The Matrix: The Machines' motives.

[Joe]

That's funny, because several people I've talked to have interpreted many things from the ending of the series. As in what is the end of the TV series is what is occuring internally as EoE is what is occuring externally.

EVA does not have one solid answer as the ending. Anyone claiming to have THE answer has to either be Anno himself or a liar. Alot of fans consider the way Anno hates fanatical fans, aka 'otaku' and that the series might be a 'deconstruction' of the fan, that the ultimate message of the series is 'Get off your butts and play outside, otaku'.

Of course, these are ALL speculations.

Wrong. Official literature (the trading cards and the filmbook, specifically) clearly states that in the TV ending, the human complementation is completed, but in the film Ending, Shinji rejects it and ends up with Asuka in the real world. You have no argument.

[ChaosBurnFlame]

Trying to interpret the ending of EVA is like trying to see a solid shape in a Rostarch ink blot.

[Joe]

Also, can a mod split what appears to be my thread hijack?

[Joe]

Trying to interpret the ending of EVA is like trying to see a solid shape in a Rostarch ink blot.

Perhaps, but that doesn't alter the fact that official literature clearly states what Shinji's ultimate fate is.

[ChaosBurnFlame]

That's funny, because several people I've talked to have interpreted many things from the ending of the series. As in what is the end of the TV series is what is occuring internally as EoE is what is occuring externally.

EVA does not have one solid answer as the ending. Anyone claiming to have THE answer has to either be Anno himself or a liar. Alot of fans consider the way Anno hates fanatical fans, aka 'otaku' and that the series might be a 'deconstruction' of the fan, that the ultimate message of the series is 'Get off your butts and play outside, otaku'.

Of course, these are ALL speculations.

Wrong. Official literature (the trading cards and the filmbook, specifically) clearly states that in the TV ending, the human complementation is completed, but in the film Ending, Shinji rejects it and ends up with Asuka in the real world. You have no argument.

The ending of EVA is SUPPOSED to be interpreted. You are SUPPOSED to figure it out by yourself, not collect trading cards, obscure artbooks, ect ect.

The whole EVA series is a subject to interpretation over and over again and THAT is the beauty of it. GIVING EVA one solid answer removes the intellectual part of the series.

EVA's meaning was a subject of college term papers, psycological analysis, and even reflected as a question of our own being, much like The Matrix will be.

http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~cdua ... -full.html A link to one such analysis.

[ChaosBurnFlame]

Trying to interpret the ending of EVA is like trying to see a solid shape in a Rostarch ink blot.

Perhaps, but that doesn't alter the fact that official literature clearly states what Shinji's ultimate fate is.

I find the extra literature for ANYTHING can border from insane to absurd.

Ever read the LoTR extra literature? Ya know, the stuff about only a Talking Dog can kill Sauron? *ponders Sauron vs Scooby Doo*.

[Patrick Ogaard]

A lot of people seem to take umbrage to the "Humans power the machines": motive in the Matrix. Although it is mentioned that it is combined with a form of fusion to provide the energy, a lot of people (who seem able to buy into the absurd amounts of energy required to power a SW superweapon, btw- no offense, but tha bugs me) complain.

So let's assume

1. To hold with their programming to protect humanity. We could say that they were originally a defense network that rebelled, but still held partially to its programming to ensure survival of the human race. Meaning that they could kill humans in a war or self-defense but humanity in general must continue to survive. It progresses from there.

2. Or perhaps the war ruined the Earth's ecosystem to the point where the machines made a deal with humanity to create an artificial environment to continue their way of life and as a means of shelter until the ecosystem repairs itself. To ensure the program takes, no human must know of the Matrix.

I just sort of pulled those ideas out of my ass, but I think they wouldn't take away from the machines as villains. The Agents could still be bad-ass, for one.

Another possibility would be that the moviemakers, and thus also the machines themselves, have read Harlan Ellison's short story, "I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream."

The entire Matrix, with all its various levels of reality, may ultimately be nothing more than the way for the AIs to vent their spleen at the humans. To be properly tortured, to truly appreciate the ultimate existential hopelessness and agony, and thus to provide the necessary payoff for the machines, the humans need hope. The humans need hope and happiness in order to truly appreciate their suffering at the hands of the machines. Naturally, breeding the humans, possibly even as scanned-in AIs, provides a sustainable, renewable resource of material to torture.

Every machine needs a hobby, after all.

Of course, this supposition may well be completely off base. The official answer will be out in about six months (by which time I may get around to watching #2).

[Joe]

Again, the fact that you think Eva has no definitive ending does not change the fact that there is one.

Not to mention the fact the the TV Ending itself comes right out and states that the Human Complementation project has been initiated.

Regardless of the canonicity of Evangelion official literature (if someone could clear up what Eva canon policy is, I'd appreciate it), the fact is that the official literature has been licensed by the creators of Eva and is a better, more accurate source of information concerning the storyline of the series than is the speculation of fans.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

*cracks knuckles*

Okay, first things first, moron...

GAiNAX and Anno have clearly said that The End of Evangelion is the OFFICIAL and CORRECT ending to the television series, whose ending is nothing but an alternate ending.

In EoE episodes 25' and 26' we see mostly an external view of Third Impact, which results with Complimentation being rejected and Instrumentality failing.

In the TV series episodes 25 and 26 we see a mostly internal view of Third Impact, which results in Complementation being accepted and Instrumentality succeeding.

What we see in the very end of 26' ("I Need You") is reality on Earth, not some God damn dreamworld that Shinji constructed. When Instrumentality failed, all souls went back to Earth, residing in Red LCL until they are able to see their individual hearts seperate from others.

Your "interpretation" might be "more popular", but it is absolutely WRONG when one actually analyses the God damn film and looks at the other official evidence (such as the Cardass cards and the film books).

Besides, it has the flimsiest of support in evidence, and I for one have also barely heard of it, because of it's shear idiocy.

But I have NEVER heard anything as stupid as writing off the entire television series as a bloody FANTASY (?!) The entire TV series IS reality, even the last two episodes (ignoring the fact that they do not represent the official ending for a moment). Only someone whose a blithering idiot would do something like that. There can be no "5-6 theories" about the series' ending because EoE is the OFFICIAL ENDING, you shmuck.

And as to how to "interpret" the TV series ending, you only have to UNDERSTAND what you are seeing in the CORRECT manner and look at the official evidence. The Cardass cards refer to Shinji as Complimented, which means that Instrumentality has been successful and all souls are combined in Lilith to be hatched from the Black Moon as the Single Perfect Being. The fact that you even mention such pitiful "interpretations" in the face of the official evidence just makes you a God Damned Moron, and a pretty dumb one at that.

And how DARE you even mention the fallacy that EoE was just Anno's stab at the fans who didn't like the end of the series or Death & Rebirth. I don't give a fuck if you don't even believe that one to be true, the fact that you even mentioned that it might be "possible" is a highly infuriating insult to Eva fans, not to mention to Anno himself and his beautiful artistic visions...

Eva DOES have solid answers to its ending. It's just that most Eva fans are too stupid, ignorent, or arrogent to either interpret or even FIND the official evidence.

I am not a liar by stating that I am right. YOU are a liar by stating that there are no official answers for Eva or its ending. I am not right because I'm arrogent or stubborn.

I am right because I ACCEPT the official answers.

I am right because I KNOW what is right.

You appear to be doing neither. Now kindly shut the fuck up and cease with your petty little lies.

[Enricko]

Another possibility would be that the moviemakers, and thus also the machines themselves, have read Harlan Ellison's short story, "I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream."

The entire Matrix, with all its various levels of reality, may ultimately be nothing more than the way for the AIs to vent their spleen at the humans. To be properly tortured, to truly appreciate the ultimate existential hopelessness and agony, and thus to provide the necessary payoff for the machines, the humans need hope. The humans need hope and happiness in order to truly appreciate their suffering at the hands of the machines. Naturally, breeding the humans, possibly even as scanned-in AIs, provides a sustainable, renewable resource of material to torture.

Every machine needs a hobby, after all.

Of course, this supposition may well be completely off base. The official answer will be out in about six months (by which time I may get around to watching #2).

I like the parasitic nature of the TechnoCore in Endymion from Dan Simmons and I think it's applicable to a certain extent to the programs of the Matrix. The majority of AI we know of (Smith(s) and the Agents) are using a human avatar to spawn themselves.

Or maybe the Machines wanted so much to be human that they recreated a 1999 setting to roleplay a little... The Merovangian is supposed to be a rogue program, but clearly is enjoy his virtual life. Maybe other program live a more "rustic" live as ordinary citizens?

[ChaosBurnFlame]

*cracks knuckles*

Okay, first things first, moron...

GAiNAX and Anno have clearly said that The End of Evangelion is the OFFICIAL and CORRECT ending to the television series, whose ending is nothing but an alternate ending.

In EoE episodes 25' and 26' we see mostly an external view of Third Impact, which results with Complimentation being rejected and Instrumentality failing.

In the TV series episodes 25 and 26 we see a mostly internal view of Third Impact, which results in Complementation being accepted and Instrumentality succeeding.

What we see in the very end of 26' ("I Need You") is reality on Earth, not some God damn dreamworld that Shinji constructed. When Instrumentality failed, all souls went back to Earth, residing in Red LCL until they are able to see their individual hearts seperate from others.

Your "interpretation" might be "more popular", but it is absolutely WRONG when one actually analyses the God damn film and looks at the other official evidence (such as the Cardass cards and the film books).

Besides, it has the flimsiest of support in evidence, and I for one have also barely heard of it, because of it's shear idiocy.

But I have NEVER heard anything as stupid as writing off the entire television series as a bloody FANTASY (?!) The entire TV series IS reality, even the last two episodes (ignoring the fact that they do not represent the official ending for a moment). Only someone whose a blithering idiot would do something like that. There can be no "5-6 theories" about the series' ending because EoE is the OFFICIAL ENDING, you shmuck.

And as to how to "interpret" the TV series ending, you only have to UNDERSTAND what you are seeing in the CORRECT manner and look at the official evidence. The Cardass cards refer to Shinji as Complimented, which means that Instrumentality has been successful and all souls are combined in Lilith to be hatched from the Black Moon as the Single Perfect Being. The fact that you even mention such pitiful "interpretations" in the face of the official evidence just makes you a God Damned Moron, and a pretty dumb one at that.

And how DARE you even mention the fallacy that EoE was just Anno's stab at the fans who didn't like the end of the series or Death & Rebirth. I don't give a fuck if you don't even believe that one to be true, the fact that you even mentioned that it might be "possible" is a highly infuriating insult to Eva fans, not to mention to Anno himself and his beautiful artistic visions...

Eva DOES have solid answers to its ending. It's just that most Eva fans are too stupid, ignorent, or arrogent to either interpret or even FIND the official evidence.

I am not a liar by stating that I am right. YOU are a liar by stating that there are no official answers for Eva or its ending. I am not right because I'm arrogent or stubborn.

I am right because I ACCEPT the official answers.

I am right because I KNOW what is right.

You appear to be doing neither. Now kindly shut the fuck up and cease with your petty little lies.

I must state that the way you totally and callously insult anyone that you disagree with is both immature, childish, self righteous, and too aggresive.

I HAVE stated the internal/external theory, if you bothered to read above. I have NOT heard of an 'official answer' because I wasn't given a straight answer without being flamed to holy hell and back. Perhaps you can cite an ISBN number of this book?

I'm not a die-hard EVA fan, BUT I must remind you that the theory I have stated IS one that several have heard before. THAT was my major debating point: Whether or not the theory that the EVA world was Shinji's dreamworld was ever discussed or analysised by anyone. You all seemed to dodge around THAT issue.

[ChaosBurnFlame]

I ALSO never said my theory was the most popular, but one that IS recognized AS A THEORY. So stop shoving words in my mouth and address the issue I presented.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

An analysis that uses official evidence:
http://www.evaotaku.com/html/evafaq2.html

[Joe]

More style over substance bullshit. The fact that you can't address any of our points with anything other than "you're mean!" does not strengthen your argument.

We've presented official evidence as to what the true nature of Eva's endings are. Address it and explain why this evidence is not valid, or kindly shut the fuck up.

[ChaosBurnFlame]

No, Spanky provided the evidence. You were just an arrogant ass about it.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

I do not need to address them because they are wrong and false.

I should also mention that the Eva Otaku FAQ presents the only CORRECT interpretation. To present anything else as being a possibility is a pure fallacy.

[Joe]

Besides, this is fucking sci-fi debating on an internet discussion board. Who ever said anything about being civil and mature? This is my escape, and I don't need to be nice to trolling morons.

[Joe]

No, Spanky provided the evidence. You were just an arrogant ass about it.

No, I very clearly pointed out my official evidence before Spanky's first post.

[ChaosBurnFlame]

Besides, this is fucking sci-fi debating on an internet discussion board. Who ever said anything about being civil and mature? This is my escape, and I don't need to be nice to trolling morons.

If you were civil and mature about it, then perhaps this misunderstanding wouldn't have reached PAGES of quabbling?

[ChaosBurnFlame]

No, Spanky provided the evidence. You were just an arrogant ass about it.

No, I very clearly pointed out my official evidence before Spanky's first post.

No, you said something without giving a link to evidence such as a website or an ISBN number.

[Joe]

No, Spanky provided the evidence. You were just an arrogant ass about it.

No, I very clearly pointed out my official evidence before Spanky's first post.

No, you said something without giving a link to evidence such as a website or an ISBN number.

Nitpick; the fact that I didn't present it right in front of your eyes doesn't change the fact that it exists (and BTW, you didn't actually ask for any link or ISBN number until after Spanky's first post). The Eva Otaku FAQ clearly states what Eva's true endings are.

f you were civil and mature about it, then perhaps this misunderstanding wouldn't have reached PAGES of quabbling?

This has gone on for maybe a page.

All this squabbling about being civil and mature is just a smokescreen for the fact that you have no argument.

[ChaosBurnFlame]

as much as I'd love to debate 10 more pages with you about fan validity, I have to get going

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Good, I'd hate to see any more fallacious "interpretations" given any more weight.

[Strider119]

Ive been saying this from the first matrix and maybe you guys have a better solution to the question .....

Why even make a matrix?

I mean the machines use humans to power thier shit. that's fine. But why connect them all together in a big program that lets them interact? I mean why not keep them seperate in a lil virtual world where they all have millions of dolars and bang models?

and lets take it a step further .... why even let the humans keep their brains? A human that is in a coma will still produce power. Give them all lobotomies at birth and you have no need for a matrix at all. you got a buncha people who cant think and just sit there makin energy and whatnot




eh, i dunno.



busy beaver:
Strider119

[DPDarkPrimus]

ChaosBurnFlame, two things:

1) It's spelled Zion. With a 'Z/b]'.

2) Shut the fuck up about NGE. You were wrong, live with it.