Who wins in this battle?

[Ghost Rider]

Actually my previous example you snipped was the targeting problem.

If you cant hit a captial class ship at that range you're either blind or just dumb.

They've shown this repeatedin DS9 on ships with straight line path plotted.

Also ISD tech has shown to engage in combat within systems to outside of system if the target is large enough, they routinely engage beyond 100KM...to which Lando said to engage point blank which was 10's of KM range.

The ISD has huge advantage even before getting into ECM combat in terms of range.

[Col. Crackpot]

Give the though that an ISD has to survive a broadside that consists of around 128 200GT cannons at bare minimum...PT is mid range.

Bean stated this well...so get off your ad-hominems and back up how thousands of ships came into being(the original concept being 500 ships)

And that they have shown to miss 600m ships at a about less then 100km range.

Sisko has ordered to get within 500m to hit ships.

So please tell me how I'm wanking again?

the scenerio states that the ships are carrying a few perigines each. a few being 4? 5? so thats 2000-2500.

they are all firing at the same 1600m target with topredos. pretty hard to dodge thousands of torpedos coming toward you from all directions

IIRC Sisko was firing at highly manuverable corvette/frigate sized Jem Hadar Fighters, not a massive Star Destroyer.

several volleys of thousands of torpedoes, plus several volleys of thousands of phasers from starships and perigines. plus the starbase. plus whatever fixed defenses are around earth. all of that adds up and would approach the yield of a broadside....exceeding it if enough ships survive to continue firing.

what i am trying to say, and have been trying to say is that this will not be a one sided ass-whomping. the ISD will at the very least get moderately damaged. at the very worst, crippled or destroyed.That fact would discourage her captain from launching this foolish attack in the first place.

[Col. Crackpot]

If you cant hit a captial class ship at that range you're either blind or just dumb.

what about not being able to hit x-wings flying in a staright line throuh a trench in the death star with your turbolasers? these same types of gun emplacements are going to hit ships moving FTL?

[TurboPhaser]

Actually my previous example you snipped was the targeting problem.

If you cant hit a captial class ship at that range you're either blind or just dumb.

They've shown this repeatedin DS9 on ships with straight line path plotted.

Also ISD tech has shown to engage in combat within systems to outside of system if the target is large enough, they routinely engage beyond 100KM...to which Lando said to engage point blank which was 10's of KM range.

The ISD has huge advantage even before getting into ECM combat in terms of range.

Oh, sorry, I didnt realise. I usually just include the part of the quote i'm replying too, to avoid usiing up unnessary space.

I'm guessin you got that 'missing 600m at 100k from Way of the Way of the Warrior? It has been suggested that the missing torps were targeting off-screen ships. This seems fairly logical, though not totally conclusive.

However, in the same battle we saw a torpedo fly between numerous Klingon ships to hit a specific one.

Trek targeting is far from perfect, but I wouldnt say its useless.

[Darth Servo]

7 megatons seems to be the low end. so the absoulte minimum yield of the absolute minimum number of torpedoes (A LUDICRUSLY LOW 1 PER SHIP) would be 3500 MT. those calcs are for medium proximity blasts. Mike seems to have settled on the 24MT yield for a direct impact after taking waste into account. so 24MT x 500 =120,00 MT . in actuality the fed fleet would fire at the very least 4 photons per ship.... so 2000 x 24 = 4800 effective megatonnes per salvo. that is the minimum yield of the starship mounted torpedos. this does not include phaser fire. any and all fire from the starbase, planetary defenses and fighters. i say again THIS IS NOT A CAKEWALK.

7 megatons is the realistic figure based on the information in the Tech Manual which is non-canon speculation. Based on Nemesis, Pegasus and a few other episodes, the estimates get as low as I previously stated.

[Darth Servo]

what about not being able to hit x-wings flying in a staright line throuh a trench in the death star with your turbolasers? these same types of gun emplacements are going to hit ships moving FTL?

Guns that were designed to hit CAP SHIPS and not fighters. And Trek ships never fight FTL.

[Ghost Rider]

You are presuming all the ships get there within firing range as well.

Prove that assumption.

And oh yeah the Trench run...and?

They still hit them given they were a concern and the shielding was enough to protect them or did somehow Luke worrying about the Tower miss your presumptions?

[Col. Crackpot]

7 megatons seems to be the low end. so the absoulte minimum yield of the absolute minimum number of torpedoes (A LUDICRUSLY LOW 1 PER SHIP) would be 3500 MT. those calcs are for medium proximity blasts. Mike seems to have settled on the 24MT yield for a direct impact after taking waste into account. so 24MT x 500 =120,00 MT . in actuality the fed fleet would fire at the very least 4 photons per ship.... so 2000 x 24 = 4800 effective megatonnes per salvo. that is the minimum yield of the starship mounted torpedos. this does not include phaser fire. any and all fire from the starbase, planetary defenses and fighters. i say again THIS IS NOT A CAKEWALK.

7 megatons is the realistic figure based on the information in the Tech Manual which is non-canon speculation. Based on Nemesis, Pegasus and a few other episodes, the estimates get as low as I previously stated.

show me something that states 7 megatons is a realistic calc! a link, some math, anything! not just your impression of what you saw. back it up with either calcs you have, or calcs done by a reputable source. just do something besides speculate!

[Ghost Rider]

The overall impact of a photon torpedo on its target is therefore an amount of energy, in the form of superheated matter, gamma radiation, thermal radiation, and highly energetic subatomic particles, which is less than or equal to 32 megatons in quantity for a direct impact, and as little as 10 megatons in quantity for a medium-proximity blast (decreasing with increasing distance, based on the radius beyond which charged pions decay into useless neutrinos). If we use the 74% efficiency estimate derived from the DS9 TM, we can determine that a photon torpedo should deliver roughly 24 megatons for a direct impact and as little as 7 megatons for a medium-proximity blast.

Is where Mike quantifies the PT yield.

And that is using the TM saying that the Photon Torpedo does 64MT worth of damage...which Pegasus as well as other episodes show much lower calculations.

[Col. Crackpot]

You are presuming all the ships get there within firing range as well.

Prove that assumption.

And oh yeah the Trench run...and?

They still hit them given they were a concern and the shielding was enough to protect them or did somehow Luke worrying about the Tower miss your presumptions?

no im not. i stated that at least several dozen would get waxed on the way in, i just didn't adjuct my calcs, so shave 10-20% off my torp calc. repeated salvos in concert with an equal number of phaser salvos from the hundreds of capships and thousands of fighters add up into the low thousands of gigatons(total) range! more than enough to sufficiently damage an ISD and encourage it to withdraw from an engagement with a numerically superior foe at their homeworld.

[Ghost Rider]

So in it firing 128 cannons at 1 per sec...against ships of 500m in length.

It'll hit with say 95% accuracy.

In the 10 sec to close the gap...they'll have suffered: 1216 ships

Let's say 5 sec: 608

Let's say 3 sec: 364

Let's give 80%...because morons are at the helm.

10 Sec: 1024

5 sec: 512

3 Sec: 307

Out of the heavy ship line up that is around 61% loss at the lowest level...before they are within firing range.

[Col. Crackpot]

So in it firing 128 cannons at 1 per sec...against ships of 500m in length.

It'll hit with say 95% accuracy.

In the 10 sec to close the gap...they'll have suffered: 1216 ships

Let's say 5 sec: 608

Let's say 3 sec: 364

Let's give 80%...because morons are at the helm.

10 Sec: 1024

5 sec: 512

3 Sec: 307

Out of the heavy ship line up that is around 61% loss at the lowest level...before they are within firing range.

when has an ISD ever demonstrated 95% accuracy?

[Ghost Rider]

And at 80% the ISD is still capable of destroying in 3 sec 61% of the oppsing fleets heavy ships.

So let's go abysmal lower at 60%

10 sec: 768

5: 384

3: 230

So please tell me again how the Fed are going to win when at low they are losing half their ships at the 5 sec marker.

[Darth Servo]

when has an ISD ever demonstrated 95% accuracy?

Don't tell me you're going to say all the times they demonstrated lower levels as reliable even though they were obviously trying to CAPTURE the ship and not destroy it.

[Col. Crackpot]

arrrrgghhh!
i did not say 'the feds win' i said that the mission would not be the cakewak it is being made out to be. also, those 128 weapon emplacements, most are of the anti-starfigher variety. There are only 8 heavy turrets, 4 guns apiece.

[Darth Servo]

arrrrgghhh!
i did not say 'the feds win' i said that the mission would not be the cakewak it is being made out to be. also, those 128 weapon emplacements, most are of the anti-starfigher variety. There are only 8 heavy turrets, 4 guns apiece.

And even those anti-starfighter weapons are powerful enough (MT range) to blow Fed ships out of space.

[darthdavid]

Wongs calcs have shown that it would take 100 anti fighter shots to destroy an average feddie vessel. So most of those guns being anti fighter do, infact, matter.

[Darth Servo]

Wongs calcs have shown that it would take 100 anti fighter shots to destroy an average feddie vessel. So most of those guns being anti fighter do, infact, matter.

Wongs calcs are lower limits. The canon AOTC ICS gives them higher values.

[The Silence and I]

Um, the ICS gives such weapons 6 MT per shot. It goes on to say they are not very accurate (From Starwars insider, do they take the info straight from the ICS?). 6 MT is well within the limits of mid-range TNG+ shielding. Then I would point out many weapons on an ISD are not even proper turrets, but effectivly medium artillery size weapons. One shot kills is an inaccurate assumption, based on your ICS.

And 95% accuracy? What!?! Watch ROTJ again. Pay close attention, the Falcon (a 50+m long ship) avoids very close to 100% of the incoming fire--from fighters, ISDs, and the anti-fighter turrets on the DS. Remember that ISD that blows up? Two shots miss it just before... two heavy turbolasers. It was not maneuvering notably.

All guns firing at once? I have never seen such a thing--in any of the movies. I don't remember dozens of turbolasers pouring into hapless Rebel cruisers, or salvos of shots taking out squadrons of fighters. In fact, I don't remember more than a few shots come at one time from any vessel in any of the movies. Remember the huge volume of fire taking out asteroids left and right at Hoth? I don't. I remember several asteroids getting through to the shields, and to the hull itself (While transmitting, yes, but that is all the more reason to step up the ROF--they didn't).

Starwars has impressive firepower and shielding. But their accuracy and broadside densities are not enough to take down 60%+ of the Fed's fleet every few seconds.

As others have said, this is no cakewalk. It is far from an assured Federation victory, but it is not: ISD approaches, and from range picks off 90% of the fleet. The remainder fires for the next 0.000000001 seconds to no effect before destroyed. ISD goes home, the crew laughs about the terrible fun they had.

[Howedar]

Um, the ICS gives such weapons 6 MT per shot. It goes on to say they are not very accurate (From Starwars insider, do they take the info straight from the ICS?).

Not in the ICS.

6 MT is well within the limits of mid-range TNG+ shielding.

Arguable. Nemesis suggests KT-range torpedo weapons, and most of TNG suggests high KT/low MT range. Several 6MT hits would probably destroy a Galaxy.

Then I would point out many weapons on an ISD are not even proper turrets, but effectivly medium artillery size weapons.

Do tell. We see very few of the weapons actually on the ISD.

One shot kills is an inaccurate assumption, based on your ICS.

Potentially, but several-shot kills with antifighter weapons definately are not.

And 95% accuracy? What!?! Watch ROTJ again. Pay close attention, the Falcon (a 50+m long ship) avoids very close to 100% of the incoming fire--from fighters, ISDs, and the anti-fighter turrets on the DS.

Federation starships are an order of magnitude larger. The turrets on the DS were most certainly not antifighter: the Empire doesn't consider one-man fighters much of a threat.

Remember that ISD that blows up? Two shots miss it just before... two heavy turbolasers. It was not maneuvering notably.

Crazy ECM at Endor.

All guns firing at once? I have never seen such a thing--in any of the movies.

It has been explicitly stated to be done at least once in the EU, against Luke Skywalker in an X-wing.

I don't remember dozens of turbolasers pouring into hapless Rebel cruisers, or salvos of shots taking out squadrons of fighters.

Its in the EU. Live with it.

In fact, I don't remember more than a few shots come at one time from any vessel in any of the movies. Remember the huge volume of fire taking out asteroids left and right at Hoth? I don't. I remember several asteroids getting through to the shields, and to the hull itself (While transmitting, yes, but that is all the more reason to step up the ROF--they didn't).

Do you have a point in all this rambling?

Starwars has impressive firepower and shielding. But their accuracy and broadside densities are not enough to take down 60%+ of the Fed's fleet every few seconds.

Maybe, maybe not. Fortunately, it doesn't matter: SW shields are fantastically strong compared to weak-ass Federation weaponry.

As others have said, this is no cakewalk.

It is precisely that.

It is far from an assured Federation victory, but it is not: ISD approaches, and from range picks off 90% of the fleet.

Probably not, the Federation forces could certainly close to weapons range.

The remainder fires for the next 0.000000001 seconds to no effect before destroyed.

Whatever the remnant, this would be exactly the effect. Assuming the ISD's shields are no more powerful than a glorified troop transport, the ISD can ignore a Federation task force all day.

ISD goes home, the crew laughs about the terrible fun they had.

Nah, its probably a pain in the ass to take time to aim at a ship, only to have it blow up from someone else's turret. I bet they'd be pissed.

[The Silence and I]

The Silence and I wrote:
Um, the ICS gives such weapons 6 MT per shot. It goes on to say they are not very accurate (From Starwars insider, do they take the info straight from the ICS?).
Not in the ICS.

What part isn't? I'm almost certain the Acclamater's point defense cannons are 6 MT--so insider added the accuracy part?

Quote:
Then I would point out many weapons on an ISD are not even proper turrets, but effectivly medium artillery size weapons.
Do tell. We see very few of the weapons actually on the ISD.

True enough, but what do we see? A few dozen large turrets, and many, many trench guns. These guns are often limited to the small firing arcs offered by the weapons bays (although not always) and the ones we do see closely are small, field gun-sized pieces (ANH). A similar design was on the DS I, were many smaller guns were not on turrets (these were the targets of Luke's fire).

Quote:
One shot kills is an inaccurate assumption, based on your ICS.
Potentially, but several-shot kills with antifighter weapons definately are not.

Agreed, that was a response to people who assumed one shot from any weapon would kill, and factored it into their calculations.

Quote:
Remember that ISD that blows up? Two shots miss it just before... two heavy turbolasers. It was not maneuvering notably.
Crazy ECM at Endor.

And crazy Federation style targeting it would seem. (Use the visual sensors, they aren't impeded!! Not at that range anyway)

Quote:
All guns firing at once? I have never seen such a thing--in any of the movies.
It has been explicitly stated to be done at least once in the EU, against Luke Skywalker in an X-wing.

I find that hard to swallow. Not because it shouldn't be possible, but because it was never done--even when it would be a really good idea to do so (Hoth). Perhaps vessels were upgraded later?

Quote:
It is far from an assured Federation victory, but it is not: ISD approaches, and from range picks off 90% of the fleet.
Probably not, the Federation forces could certainly close to weapons range.

Agreed, and then some.
_____________________________________

I don't see how this is a cake-walk. The lone ISD is an extremely well shielded target, but it is arguable that Torps have the wattage to affect the shields. Then it is simply how many torps hit. Certainly few are gonna miss such a target at that range--if nothing else they can lock onto the explosions from previous torpedoes--and 500 federation vessels is a lot of torpedoes. Can they destroy the ISD? Maybie, but it would hardly be a "win." Can they damage the ISD? Likely. Will they lose? Likely.

I would expect an average of several torps per ship, simply because there are so many of them that some will survive for guite a while (while some don't even get to fire). Later designs have shown a love for launchers, many launchers, and the Defiants, Sovereigns, Akiras, and to a lesser degree, Galaxies are all torpedo heavy. The multitudes of smaller classes probably have several torps as well, even shuttles and fighters carry smaller torpedoes. After the war and Borg, if earth lacks some kind of defense system it is a sign of utmost stupidity (Ok, this is the federation, but still ).

[Ace Pace]

just a thought, the federation would be compleatly IDIOTIC to attack from all sides, they would set up a single strike at 1 of the sides, probebly the back.

also where did you see 128 guns all firing, even if half of them are on the other side of the ship (unless you are asumming that the fed is going to encircle), at most 60-70% of the guns will be able to bear on the target, less if they are smart and attack from behind.

[Master of Ossus]

just a thought, the federation would be compleatly IDIOTIC to attack from all sides, they would set up a single strike at 1 of the sides, probebly the back.

also where did you see 128 guns all firing, even if half of them are on the other side of the ship (unless you are asumming that the fed is going to encircle), at most 60-70% of the guns will be able to bear on the target, less if they are smart and attack from behind.

The UFP would have difficulty coordinating so many ships in an attack from a single side. They attacked the Borg ship in ST:FC through a glorified encirclement, allowing all of the Borg's weapons to fire (even though they could have easily limited the Borg to being able to open fire with less than half of their weapons, due to the poor geometry involved in the design of the Borg cube).

Moreover, Imperator class vessels and the like are designed so as to maximize the weapons coverage. Almost all of their weapons can fire on the UFP fleet if it covers even 6% of what the ISD can see, and is located in front of the ship.

[Lord Poe]

what about not being able to hit x-wings flying in a staright line throuh a trench in the death star with your turbolasers?

Those were fixed gun emplacements. THe X-wings simply stayed out of the line of fire. You don't put turrets in a trench that you don't expect anyone to actually attack in the first place.

these same types of gun emplacements are going to hit ships moving FTL?

Red Herring. The guns on an ISD aren't made up of only fixed emplacements

[Lord Poe]

I find that hard to swallow. Not because it shouldn't be possible, but because it was never done--even when it would be a really good idea to do so (Hoth). Perhaps vessels were upgraded later?

Where did you see a multi starfighter engagement against an ISD at Hoth?