ST v SW forum, or how many ways can SW trash ST?

[Master of Ossus]

I told you! I never IGNORED the website! Why do you think i'm arguing against the numbers!

You aren't arguing, you're just saying that the numbers are wrong with stupid arguments (ie. VAGUE references to events that no one else remembers, rejection of numbers-based comparison in general, etc.)

You people all IGNORED Darkstar's website which gave some valuable points even if it was byesed.

Bullshit. I wrote a HUGE FUCKING REBUTTAL of DarkStar's website. I pointed out what was wrong with it, and why his conclusions were flawed. You ignored my rebuttal.

And another thing, if the books are supposedly canon and they remain constant with the films, then what do you have to worry about leaving them out of the debate?

Bullshitters like Anderson like to remove as much evidence as possible from the debates. That way, they can nitpick minutiae about incidents (ie. Were the asteroids in the Hoth belt really made of iron? They COULD have been made of granite, and you can't prove their composition). It makes things much easier if you have a wider selection of evidence to show, so that general trends appear more easily than if you are looking at a few scattered data points.

If Star Wars is truely more powerful than Star Trek then whats wrong with just using onscreen evidence? Answer this question and don't ignore it.

There's nothing wrong with it perse, it just doesn't match at all with Lucasfilm canon policy. Almost all debaters accept that Lucasfilm (and, indirectly, George Lucas) have the final say on what is and is not in the saga of Star Wars. There are some people who do only use onscreen evidence, but it makes things more difficult and needlessly complicates the debate as nitpick and red-herring after nitpick and red-herring are used to dismiss almost every incident in Star Wars.

[seanrobertson]

Asteroids have been vapourised in Star Trek too! Don't say they haven't! If thats true then the numbers apply to Star Trek too!

I have never seen an asteroid vaporized in ST. Cite the episode name.

Moreover, "the numbers" do not necessarily "apply to Star Trek too!" In order for them to do so, the asteroids would need to be of similar size and composition as those vaporized in Star Wars, that have been measured and quantified. Moreover, only lower-limits can be generated for things that have already been done. Even if such a thing were true, it would not affect the upper limit for either side in the least. For the Empire, that's well over 200GT per shot. For the UFP, right now the upper limit is around 100MT, with a lower range at less than a kiloton.

Upper-limit of 100 megatons?

Wow. Someone's being generous out there Heh...

And Jodo: I don't want to give Tras/whatever a breather. He said he could take flaming, so surely he can "take" being asked a few innocent questions.

But FWIW, I AM taking it very easy on him. He's clearly very young, and while I think a spanking is in order, I see no reason in beating him so badly that he'll run away for good.

[seanrobertson]

Asteroids have been vapourised in Star Trek too! Don't say they haven't! If thats true then the numbers apply to Star Trek too!

Would now be a bad time to point out that in the EPisode Pegasus it was stated that it would take the entire torpedoe loadout of the Enterprise to destroy a 5km asteroid, not vaporize, just destroy.

In fairness--to Trek, not to the irritating newbie--Riker didn't say that it'd require the entire torpedo loadout. He said "most of our photon torpedoes," which was previously established as 250 in "Conundrum." (Why they decreased the complement from the latter episode's script, which established 275 photorps, I dunno. Maybe one of the writers actually read the TM and realized that some of the casings were loaded with probe gear and similar shit.)

But here's where things get cute: it makes NO difference

Be it 200 torpedoes, 180, 150, 225, 249--the general range is STILL roughly the same.

And when Crud gets his head out of his ass and realizes that, in the Real World (tm), we must discuss things in objective, quantifiable terms (read: he ditches this retarded "no numbers" stance), he'll find that, BASED ON ONSCREEN EVIDENCE, photorps compare at best to an ISD's light turbolaser battery; at worst, Wars starfighters could equal their output with blasters.

Fuck am I tired. Being sick sucks.

[Master of Ossus]

Upper-limit of 100 megatons?

That was DarkStar's estimate for photon torpedo firepower. The calculations used have been debunked by numerous people in several different ways.

[Ignorant_Boy]

Numbers don't matter when comparing? You want to use what you see only?

Well, by your logic, an archer can shoot an arrow just as far as a artillery piece can shoot a shell. Do I know the range? Can I calculate how far the projectile will go based on mass, initial velocity, and angle of elevation? Why bother? Why the fuck would I need numbers when they both look like they fly the same distance to me?

[Lord of the Farce]

But they didn't calculate it. What would you say if some scienctist worked out the energy requirements from everything done in Star Wars were much smaller than the figures that have already been given?

Let's have a look:
Michael Wong, the person behind SD.Net (Link): Bachelor of Applied Science, University of Waterloo, Canada.

Curtis Saxton, the person behind the AOTC ICS and the SW Technical Commentaries (Link - 2): PhD Theoretical Astrophysics, University of Sydney, Australia.

Robert Scott Anderson, the person behind G2k's ST-vs-ST (Link): No known university education, worked as Customer Service Rep. at the University of Southern Mississippi.


Starting to get the picture yet?

[Darth Servo]

What the hell happened to this thread?

[Tribun]

Because of a cyerattack, most of it was sadly lost. Sadly, because it was a masterpiece of showing, how stupid Trek-Trolls are.

[Darth Servo]

Really? Damn, I lost at least a dozen posts from my count.

[Tribun]

And I really hope that Chas_2003 will come back and repeat his idiotic quotes, so that I can take them apart pice for pice again....

[Slartibartfast]

To be honest, do numbers really mean anything? Do you know how much energy it would take to destroy a planet? Do you know how much energy it would take to vapourise an asteroid? There just numbers, showing relative firepower and other things within the Star Wars universe. Can you really compare them between Star Trek and Star Wars?

Numbers are good, kid. They are what separate rational people from angry, feces-throwing baboons. Learn to appreciate them. At least try to understand them. Don't tell me... you're reallly good at History and Literature but suck in Math class, right?

[Slartibartfast]

BTW: 2 will always be more than 1.
And no, we're not biased in favor of 2.

[Slartibartfast]

Asteroids have been vapourised in Star Trek too! Don't say they haven't! If thats true then the numbers apply to Star Trek too!

You say this as if there was an infinite amount of Star Trek episodes and movies, and nobody could possibly have watched them all, so SOME episode MUST have an asteroid vaporized. How MANY episodes of TOS, TNG, DS9 and/or (ick) Voyager or Enterprise do you think exist? Wait, I forgot, numbers don't matter

[Slartibartfast]

"Some scientist"...tee-hee. That always kills me. Incidentally, what do you think Michael IS?

How about Dr. Saxton?

Yep, they're scientists.

Little nitpick, but isn't Mike an engineer and not a scientist?

Don't Engineers study sciences too? Or what do you think a scientist is, somebody who gets a degree from the University of Silmaria in Science Island(TM)?

[Master of Ossus]

"Some scientist"...tee-hee. That always kills me. Incidentally, what do you think Michael IS?

How about Dr. Saxton?

Yep, they're scientists.

Little nitpick, but isn't Mike an engineer and not a scientist?

Don't Engineers study sciences too? Or what do you think a scientist is, somebody who gets a degree from the University of Silmaria in Science Island(TM)?

An Engineer is just someone who APPLIES science to the design and ultimate creation of practical tools for the betterment of humanity. Hence, an engineer MUST understand science in order to do their job.

[Darth Wong]

For those unfamiliar with the basic job definitions:

Scientist: studies the laws of nature

Engineer: applies scientific principles to design things

Technician: uses designs from engineer to build and maintain things

Operator: uses things built by technicians

Manager: sits on ass and takes credit for all of the above

[Anarchist Bunny]

Shit, I lost Chas's quote about him not being bothered reading the website, but that it was bullshit.

[2000AD]

Shit, I lost Chas's quote about him not being bothered reading the website, but that it was bullshit.

I managed to get this gem saved in my sig libary before the crack:

Its basically properganda. That may not be the most apropeite word but as you can see (or can't) it specifically targets each of DarkStars comments and comes up with reasons why it would not be true.
Chas_2003's reason for not reading Ossus' site after asking for evidence that Darkstar's site had been refuted

[Dalton]

Shit, I lost Chas's quote about him not being bothered reading the website, but that it was bullshit.

I managed to get this gem saved in my sig libary before the crack:

Its basically properganda. That may not be the most apropeite word but as you can see (or can't) it specifically targets each of DarkStars comments and comes up with reasons why it would not be true.
Chas_2003's reason for not reading Ossus' site after asking for evidence that Darkstar's site had been refuted

That's the dumbest thing I've read today. He asks for evidence, he's provided with it, and he throws it out because IT WAS THE EXACT THING HE WAS LOOKING FOR!

[RogueIce]

Manager: sits on ass and takes credit for all of the above

And yet who gets paid more?

[2000AD]

snip

That's the dumbest thing I've read today. He asks for evidence, he's provided with it, and he throws it out because IT WAS THE EXACT THING HE WAS LOOKING FOR!

At the time i think quite a few people were going
Unfortunately the cracking caused the deletion of the post that came from, therefor that's the only evidence i have it existed.

[Anarchist Bunny]

Shit, I lost Chas's quote about him not being bothered reading the website, but that it was bullshit.

I managed to get this gem saved in my sig libary before the crack:

Its basically properganda. That may not be the most apropeite word but as you can see (or can't) it specifically targets each of DarkStars comments and comes up with reasons why it would not be true.
Chas_2003's reason for not reading Ossus' site after asking for evidence that Darkstar's site had been refuted

That's the dumbest thing I've read today. He asks for evidence, he's provided with it, and he throws it out because IT WAS THE EXACT THING HE WAS LOOKING FOR!

I still think the "I can't be bothered to read the site, but it's bullshit" quote of his(paraphrased above) was worse, I wish I still had it.

[Master of Ossus]

Its [my rebuttal of Mr. Anderson's work] basically properganda. That may not be the most apropeite word but as you can see (or can't) it specifically targets each of DarkStars comments and comes up with reasons why it would not be true.

WTF? Of course that's what my rebuttal did. That's what it was SUPPOSED to do. That in no way invalidates its accuracy. It shows that Anderson's site was wrong on a multitude of areas, and I think it showed that Anderson was not a reliable source of information. How does that make it "properganda?" How does that invalidate my work as a refutation of Anderson's website?

[Lord of the Farce]

WTF? Of course that's what my rebuttal did. That's what it was SUPPOSED to do. That in no way invalidates its accuracy. It shows that Anderson's site was wrong on a multitude of areas, and I think it showed that Anderson was not a reliable source of information. How does that make it "properganda?" How does that invalidate my work as a refutation of Anderson's website?

Forget about it. Somebody who thinks that people are brainwashed for being more inclined to trust the word of someone with a University degree in Applied Science (rather than a customer service rep who does not), is not going to bother to pay attention to anything that remotely conflict with his belief... Especially not annoying things such as facts, evidence and common sense.

[JodoForce]

Looks like he's gone