Who wins in this battle?

[Col. Crackpot]

i think we are all going into obnoxious warsie mode. lets take a step back. the feddies have what? 500 ships and this is an assault on earth, so there is space dock as well.

if every fed ship only got off only 1 photon on the first salvo that would be 500 x 64 megatons (which is the low end. IIRC mike's calcs are 64-128MT)= 32,000 megatons total yield or 320 gigatons (high end using the 128MT would be 64,000MT or 640GT) but they would get off far more than one torpedo per ship per salvo. christ, even an old excelsior can fire at least 4 from it's 4 forward tubes. so even if the fed's can only fire 4 torps per ship per salvo that is 2000 torpedoes! 2000 x 64= 128,000 megatons o2 1280 GT (high end being 256,000 MT or 2560 GT) this is almost the level of a VSD broadside. and all of this still doesn't factor in: phasers of the torpedo firing ships. Phasers and Torpedos launched from spacedock and the peregines.

this will not be a cakewalk for the ISD. if it does pull this operation off, it will need extensive repairs, unavailable in this galaxy and would be in an ever worse a situation. not only is it far from home, but it is far from home and damaged.

[Darth Servo]

This would never happen. Starfleet has demonstrated it can control the Klingons, and I doubt the Klingons would just decide to shoot at the ISD. They arent that bloodthirsty.

Starfleet would help the ISD get home, the ISD crew would be grateful and leave, everybody's happy.

That doesn't answer the question. The question is who would win the fight.

[Darth Servo]

if every fed ship only got off only 1 photon on the first salvo that would be 500 x 64 megatons (which is the low end. IIRC mike's calcs are 64-128MT)= 32,000 megatons total yield or 320 gigatons (high end using the 128MT would be 64,000MT or 640GT) but they would get off far more than one torpedo per ship per salvo. christ, even an old excelsior can fire at least 4 from it's 4 forward tubes. so even if the fed's can only fire 4 torps per ship per salvo that is 2000 torpedoes! 2000 x 64= 128,000 megatons o2 1280 GT (high end being 256,000 MT or 2560 GT) this is almost the level of a VSD broadside. and all of this still doesn't factor in: phasers of the torpedo firing ships. Phasers and Torpedos launched from spacedock and the peregines.

The problem is you're using the absolute HIGHEST known figures for Trek weapons and assuming they all hit. Justify both of these assumptions.

[TurboPhaser]

This would never happen. Starfleet has demonstrated it can control the Klingons, and I doubt the Klingons would just decide to shoot at the ISD. They arent that bloodthirsty.

Starfleet would help the ISD get home, the ISD crew would be grateful and leave, everybody's happy.

That doesn't answer the question. The question is who would win the fight.

I know, i know.

Ok then:

While Starfleet ships are inferior to ISD's, in this situation of 500 Fed ships plus Orbital weapons and fighters, I believe the ISD will lose. Starfleet would take heavy losses of course, but in the end the enourmous amount of collected firepower would take its toll on the ISD.

BTW, those are good calculations above. They seem quite accurate.

[Col. Crackpot]

if every fed ship only got off only 1 photon on the first salvo that would be 500 x 64 megatons (which is the low end. IIRC mike's calcs are 64-128MT)= 32,000 megatons total yield or 320 gigatons (high end using the 128MT would be 64,000MT or 640GT) but they would get off far more than one torpedo per ship per salvo. christ, even an old excelsior can fire at least 4 from it's 4 forward tubes. so even if the fed's can only fire 4 torps per ship per salvo that is 2000 torpedoes! 2000 x 64= 128,000 megatons o2 1280 GT (high end being 256,000 MT or 2560 GT) this is almost the level of a VSD broadside. and all of this still doesn't factor in: phasers of the torpedo firing ships. Phasers and Torpedos launched from spacedock and the peregines.

The problem is you're using the absolute HIGHEST known figures for Trek weapons and assuming they all hit. Justify both of these assumptions.

a few things, even if we use lower end calcs...say 32 mt, there is a hell of a volume of fire here! i'm not saying starfleet would win, but there are people just brushing off 500 ships and planetary defenses like they were nothing. 500 torpedoesx32mt is 16000 mt. granted, half of that will be wasted exploding into the opposite direction, but repeated salvos will add up. Can the ISD desroy 500 ships, a starbase and a few thousand fighters and shuttles before it incurs moderate to heavy damage? i don't really know..and i don't think her captain will take that risk.

[Ghost Rider]

The reason people say the ISD...is mostly because of range along with other factors.

By the time the federation ships get within hitting range they'll have lost a rather large number of their force, if not all of it.

[Darth Servo]

a few things, even if we use lower end calcs...say 32 mt,

Sorry, but the lower end calcs are in the low kt range.

[Col. Crackpot]

a few things, even if we use lower end calcs...say 32 mt,

Sorry, but the lower end calcs are in the low kt range.

<sigh>

In conclusion, it is clear that a photon torpedo can deliver an absolute maximum of 32 megatons to its target, and the realistic figure will probably be somewhat lower. This energy will strike the target ship in several forms. The energetic gamma rays from the matter/antimatter annihilation will strike the defensive shields directly, but they will also tend to superheat the photon torpedo's casing, which is composed of several hundred kilograms of matter. This superheated matter, as well as energetic charged particles from the matter/antimatter annihilation itself, will strike the defensive shields at high velocities. The superheated matter will also emit large amounts of so-called "thermal radiation" (low-frequency electromagnetic radiation caused by the high temperatures), which will strike the shields and create a brilliant, blinding flash. The effect is very similar to that of a large nuclear fusion explosion.
The overall impact of a photon torpedo on its target is therefore an amount of energy, in the form of superheated matter, gamma radiation, thermal radiation, and highly energetic subatomic particles, which is less than or equal to 32 megatons in quantity for a direct impact, and as little as 10 megatons in quantity for a medium-proximity blast (decreasing with increasing distance, based on the radius beyond which charged pions decay into useless neutrinos). If we use the 74% efficiency estimate derived from the DS9 TM, we can determine that a photon torpedo should deliver roughly 24 megatons for a direct impact and as little as 7 megatons for a medium-proximity blast.

7 megatons seems to be the low end. so the absoulte minimum yield of the absolute minimum number of torpedoes (A LUDICRUSLY LOW 1 PER SHIP) would be 3500 MT. those calcs are for medium proximity blasts. Mike seems to have settled on the 24MT yield for a direct impact after taking waste into account. so 24MT x 500 =120,00 MT . in actuality the fed fleet would fire at the very least 4 photons per ship.... so 2000 x 24 = 4800 effective megatonnes per salvo. that is the minimum yield of the starship mounted torpedos. this does not include phaser fire. any and all fire from the starbase, planetary defenses and fighters. i say again THIS IS NOT A CAKEWALK.

[Ghost Rider]

The ships still have to get in range.

Firepower is cool but given the difference in distance we have seen an ISD fire from vs the standard Federation vessel.

The ISD will be firing from hundreds of KM...knocking ships down while the Feds get into range.

[Col. Crackpot]

The ships still have to get in range.

Firepower is cool but given the difference in distance we have seen an ISD fire from vs the standard Federation vessel.

The ISD will be firing from hundreds of KM...knocking ships down while the Feds get into range.

true, but my concern is: will it pick off enough feddies before it gets seriously damaged. against a fleet of 500 backed by planetary defenses and a starbase full of people defending their homes and families..... even wussboy Riker was willing to commit suicde with the Enterprise to defend earth from the Borg in BoBW 2. how many fed captains would do the same. many.

[Alyrium Denryle]

i think we are all going into obnoxious warsie mode. lets take a step back. the feddies have what? 500 ships and this is an assault on earth, so there is space dock as well.

if every fed ship only got off only 1 photon on the first salvo that would be 500 x 64 megatons (which is the low end. IIRC mike's calcs are 64-128MT)= 32,000 megatons total yield or 320 gigatons (high end using the 128MT would be 64,000MT or 640GT) but they would get off far more than one torpedo per ship per salvo. christ, even an old excelsior can fire at least 4 from it's 4 forward tubes. so even if the fed's can only fire 4 torps per ship per salvo that is 2000 torpedoes! 2000 x 64= 128,000 megatons o2 1280 GT (high end being 256,000 MT or 2560 GT) this is almost the level of a VSD broadside. and all of this still doesn't factor in: phasers of the torpedo firing ships. Phasers and Torpedos launched from spacedock and the peregines.

this will not be a cakewalk for the ISD. if it does pull this operation off, it will need extensive repairs, unavailable in this galaxy and would be in an ever worse a situation. not only is it far from home, but it is far from home and damaged.

Now, you are using the high end trek figs and the low end SW figs....Now if we use Mr. Beans medium end calcs....Places a HTL at 10 teratons and ISD shields in the Petaton range

[TurboPhaser]

The ships still have to get in range.

Firepower is cool but given the difference in distance we have seen an ISD fire from vs the standard Federation vessel.

The ISD will be firing from hundreds of KM...knocking ships down while the Feds get into range.

true, but my concern is: will it pick off enough feddies before it gets seriously damaged. against a fleet of 500 backed by planetary defenses and a starbase full of people defending their homes and families..... even wussboy Riker was willing to commit suicde with the Enterprise to defend earth from the Borg in BoBW 2. how many fed captains would do the same. many.

Yeah, I think ya right. 500 ships, that is an ENOURMOUS amount of ships. And thats excluding fighters and planetary defence satellites and a that mega huge Space dock.

The ISD is facing perhaps 600 targets including fighters etc. Thats far more targets than the ISD can shoot at in one volley.

[Ghost Rider]

But that's taking a certain extrapolation that really doesn't matter.

While it looks good to do so, they have to get within 5-6KM of the vessels before accuratly firing(Sisko has shown he wants to be in Jemmie firing cone to insure hits)

The ISD has shown 10's-100's of KM range in ROTJ.

Literally the ISD would slaughter them on the basis it can remain effectively out of their firing range.

[Col. Crackpot]

But that's taking a certain extrapolation that really doesn't matter.

While it looks good to do so, they have to get within 5-6KM of the vessels before accuratly firing(Sisko has shown he wants to be in Jemmie firing cone to insure hits)

The ISD has shown 10's-100's of KM range in ROTJ.

Literally the ISD would slaughter them on the basis it can remain effectively out of their firing range.

how long does it take to cross a few hundred thousand KM at high sublight? a few seconds? honestly, i can see the ISD picking off a few dozen, maybe more in that time.

[jegs2]

One ISD vs. all those ships? If the attacks on the ISD are sufficiently coordinatad, I don't think it survives. However, I also don't think the Feddies would try to destroy it -- just cripple it and try to board it -- so big a find, popping up on your front porch to say, "Hi," would be a hard prize to pass up by destroying it. Perhaps that tendancy to attempt to capture the ISD would be their undoing, as they wouldn't throw everything they had at the ISD until it was too late.

[Ghost Rider]

Let use the oldest most useless example of WEG(I know they are better but for sake of argument of the lowest end an ISD can bring to bear)

60 TL firing 1 sec per blast...180 ships in just to get to it.

So the firepower it can then bring to bear is even lower.

It would take it 10 secs to destroy the entire force.

[Col. Crackpot]

i think we are all going into obnoxious warsie mode. lets take a step back. the feddies have what? 500 ships and this is an assault on earth, so there is space dock as well.

if every fed ship only got off only 1 photon on the first salvo that would be 500 x 64 megatons (which is the low end. IIRC mike's calcs are 64-128MT)= 32,000 megatons total yield or 320 gigatons (high end using the 128MT would be 64,000MT or 640GT) but they would get off far more than one torpedo per ship per salvo. christ, even an old excelsior can fire at least 4 from it's 4 forward tubes. so even if the fed's can only fire 4 torps per ship per salvo that is 2000 torpedoes! 2000 x 64= 128,000 megatons o2 1280 GT (high end being 256,000 MT or 2560 GT) this is almost the level of a VSD broadside. and all of this still doesn't factor in: phasers of the torpedo firing ships. Phasers and Torpedos launched from spacedock and the peregines.

this will not be a cakewalk for the ISD. if it does pull this operation off, it will need extensive repairs, unavailable in this galaxy and would be in an ever worse a situation. not only is it far from home, but it is far from home and damaged.

Now, you are using the high end trek figs and the low end SW figs....Now if we use Mr. Beans medium end calcs....Places a HTL at 10 teratons and ISD shields in the Petaton range

In conclusion, it is clear that a photon torpedo can deliver an absolute maximum of 32 megatons to its target, and the realistic figure will probably be somewhat lower. This energy will strike the target ship in several forms. The energetic gamma rays from the matter/antimatter annihilation will strike the defensive shields directly, but they will also tend to superheat the photon torpedo's casing, which is composed of several hundred kilograms of matter. This superheated matter, as well as energetic charged particles from the matter/antimatter annihilation itself, will strike the defensive shields at high velocities. The superheated matter will also emit large amounts of so-called "thermal radiation" (low-frequency electromagnetic radiation caused by the high temperatures), which will strike the shields and create a brilliant, blinding flash. The effect is very similar to that of a large nuclear fusion explosion.
The overall impact of a photon torpedo on its target is therefore an amount of energy, in the form of superheated matter, gamma radiation, thermal radiation, and highly energetic subatomic particles, which is less than or equal to 32 megatons in quantity for a direct impact, and as little as 10 megatons in quantity for a medium-proximity blast (decreasing with increasing distance, based on the radius beyond which charged pions decay into useless neutrinos). If we use the 74% efficiency estimate derived from the DS9 TM, we can determine that a photon torpedo should deliver roughly 24 megatons for a direct impact and as little as 7 megatons for a medium-proximity blast.

7 megatons seems to be the low end. so the absoulte minimum yield of the absolute minimum number of torpedoes (A LUDICRUSLY LOW 1 PER SHIP) would be 3500 MT. those calcs are for medium proximity blasts. Mike seems to have settled on the 24MT yield for a direct impact after taking waste into account. so 24MT x 500 =120,00 MT . in actuality the fed fleet would fire at the very least 4 photons per ship.... so 2000 x 24 = 4800 effective megatonnes per salvo. that is the minimum yield of the starship mounted torpedos. this does not include phaser fire. any and all fire from the starbase, planetary defenses and fighters. i say again THIS IS NOT A CAKEWALK.

i'm using mikes calc of 24MT, not the high end calc. i am also using ridiculously low rates of fire for the fed ships. 4 torps per ship/ per volly is a bare minimum based on a low end excelsior class. An akira has 9 forward launchers that fire 4 torps each/per volley. thats 36 torps. Soveriens fire even more, as well as quantums, which i didn't even figure in to the equasion. Nebulas, Galaxies, Cheyannes, Prometheuses, Ambassadors all fire more than 4 per volley. Defiants can fire 4 quantums per volley. Even little Intrepids have 3 double fire forward photorp launchers( 6 per volley)

[TurboPhaser]

Let use the oldest most useless example of WEG(I know they are better but for sake of argument of the lowest end an ISD can bring to bear)

60 TL firing 1 sec per blast...180 ships in just to get to it.

So the firepower it can then bring to bear is even lower.

It would take it 10 secs to destroy the entire force.

I must point out that you are also assuming every shot will hit its target.

A factor of missed shots needs to be calculated in.

[Col. Crackpot]

Let use the oldest most useless example of WEG(I know they are better but for sake of argument of the lowest end an ISD can bring to bear)

60 TL firing 1 sec per blast...180 ships in just to get to it.

So the firepower it can then bring to bear is even lower.

It would take it 10 secs to destroy the entire force.

that's assuming evey shot is a hit. and assuming that that they completely ignore thousands of fighters. it also assumes that the fed ships do not fire torps at warp and use the warp sustainers to extend their range at ftl velocity. thats a lot of assumptions...remember when you ASSUME, you make an ASS out of U and ME.

[TurboPhaser]

Soveriens fire even more, as well as quantums, which i didn't even figure in to the equasion. Nebulas, Galaxies, Cheyannes, Prometheuses, Ambassadors all fire more than 4 per volley. Defiants can fire 4 quantums per volley. Even little Intrepids have 3 double fire forward photorp launchers( 6 per volley)

Galaxy class can fire 12 at once.

[Ghost Rider]

Actually you should also note that I am not accounting for the PT shielding(PT hull as well)

It would take areound 150,000 Torpedos all to hit on their mark at upper end to get rid of 1 PT of shielding.

You've upped to thousands(where did this number come from?)

It still is a matter that they (ISD) can easily hit 5 meter craft(Starfighters) with their TL...a Federation Starship should be no problem.

Also none of this accounts for the ECM the Empire regularly portrays nor the fact that this is assuming it just sits there and doesn't actually keep in pace with getting a little further back even with it's woefully inefficent system.

If such...it can unleash around 128 cannons...and within about 30 second(at most even with poor accuracy) the battlefield will be cleared and it would take actually several seconds for the Federation to come within their particular cone of of fire. They have resorted 500m(Sisko on many examples)...that's 1/2 kilometer to get a guaranteed shot.

The ISD wins this easily

[Col. Crackpot]

Actually you should also note that I am not accounting for the PT shielding(PT hull as well)

It would take areound 150,000 Torpedos all to hit on their mark at upper end to get rid of 1 PT of shielding.

You've upped to thousands(where did this number come from?)

It still is a matter that they (ISD) can easily hit 5 meter craft(Starfighters) with their TL...a Federation Starship should be no problem.

Also none of this accounts for the ECM the Empire regularly portrays nor the fact that this is assuming it just sits there and doesn't actually keep in pace with getting a little further back even with it's woefully inefficent system.

If such...it can unleash around 128 cannons...and within about 30 second(at most even with poor accuracy) the battlefield will be cleared and it would take actually several seconds for the Federation to come within their particular cone of of fire. They have resorted 500m(Sisko on many examples)...that's 1/2 kilometer to get a guaranteed shot.

The ISD wins this easily

i'd like to see a link to this PT calc, cuz i'm not buying it. And why in the hell are you using what you belive to be absolute high end calcs anyway?
and you know, Wars fanboys can wank too, that seems to be what is going on in this thread.

[Ghost Rider]

Give the though that an ISD has to survive a broadside that consists of around 128 200GT cannons at bare minimum...PT is mid range.

Bean stated this well...so get off your ad-hominems and back up how thousands of ships came into being(the original concept being 500 ships)

And that they have shown to miss 600m ships at a about less then 100km range.

Sisko has ordered to get within 500m to hit ships.

So please tell me how I'm wanking again?

[Darth Servo]

Galaxy class can fire 12 at once.

And the ISD can fire over 100 at once.

[TurboPhaser]

Sisko has ordered to get within 500m to hit ships.

So please tell me how I'm wanking again?

Yes, but that was to make absolutley sure the phasers would have maximum effect on the Dominion. It wasnt a targeting problem.

And the ISD can fire over 100 at once.

I know, I was just mentioning that cause Col. Crackpot didnt.