8472 Planet Killer vs Death Star

[Admiral Johnason]

Sovereign, do you really think the debris simply flew AROUND the DS w/o hitting it?

Servo has a point.

And what aer you doing back here, Soverign?

[Anarchist Bunny]

So he ran from the Jemies vs Clonies thread, surprised he's back so quick.

[TurboPhaser]

This is a tough one, while the 8472 version has to fire its beam for longer and the DS doesnt, the 8472's can make more of these Planet Killers, because the components are less complex.

Lets see:

8472:

8 or so standard ships
1 Focusing ship

10 + second blast, and planet is destroyed

Imperials:

Massive 120 km or so sphere, enourmous resources are necessary, though for the Empire, this aint much of a problem. Takes a while to build I would imagine.

A couple of seconds of blast and planet is destroyed.

My conclusion is: 8472.

The DS has superior destructive capabilities but only by a few seconds. The 8472 one is less robust, but they can make a lot more planet killers that the Empire could make Death Stars. Mere speculation, but 8472's do grow their ships. This is generally more effiecient than construction.

In a 1 on 1 fight, the 8472 would lose if they both fired at the same time. This is excluding fighters etc. However, the 8472's could come back with 5 + focusing ships and added support ships and then attack the DS.

[Darth Servo]

This is a tough one, while the 8472 version has to fire its beam for longer and the DS doesnt, the 8472's can make more of these Planet Killers, because the components are less complex.

Nice assumption. Just because the 8472 ships are smaller than the DS that does not mean 8472 can make more of them. You don't know how much resources 8472 has.

Lets see:

8472:

8 or so standard ships
1 Focusing ship

10 + second blast, and planet is destroyed

16 seconds actually. And it uses a chain reaction to blow up t he planet which probably doesn't work on planetary shields.

Imperials:

Massive 120 km or so sphere, enourmous resources are necessary, though for the Empire, this aint much of a problem. Takes a while to build I would imagine.

6 months to build 2/3 of the 900 km DS 2 according to Shadows of the Empire.

A couple of seconds of blast and planet is destroyed.

With brute force weapons that can punch through planetary shields.

My conclusion is: 8472.

The DS has superior destructive capabilities but only by a few seconds. The 8472 one is less robust, but they can make a lot more planet killers that the Empire could make Death Stars. Mere speculation, but 8472's do grow their ships. This is generally more effiecient than construction.

Bullshit. It takes 20 years to grow a fully mature human adult while skyscrapers take only a few months to a couple years.

In a 1 on 1 fight, the 8472 would lose if they both fired at the same time. This is excluding fighters etc. However, the 8472's could come back with 5 + focusing ships and added support ships and then attack the DS.

You forget about all the surface turbolaser turrets that would blow the bioships to hell easily.

*pokes da noob*

[Crown]

The DS has superior destructive capabilities but only by a few seconds. The 8472 one is less robust, but they can make a lot more planet killers that the Empire could make Death Stars. Mere speculation, but 8472's do grow their ships. This is generally more effiecient than construction.

Hmm that is really debatable. While I do believe that Species 834223012 can grow one of their ships faster than the Empire could build a DS, I wouldn't label that as more efficient. After all for either you or me to be 'grown' to manhood it takes what 16, 18, years right? But to 'construct' a tank? Well you get my point.

The only reason I am leaning towards they might grow faster than it takes to build a DS (speculation), is just because the sheer disparity in mass.

In a 1 on 1 fight, the 8472 would lose if they both fired at the same time. This is excluding fighters etc. However, the 8472's could come back with 5 + focusing ships and added support ships and then attack the DS.

True, that and have we ever seen how their weapons stand up to shields? I mean their planet killing one, since wasn't it pretty much confirmed that it wasn't brute force, or raw fire-power, but rather some kind of exotic chain reaction.

What I mean to say is that even if the DS sits there and does nothing, there is a very low chance that the beam would even affect the shields. Well that was my turn to speculate!

Oh, and welcome to SD.net and stay away from the pokers!

[Ghost Rider]

Yeah subjective nonsense given that the DS was made to blow up shielded worlds.

So obviously 8472's beam is better because it was killing planets in comparison.

And a one on one...given on of the MTL/HTL on the DS could destroy an 8472 craft...it would require literally trillions of their craft to kill the DS

And yes...since they grow their ships that must mean efficency...disregarding that when they lost a handful of ships they fled like a scared rabbit.

[Crown]

Too Late!

Oh and don't worry about us if we throw insults around, we're pretty relaxed bunch (but there are limits), when in doubt check out the announcments forum!

[Ghost Rider]

[quote="Crown"]Too Late! [quote]

Curse you...I shall shake my fist in....um...muted...ANGER...yeah

[Ghost Rider]

Oh wait you were talking about servo

Eh watch out for Verilon if ya meet him...he bites.

And welcome

[Crown]

Guys I think that TurboPhaser is approaching this thread in what would you rather have in the ST universe? I.e. a DS that would take the Feddies a millenia to create, or Species 8482938401384 which they might have a chance in hell making in one life time and wouldn't break the bank, thus allowing them to have more than one.

Know what I mean?

[Ghost Rider]

Probably...given he brought up the growth argument.

I mean as easy planet killer in Trek tech...it works pretty well(as long as you have something brave piloting the ship and some ship's doctor/computer doesn't come up with a nano death)

But yeah I can see it, given the circumstances he put forth.

[TurboPhaser]

16 seconds actually. And it uses a chain reaction to blow up t he planet which probably doesn't work on planetary shields.

Thats why i put the 'plus' sign, I wasnt sure of the exact time.

True, that and have we ever seen how their weapons stand up to shields? I mean their planet killing one, since wasn't it pretty much confirmed that it wasn't brute force, or raw fire-power, but rather some kind of exotic chain reaction.

Yeah, tis a shame we never saw their performance against shields. Though the planet killing ray probably would have blown apart any ship in the ST universe, so thats not really a good test.

A standard Bioship knocked out Voyagers shields in one shot IIRC.

Oh, and welcome to SD.net and stay away from the pokers!

Thanks, I'll keep that in mind.

Oh and don't worry about us if we throw insults around, we're pretty relaxed bunch (but there are limits), when in doubt check out the announcments forum!

Uh yeah, I'll get used to it.

Guys I think that TurboPhaser is approaching this thread in what would you rather have in the ST universe? I.e. a DS that would take the Feddies a millenia to create, or Species 8482938401384 which they might have a chance in hell making in one life time and wouldn't break the bank, thus allowing them to have more than one.

Know what I mean?

Bang on target. (so to speak)

[Crown]

About your sig pic; Scorpion (or whatever the ep where Voy meets Species 8349234 is called).

Since I can sort of make out what looks like a Feddie hull...

EDIT:: Cookie?

[TurboPhaser]

About your sig pic; Scorpion (or whatever the ep where Voy meets Species 8349234 is called).

Since I can sort of make out what looks like a Feddie hull...

EDIT:: Cookie?

Nope.

Cookie: Internet cookie or real cookie, whatever you prefer. Or a joke? I think its a minor joke, eg: play on words.

[Tribun]

So, lets pull the facts on the table once and for all:

Fire Power and mechanism:
Death Star:
-Confirmed lower limit for the main gun are 1E22 megatons.
-Brute force weapon which uses direct power transfer and can destroy all kinds of shields, regardless of thier strengh.

8472 Bioships:
-Confirmed lower limit for planet destroying 5E16 megatons.
-Weapon usees some sort of chain reaction to destroy planets, effect on planetshields unknown.


Defensive mechanisms:
Death Star:
-Tenthousends to hunderetthousends of light to ultra-heavy turbo-lasers and ion-cannons.
-Thousands of TIEs of various design.
-More than onehunderetthousand stormtroopers against boarding.

8472 Bioships:
-Defense qualities are poor. Only way of self defense is to break formation at attack with thier main weapons.


Protection systems:
Death Star:
-Shield which can only be passed by really small, slow flying objects at certain shield seams.
-Strong surface armor.
-Blast doors against decompression.

8472 Bioships:
-Bio-armor with unknown capilities. But it can't be strong, because one ship is destroyed by a collision with a cube.


Special abilities:
Death Star:
-Useable as command post.
-Useable as troop carrier.

8472 bioships:
none


That should have made things clear.....

[Crazedwraith]

About your sig pic; Scorpion (or whatever the ep where Voy meets Species 8349234 is called).

Since I can sort of make out what looks like a Feddie hull...

EDIT:: Cookie?

Nope.

Cookie: Internet cookie or real cookie, whatever you prefer. Or a joke? I think its a minor joke, eg: play on words.

its a galaxy clas ship firing on sumthing and it came from the DITL?

[Sovereign]

16 seconds actually. And it uses a chain reaction to blow up t he planet which probably doesn't work on planetary shields.

One thing I noticed, is the fact that everyone assumes that it will not work on Planet Shields. This makes it where Star Wars will always win. But it has not been confirmed, so it is not a victory or a conclusion.

Two seconds after the Beam struck the Borg world, eruption accord around the planet. So there had to be a physical impact into the world. And it is clearly strong enough to break into the core in seconds. The planet begins to burn even more, turn to lava, and after the beam stopped it explodes. The attack probably burned the planet inside out and then erupted. Like filling a balloon with too much air.

Bullshit. It takes 20 years to grow a fully mature human adult while skyscrapers take only a few months to a couple years.

There is a possibility of cloning. 8472 was capable of altering they way they look and such, maybe they capture creatures a genetically altered them. Kinda like the Zurg on Starcraft.

[/quote]

[Anarchist Bunny]

One thing I noticed, is the fact that everyone assumes that it will not work on Planet Shields. This makes it where Star Wars will always win. But it has not been confirmed, so it is not a victory or a conclusion.

Two seconds after the Beam struck the Borg world, eruption accord around the planet. So there had to be a physical impact into the world. And it is clearly strong enough to break into the core in seconds. The planet begins to burn even more, turn to lava, and after the beam stopped it explodes. The attack probably burned the planet inside out and then erupted. Like filling a balloon with too much air.

Planetary shields can take an assult from ships that heavy weapons can do that kind of damage alone, not combined with 8 other ships, for such a time that a several month long campaign is the only other alternative(unless you have ships with advanced cloaking AND a jedi/sith master to co-ordinate your men's firing), so yeah, and we've seen that 8472's ships don't go through shields, so it's safe to assume that 8472's planet killing beam won't do shit to planetary shields.

There is a possibility of cloning. 8472 was capable of altering they way they look and such, maybe they capture creatures a genetically altered them. Kinda like the Zurg on Starcraft.

Or they could be very difficult and take a long time to grow(would kind of explain how they reacted to minor losses), we have no idea, but if they were a quick couple of days why would a few loses be cause for retreat.

[Darth Servo]

One thing I noticed, is the fact that everyone assumes that it will not work on Planet Shields. This makes it where Star Wars will always win. But it has not been confirmed, so it is not a victory or a conclusion.

Chain reactions require matter to produce their destructive effects. Energy shields don't have matter, therefore the chain reaction doesn't work.

Two seconds after the Beam struck the Borg world, eruption accord around the planet. So there had to be a physical impact into the world.

A) Planet was unsheilded, so of COURSE there was an impact on the planet. Don't you realize that the whole purpose of the shield is to PREVENT such things?

B) Does this look like "around the planet" to you?
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Dat ... rpion2.jpg
The eruption is big sure enough, but not planet engulfing.

Or perhaps you refer to those glowing spots. They're hardly anything to write home about. For all we know they could be any kind of surface explosions.

And it is clearly strong enough to break into the core in seconds.

Nice leap in logic. The crust of the planet is clearly still intact in that pic. No reason at all to assume the beam cut all the way through to the core.

The planet begins to burn even more, turn to lava, and after the beam stopped it explodes. The attack probably burned the planet inside out and then erupted. Like filling a balloon with too much air.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Dat ... rpion3.jpg
You can see that while PART of the crust has been melted, MOST of it is still in tact.
Burned the inside of a planet? Tell me, how do you burn the iron core of a planet? The fact remains that the delay BETWEEN the 8472 ships ceasing firing and the actual explosion PROVES that it worked on some kind of chain reaction and NOT on Direct energy transfer.

Bullshit. It takes 20 years to grow a fully mature human adult while skyscrapers take only a few months to a couple years.

There is a possibility of cloning.

Cloning is NOT instantaneuos. You've clearly been watching too many movies and not paying attention to real life. REAL LIFE cloning is essentially like having an identical twin. The clone STILL needs to go through all the developmental processes a normal human would.

8472 was capable of altering they way they look and such, maybe they capture creatures a genetically altered them. Kinda like the Zurg on Starcraft.

MAYBE? We're supposed to be dealing with CANON FACTS remember? What you think they MIGHT be able to do means squat. Altering their own appearance does NOT equal the ability to grow bioships in a short period of time.

[Ender]

It was damaged by the biogenic weapon, and could not retreat back home to fluidic space. The attackes by the Hirogen slowed its regeneration and it was chased for 50 lightyears. Then is was captured on a rock and regenerated on their ship. Then it escaped killed one Hirogen and tried to use Voyager to return home. It failed was caught again, but they never said anything about it after that, so their is no way of knowing what happened to the S8472. There is an 8472 Vessel floating and regenerating in space somewhere (unless the Hirogen picked it up).

All of which does nothing to answer my question of why didn't it just kick all tehir asses if their weapons are so powerful? Even if the beam was down to 1% power if it were as strong as you want it to be it could kill them no problem.

Further, you ast as though Regeneration is infinite here, which is a clear no limits fallacy.

I thought I remember somthing about power fluxuations in their matrix or somthing, while the Borg tried to regenerate themselves. Other than that I dont know, it was just in the info. I will have to check that out somtime.

You have had plenty of time to do so: Put up or shut up.

1. True that it is unknown if regeneration is infinate. But the Enterprise Borg episode, demenstrated that even after 100 years, two drones could regenerate and continue assimilation. Other than that, I just dont know. With Species 8472, there is no true way of knowing neither. No one knows the life span of a single member.

Clarification on 8472 abilities asked for; Sovereign responds with Borg abilities and an admission that it was an appeal to ignorance.

2. True, but the battle still raged in FC, while the battle had ended in Scorpion. But still it may be true, they were fighting an intruder.

Do youreally think that just because damage is no longer being actively inflicted that the effecs of damage done just magically dissapear?

Perhaps then the Nanoprobes in the Borg can last a very long time, but in the end, not forever. Same goes for S8472. They last a while, but not forever.

THE BORG HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS. Drop the appeal to ignorance and redherring.

Possibly. But then again the fleet could have been targeting the Cubes Power Matrix, and causing the fluxuations, the same way S8472 was tearing up the Cubes Power Grid.

You really think that damage magically disappears after the ship stops getting shot, don't you? It takes alot of time and alot of work to repair heavy damage, so it would have still been damaged when Voy arrived. So prove that the 8 did it and it was not still casualties from earlier.

100 years seen in Canon fact. Any time longer than that, is unknown as of now.

The borg are a RED HERRING

The information is canon, I just can't recall 100% of the things that happened.

Back up your claims

Federation ships would not fire at just anything, except with Pulse Phaser for close range combat.

It's what they usually do, just shoot at what is available.

But if you are going to use Torpedoes and More Torpeodes, than you will search for some kind of Vital system.

You mean like they usually do? Oh wait, they just shoot blindly...

Data was concerned when Picard told him to target a "Non Vital System". If they were just shooting at the Big Cube, then why would they care for a Specific "Non Vital System"?

Because when you get down to the line and have next to nothing, you have to change tactics and star doing specific targeting or die.

Name is no matter. Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, was just refered to as DS9, which is they name of the station. And Star Trek: Voyager Was refered to as just Voyager. So they made is easy and named it Enterprise instead of Star Trek: Enterprise.

Christ the is irrelevent to the topic no matter how you slice it. Servo, how did you let him get away with dragging out the red herring this long?

Vital system are deep inside the cube to be protected. The only reason Picard knew of a specific weakness is because he could still here the Collective. True about Fed sensors though. Picard and Seven are the only two in all of Starfleet that know what they are talking about.

Exactly what the fuck does this have to do with 8472 or the Death Star? Oh that's right, nothing.

The Title is irrelevant anyway as long as it says "Based on Star Trek", and then features Starfleet, Klingons, Romulans, Borg, etc.

Still a red herring

So they destroyed it. So many cubes have been destroyed in Star Trek. Besides, who knows how long this battle lasted, or how long it took and how many ships it fought on its way towards Sol.

Appeal to ignorance

The focus is now on this thread, not those. I have saved those threads and show them on my sig. I will one day return to those, or just restate them in new one, but until then I would like to Focus on this one. I would appreciate it if everyone else would do the same.

I'm sorry, I had to raise my keyboard above that bullshit there.

Smart Ass

Don't run like a fucking pussey and you don't take shit for it.

I abandoned them because the subject was changed once too many, so I created more, and the same thing happened. It is happening here too. So call it what you wish, but it is a thing of the past.

So you directly contradict your earluier statment that you will return then. Still a pussey and a liar I see.

I Am So Fucking Scared! The Name Calling Is So Scary! Lets Try To Debate For Real. Jesus People, Are We Trek/Wars Debaters or Crybaby Name Callers?

You call on use to deabte for real when your posts are a mess of logical fallacies. Right....

Well, to bring this up from before, you said the ANH book states that the DS was hit by the planets debris after destruction. Give me a page number and they part of the book that states that, plus the author. I would really like to know, I might just take defeat if you can give me that info...

Source: ANH novelization p.117

A voice announced over a hidden speaker that they had approached within antigrav range of Alderaan- approximately six planetary diameters. That was enough to accomplish what all of Vader's infernal devices had failed to.

Coupled with the demonstrated escape velocity of the debris means that the thing would have gotten hammered.

Now then, we provided proof, are you ever going to do teh same about 8472's regenerative ability?

I know that, but I wanted to make sure he read the same one, because I dont recall, infact I reread the part of the book and it did not say anything of the debris hitting it. Infact, it never had the planets destruction at all. The chapter ends with...

He gestured to the two soldiers flanking her. "Escort her to the principal observation level and," he smiled, "make certain she is provided with an unobstructed view"

Then the next time they show the DS, it opens with Vadar walking in and he says...

"The defense system on Alderaan, despite the Senator's protestations to the contrary, were as strong as any in the Empire. I should conclude that our demonstration was as impressive as it was thorough."

The test was clearly over, it said nothing of debris slamming the ship.

It's simple fucking math and reality, if it's that close and since there is nothing in space but the DS to slow down or stop it, the DS will get creamed. It did, and it survived. In fact. it survived very well, as the shields for a 160 KM DS could be calculated via

S = (I - U) / U * 1.77E26, which once you plug in the values of the DS beam and Alderaan's GPE works out to a particle shields of 2.5E32 joules.

Now will you ever back your claims?

One thing I noticed, is the fact that everyone assumes that it will not work on Planet Shields. This makes it where Star Wars will always win. But it has not been confirmed, so it is not a victory or a conclusion.

As I have said several times in this thread:

A chain reaction requires interaction between atoms.
A shield blocks interactions between what is protected and outside forces.
Ergo, a shield will stop interactions between the atoms of the * beam and the planet
Ergo, it will be halted.

If you want to say that the 8472 beam will pass through unabated, prove it, otherwise it is an appeal to ignorance. So prove it.

Two seconds after the Beam struck the Borg world, eruption accord around the planet. So there had to be a physical impact into the world. And it is clearly strong enough to break into the core in seconds. The planet begins to burn even more, turn to lava, and after the beam stopped it explodes. The attack probably burned the planet inside out and then erupted. Like filling a balloon with too much air.

Sorry, for the delay, I had to take some asprin and lie down for a rest after I read the sheer stupidity and scientific ignorance in the above statement.

1) We see glow spots, not eruptions, there was no visable ejecta. That was only present in the impact point.
2) Yes there was contact, something a shield would prevent
3) You think the phystical impact was enough to break apart the planet....ughs orry, needed some more asprin there. We are dealing with a particle beam here... and you think the imparted KE and momentum was sufficient to break apart the planet? How massive do you think those particles making up the mean were? Especially since the beam was visably less then C. Hell, even if we assume that it was moving ast C and the particles were each a kilogram in mass instead of a few amu the imparted KE would beabout 10 MT. Momentum would be under a ton. You think that is enough to break apart a planet? If that were the case Earth would cease to be as cold war nukes were more then that.

Seriously, I had an extremely low opinion of your intellegence before, now I have to wonder if you have ever attended any type of schooling at all.

You try to play off what is stated in the script to be and follows all indications of being a chain reaction as a kinetic impact in an attempt to argue that that wouldget by SW shields. This is Little Bobby's "I don't like how things are, so I'll make up the facts as I go along" style shit. It doesn't woirk for him, it sure as hell doesn't work for you.

There is a possibility of cloning. 8472 was capable of altering they way they look and such, maybe they capture creatures a genetically altered them. Kinda like the Zurg on Starcraft.

Like all your other claims: Prove it.

[Ender]

Oh, and I still want you to address a single one of the points I have made throughout this entire farce of a debate. I've dealt with every last bit of BS you've slung out, Now you need to deal with my showing your errors.

[Master of Ossus]

One thing I noticed, is the fact that everyone assumes that it will not work on Planet Shields. This makes it where Star Wars will always win. But it has not been confirmed, so it is not a victory or a conclusion.

Show any evidence that a chain reaction that appears to rely heavily on the Borg facilities unique to Borg space would be able to destroy a planet that was shielded, anyway. The fact of the matter is, the destruction of the planet took place well AFTER the ships fired on the planet, and the beam actually struck. This is indicative of some sort of matter reaction on the planet below. Even if we assume that the reaction is NOT dependent on the particular installations the Borg had obviously built into the planet, we should conclude that a planetary shield would stop the attack, since planetary shields can easily defeat BDZ-level firepower.

Two seconds after the Beam struck the Borg world, eruption accord around the planet. So there had to be a physical impact into the world. And it is clearly strong enough to break into the core in seconds. The planet begins to burn even more, turn to lava, and after the beam stopped it explodes. The attack probably burned the planet inside out and then erupted. Like filling a balloon with too much air.

So, why did the beam have to stop before the planet exploded? A DET weapon would have continued exploding while the beam was in contact with the planet (like it did with the DS). It wouldn't have stopped and then suddenly started again. Energy cannot disappear, then reappear.

[Sidious]

A cookie if you can guess where above image crop came from!

I believe thats the USS Odyssey battling 3 Jemhadar attack fighters in the DS9 episode "The JemHadar"

Am I right?

[Vertigo1]

A cookie if you can guess where above image crop came from!

That would be the part where a galaxy-class starship fires on a cardassian galor-class ship in "Sacrifice of Angels".

[TurboPhaser]

A cookie if you can guess where above image crop came from!

I believe thats the USS Odyssey battling 3 Jemhadar attack fighters in the DS9 episode "The JemHadar"

Am I right?

Nope. But it does look like that doesnt it?

That would be the part where a galaxy-class starship fires on a cardassian galor-class ship in "Sacrifice of Angels".

Yep. I'll have to make a more difficult one........