism of the source?

It distracted neo long enough to make a simulation of where the nebuchadnezzar was, and did noone else notice how neo said it felt different? It was just another level, a defense made by the source for self preservation.

Enricko · Post by **Enricko** » 2003-05-29 04:44pm

Rye wrote:Aww monkey cocks! My post was deleted...well i said ...

What if the architect was just an elaborate defense mechanism of the source?

It distracted neo long enough to make a simulation of where the nebuchadnezzar was, and did noone else notice how neo said it felt different? It was just another level, a defense made by the source for self preservation.

It could be, but most of what the Architect told Neo fit what the Zionists know of their past. That the One arrived and liberated the first ones among them, who then formed Zion...

Post by **weemadando** » 2003-05-30 02:31am

Maybe the real world is a second layer of the Matrix and the machines aren't aware of this fact.

If humanity built the Matrix as some believe to preserve themselves, then "created" AI within it...

So, I hear you asking, why don't people jump from building to building in "the real world". I ask you: "Would you?" They *think* its the real world and therefore they don't try that shit. But its likely that the same shit applies given Neo's actions.

D.Turtle · Post by **D.Turtle** » 2003-05-30 04:18am

And nobody thinks that the Matrix is the real world?
Even people who think that the Matrix is the real world have been able to escape from the Matrix for short periods of time (see the Animatrix epsiode "World Record").

And I repeat: When I know of the existance of something like the Matrix, the FIRST thing you do is to check if that is not another layer of the Matrix.
And before you ask: How?
Simply by trying for example to bend a spoon. If you can do it in the Matrix, then you can do it in another layer of the Matrix.
And dont come with this bullshit about people being to busy in Zion to be able to check if that is another layer of the Matrix. People are very busy in the Matrix too - and still find out about the Matrix ("World Record", "Beyond"). And the people aren't busy 24/7 in Zion. They have lots of spare time to play with their kids, talk about machines & humans, praise Neo like a God, etc.

One last question: Is it so implausible to believe that the Machines would retain some kind of connection to escaped Humans, even when not directly connected to the Matrix? Is it so implausible to have some kind of transmitter/receiver in your brain (in the year 2600 or so)?

You pretty much have two choices: Everything is a lie nothing is real, it could all be a kids dream.
Or: The different programs are telling the truth/parts of the truth.
On other thing: If you watch Matrix: Revisited, or any other interviews with people about the Matrix - They ALWAYS talk about the Matrix and the real world. If you watch the Revolutions Trailer (Game or Movie) - there is NOTHING to suggest that the real world isnt real.

One more thing: The Oracle tells Niobe (in Enter The Matrix) that Neo is "caught between your world and our world". Nothing suggests that he went up to the next layer of the Matrix.

And about Occam's razor: There is exactly ONE element that was added: The ability to transmit something without being directly connected to the Matrix (it doesnt mean that a socket turns into a transmitter, it means that the socket always was also a transmitter).
In "Matrix" we see Agents controlling Machines in the real world (or in the Zion world for those who believe in the Matrix in a Matrix in a Matrix in a Matrix ... theory).

About the "hitting the wall" - maybe the electrical surges we see were the outer signs of the 'battle' being fought within the Sentinels between Neo and the machines over control of them. Once Neo won, they dropped to the ground totally shut down (as you think they should have).

@Sir Sirius: Neo believed the Architect, because, to his knowledge, no Program has lied to him so far.

D.Turtle · Post by **D.Turtle** » 2003-05-30 05:49am

Hmm, no edit :/

Anyway: Two more things:

First of all: One thing that supports the supposition, that there is some kind of connection to the brain even when not directly connected to the Matrix:
The dreams Neo has.

And the other: In order for the Matrix in a matrix theory to be correct, it REQUIRES that NOBODY, not ONE person, in Zion finds out the truth. It REQUIRES that NOBODY, not ONE person, tries to find out if Zion is real. It REQUIRES, in other words, that all the freed people are complete IDIOTS who cant even imagine that there could be something like a second layer to the Matrix.
How likely is that?!

Or: to use your way of saying things Illuminatus Primus: the idea that in a population of 250,000 people (who ALL know that it is possible to create something like the Matrix, that it is possible to virtually create a Virtual Reality that seems completely real) there isn't a SINGLE person who tries to check if the Zion world is real, IOW not another layer of the Matrix, is fucking retarded.
It is a tacked-on bullshit assumption used by you to justify which theory you think is more likely.

I'm gone now for a vacation, but I think that when I come back in one and a half weeks your Wall of Ignorance, almost as thick as Darkstar's, will still be standing tall.

Wedge · Post by **Wedge** » 2003-05-31 12:17am

I totally agree with zombie84, Zion IS the real word. I think he and D.Turtle have explained it well.
As for what makes Neo different from the other "ONE"s, his love for Trinity and what accured with Smith.

What I truly don't understand at all is this:
Do the Agents (smith) know the truth about what happens with the Matrix and Zion?
I don't think so, because if they did, they wouldn't try to kill Neo.
In case they don't know, why not? (to try to make it seem more real? but if agent Smith would have known the truth he wouldn't got "crazy", and the agents still would do their work efficiently, I mean come on their are machines/programms!)

Anarchist Bunny · Post by **Anarchist Bunny** » 2003-05-31 10:49am

One thing, I kind of lost track of this debate, but the decision to reject the matrix is a subconcious one, and fighting the machines in a second level matrix wouldn't distract them from a subconcious descion. At the very least aonther .01% would reject it.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-06-01 01:42pm

interesting theory I heard at camp - the one can eventually become the architect. or, smith is the one, because he also woke up under his own power.

and, for those who say zion is real- who keeps rebuilding it, and why? the agents dont seem to know there has been more then one.

Hobot · Post by **Hobot** » 2003-06-01 03:45pm

Enforcer Talen wrote:and, for those who say zion is real- who keeps rebuilding it, and why? the agents dont seem to know there has been more then one.

Did you even watch the movie?

irishmick79 · Post by **irishmick79** » 2003-06-01 05:53pm

So, what if each individual human had it's own individual program within the Matrix? If each human had a program, that would allow the matrix to take control of the mind when it needed to, like for instance when the Agents take over a body. It would also allow the matrix to tailor make the environment more specifically to the person it's trying to imprison.

If a mind broke free, hacking into that individual program might be the source of the freed mind's powers. If those outside the matrix are more aware of their program within the matrix, either subconsiously or much more directly, than it seems that they could use their minds to more directly affect the workings of that program within the Matrix.
.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-06-01 09:07pm

Hobot wrote:
Enforcer Talen wrote:and, for those who say zion is real- who keeps rebuilding it, and why? the agents dont seem to know there has been more then one.
Did you even watch the movie?

considering my 30 posts in this thread, I think that answer is fairly obvious

zombie84 · Post by **zombie84** » 2003-06-02 12:01am

Well, to answer your question, Zion is provided for the humans by the machines. Its never destroyed--like Morpheus says, one sentinel for every human being in Zion. Zion would be left in as intact a way as possible so that it doesnt need to be rebuilt. Then when the One chooses 23 people, they're (assumingly) dropped off in Zion with the prophecy legend.

Hobot · Post by **Hobot** » 2003-06-02 01:55am

Enforcer Talen wrote:
Hobot wrote:
Enforcer Talen wrote:and, for those who say zion is real- who keeps rebuilding it, and why? the agents dont seem to know there has been more then one.
Did you even watch the movie?
considering my 30 posts in this thread, I think that answer is fairly obvious

I think you must have slept through some of it then...

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-06-02 03:23am

zombie84 wrote:Well, to answer your question, Zion is provided for the humans by the machines. Its never destroyed--like Morpheus says, one sentinel for every human being in Zion. Zion would be left in as intact a way as possible so that it doesnt need to be rebuilt. Then when the One chooses 23 people, they're (assumingly) dropped off in Zion with the prophecy legend.

the architect did state that its been destroyed 6 times - and sentinels, as per movie 1, are not seen to keep the real estate nice and pretty.

Post by **Beowulf** » 2003-06-02 04:13pm

Enforcer Talen wrote:
zombie84 wrote:Well, to answer your question, Zion is provided for the humans by the machines. Its never destroyed--like Morpheus says, one sentinel for every human being in Zion. Zion would be left in as intact a way as possible so that it doesnt need to be rebuilt. Then when the One chooses 23 people, they're (assumingly) dropped off in Zion with the prophecy legend.
the architect did state that its been destroyed 6 times - and sentinels, as per movie 1, are not seen to keep the real estate nice and pretty.

Neo is the 6th One. Zion must therefore have been destroyed 5 times. Not that it would make a large difference.

Shadow WarChief · Post by **Shadow WarChief** » 2003-06-03 08:25pm

Hmmm......a thought just came to me....

Hypotehtically speaking the real world is another matrix. But here's the thing– what if it was always a matrix?

What if the humans of the second renaissance were in a matrix yet didn't know it, then created machines within the matrix who thought that the matrix was the real world. Therefore, when the machines of the matrix triumphed over humanity, they built the matrix to seperate them from what they thought was the real world but was actually a matrix. Thus, the machines are just as enslaved as the humans.
.
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It's an interesting "what if".

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-06-03 08:46pm

isnt that what we've been saying for a while?