Richard the Lionheart vs The Mongol Hordes

[HemlockGrey]

Richard the Lionheart takes on the Mongol Hordes with the force he used to invade the Holy Land.

Now, he's doomed through sheer weight of numbers, but how much damage can he inflict?

I'd say quite a lot, giving his winning strategy against Saladin's horse archers.

[Pablo Sanchez]

What's the terrain? Who is attacking?

[StarshipTitanic]

Insignificant, unless the Mongols are in a canyon or against a river. The Mongols literally lived their lives in the saddle and had the powerful composite bow, which is more powerful than anything the Arabs could field. What was Richard's strategy, anyway? Surround them? Mongols won't let that happen, they won battles with such trickery.

Shouldn't this be OT?

[Pablo Sanchez]

Insignificant, unless the Mongols are in a canyon or against a river. The Mongols literally lived their lives in the saddle and had the powerful composite bow, which is more powerful than anything the Arabs could field. What was Richard's strategy, anyway? Surround them? Mongols won't let that happen, they won battles with such trickery.

If the Mongols start with their backs to a river, then Richard's heavy cavalry can hurt them. Not win... just hurt them.

Shouldn't this be OT?

Yeah.

[HemlockGrey]

This was Richard's strategy against Saladin:

In Palestine, when forced to defend against horse archers, he placed his pikemen in the front lines with the pike butt in the sand and the point level with a horse's chest. In the intervals he placed a crossbowman, standing, with another crossbowman behid who loaded a crossbow passed back by the man in front, passing him an already loaded one in exchange. Essentially, the hail of crossbow bolts kept the horse archers at bay and they couldn't charge because of the pikes.

When he marched, he kept his army in order, and Saladin's horse archers failed to penetrate the 'thick cassock of felt' each foot soldier. The crossbowmen kept up their stream of fire, inflicting serious casualities against the horse archers. When Saladin attacked Richard openly, Richard waited until Saladin's forces had been commited and then charged with his knights, breaking the horse archers and the Muslim infantry.

I have no idea how well this strategy will work against the Mongols, however, but keep in mind that European heavy cavalry was probably the best the world had ever seen.

[HemlockGrey]

If the Mongols start with their backs to a river, then Richard's heavy cavalry can hurt them. Not win... just hurt them

Or he can simply set up camp and force them to make a frontal attack on a superior posistion, as Prince Edward did at Evesham.

[StarshipTitanic]

It wouldn't.

http://www.coldsiberia.org/monmight.htm

One of the bows was light and could be fired rapidly from horseback, the other one was heavier and designed for long-range use from a ground position. This heavy bow had an average draw weight of 166 pounds, according to George Vernadsky much more than the strongest contemporary European bow, the English longbow. It was not until the invention of breach-load rifles in the 1860s that the world saw a small weapon which had more power than the bow of the Chingis-Khanite Mongols.

Yeah, Richie's felt isn't stopping that.

[Pablo Sanchez]

Or he can simply set up camp and force them to make a frontal attack on a superior posistion, as Prince Edward did at Evesham.

The standard Mongol tactic in the face of such a concept was to thumb their nose at the positions and go around.

[StarshipTitanic]

If the Mongols start with their backs to a river, then Richard's heavy cavalry can hurt them. Not win... just hurt them

Or he can simply set up camp and force them to make a frontal attack on a superior posistion, as Prince Edward did at Evesham.

Unless they're on the steppes. Where are they fighting?

[StarshipTitanic]

Or he can simply set up camp and force them to make a frontal attack on a superior posistion, as Prince Edward did at Evesham.

The standard Mongol tactic in the face of such a concept was to thumb their nose at the positions and go around.

The Mongols also employed Chinese engineers and had access to excellent seige weaponry to break such a camp.

[HemlockGrey]

Yeah, Richie's felt isn't stopping that.

Probably not. However, the hail of crossbow bolts would still do nasty things to Mongol horsemen and a line of pikes can't be a Good Thing.

The standard Mongol tactic in the face of such a concept was to thumb their nose at the positions and go around.

If they're backed up against a river, they can't.

Unless they're on the steppes. Where are they fighting?

I would assume the steppes, in which case Richard would probably use his formation for his battle with Saladin if he brings them to battle.

[Pablo Sanchez]

Probably not. However, the hail of crossbow bolts would still do nasty things to Mongol horsemen and a line of pikes can't be a Good Thing.

Crossbows don't have a sufficient rate of fire to do enough. While Richard's crossbowman are getting off maybe 2 shots a minute each, they and their pikemen guards are standing still under a rippling hail of accurate and deadly arrow fire.

If they're backed up against a river, they can't.

Which is why I asked what the terrain was.

[HemlockGrey]

Crossbows don't have a sufficient rate of fire to do enough. While Richard's crossbowman are getting off maybe 2 shots a minute each, they and their pikemen guards are standing still under a rippling hail of accurate and deadly arrow fire.

The crossbows were, due to Richard's imaginative strategy, firing continously. This cannot be good for the Mongol army, and Richard can lead his knights out in a charge whenever they get too close, provided that numbers are roughly even.

[Sea Skimmer]

The crossbows were, due to Richard's imaginative strategy, firing continously. This cannot be good for the Mongol army, and Richard can lead his knights out in a charge whenever they get too close, provided that numbers are roughly even.

They wont be. The Mongols could easily field a five to one, and more likely ten to one advantage in numbers. European armies of the period where mere vanguards for the Mongol forces.

[HemlockGrey]

They wont be. The Mongols could easily field a five to one, and more likely ten to one advantage in numbers. European armies of the period where mere vanguards for the Mongol forces.

This is quite true; if Richard were to actually invade the Mongol Empire he would be annhilated through sheer weight of numbers.

[Sea Skimmer]

This is quite true; if Richard were to actually invade the Mongol Empire he would be annhilated through sheer weight of numbers.

It would be the same for a defensive campaign, at least in terms of trained troops. Close to Europe lots of untrained shovel armed civilian fodder could be called on. Meanwhile the Mongols can move their huge army anywhere from the plains of Hungary to northern China.

[Pablo Sanchez]

The crossbows were, due to Richard's imaginative strategy, firing continously. This cannot be good for the Mongol army, and Richard can lead his knights out in a charge whenever they get too close, provided that numbers are roughly even.

His troops are going to be sustaining casualties fast and early, and they have the disadvantage of being fixed in place and in very close formation. The Mongols are going to be more spread out in their traditional style. The crossbow bolts will have minimal lethality against the widely spaced horsemen, while the composite bows will be firing on a dense pocket of lightly armored men. This isn't a recipe for success.

[Ted]

The Yew Longbow had draw weights from 75 lbs to over 175 lbs, as well, the British archers used in France were typically mounted, 1000 of the Black Prince's 1300 archers were mounted.

As a tidbit, at Agincourt, the French faced volleys of 1000 arrows a second, based on the typical rate of 12 arrows a minute, with 5000 archers.

[Mark S]

The Yew Longbow had draw weights from 75 lbs to over 175 lbs, as well, the British archers used in France were typically mounted, 1000 of the Black Prince's 1300 archers were mounted.

As a tidbit, at Agincourt, the French faced volleys of 1000 arrows a second, based on the typical rate of 12 arrows a minute, with 5000 archers.

Um, the longbow is six feet tall. Good luck with that on horseback. They were used to stop charges by shooting knights off of there horses.

[Ted]

Um, the longbow is six feet tall. Good luck with that on horseback. They were used to stop charges by shooting knights off of there horses.

I said mounted, I did not say horse archers. They only used the horse for mobility, leading them to be nearly as mobile as the Mongols.

[StarshipTitanic]

Probably not. However, the hail of crossbow bolts would still do nasty things to Mongol horsemen and a line of pikes can't be a Good Thing.

You don't get it, the Mongols won't charge until this formation is broken up. And they will be broken up because they aren't going to stand there and take arrows like they are. Plus, bows have a longer range than crossbows.

If they're backed up against a river, they can't.

The Mongols are going to let Richard set up a huge fort right in front of them and intentionally get stuck between it and a river? Because that's what they'd have to do.

I would assume the steppes, in which case Richard would probably use his formation for his battle with Saladin if he brings them to battle.

He'd quickly get surrounded since he isn't moving and get peppered with archers until his men run away. Then the Mongols charge with their swords etc and slaughter them. By this time, they won't have horses.

The crossbows were, due to Richard's imaginative strategy, firing continously. This cannot be good for the Mongol army, and Richard can lead his knights out in a charge whenever they get too close, provided that numbers are roughly even.

That would run contrary to Mongol strategy! They do not charge a well-entrenched enemy until he is broken! And bows have a much longer range than crossbows.

The Yew Longbow had draw weights from 75 lbs to over 175 lbs, as well, the British archers used in France were typically mounted, 1000 of the Black Prince's 1300 archers were mounted.

As a tidbit, at Agincourt, the French faced volleys of 1000 arrows a second, based on the typical rate of 12 arrows a minute, with 5000 archers.

Which Henry did not have during the Third Crusade, I am fairly certain of that.

I said mounted, I did not say horse archers. They only used the horse for mobility, leading them to be nearly as mobile as the Mongols.

Nearly? Bah, let me see something that says this.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

The most powerful army of Europe in the 13th century - the Hungarian army - was defeated by the Mongols, and Richard, though having better archery, has nothing on the Hungarians in any other way. This isn't really much of a contest.

[fgalkin]

This was Richard's strategy against Saladin:

In Palestine, when forced to defend against horse archers, he placed his pikemen in the front lines with the pike butt in the sand and the point level with a horse's chest. In the intervals he placed a crossbowman, standing, with another crossbowman behid who loaded a crossbow passed back by the man in front, passing him an already loaded one in exchange. Essentially, the hail of crossbow bolts kept the horse archers at bay and they couldn't charge because of the pikes.

Then Richard dies. The Mongol bow outranges the Enlish crossbow.

When he marched, he kept his army in order, and Saladin's horse archers failed to penetrate the 'thick cassock of felt' each foot soldier. The crossbowmen kept up their stream of fire, inflicting serious casualities against the horse archers. When Saladin attacked Richard openly, Richard waited until Saladin's forces had been commited and then charged with his knights, breaking the horse archers and the Muslim infantry.

The felt won't stop the Mongol bows.

I have no idea how well this strategy will work against the Mongols, however, but keep in mind that European heavy cavalry was probably the best the world had ever seen.

It won't work at all.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[fgalkin]

Mongol equpment and tactics:

The Mongols changed the nature of warfare. Perhaps, one-to-one, the Russian and Mongol warrior would have been an even match. However the Mongols were both tactically and strategically superior to any power on earth at the time. The Mongol army essentially consisted of cavalry accompanied by engineers. Their mounted troops were extremely mobile, hardened to privation and carnage, and highly disciplined. The mounted warriors were self-sufficient. Each carried a panoply of weapons including a composite bow with a 150 pound draw weight, saber, lance, battle axe, and lasso. They wore leather or iron helmets and leather or mail cuirasses.(7) Mongol horsemen could fire arrows rapidly while at a gallop, and they had a formidable choice of arrows at their disposal: armor piercing, incendiary, explosive, and even arrows designed to whistle in flight.(8) The level of organization of the Mongol army is not seen elsewhere in the Middle Ages and stands in marked contrast to that of the feuding Russian Princes. Mongol units in the field used drums, pennants, and lanterns to communicate, and sent message riders to coordinate armies separated by hundreds of miles.

Mongol attacks began with light cavalry firing arrows at a distance, retreating as required, until the enemy was encircled. Then, heavy cavalry attacked at close quarters. A principle of Mongol warfare was to eradicate opponents entirely, often invading new countries in the process of pursuit. The Asian horsemen were also masters of psychological warfare. They had an extensive spy and propaganda network that moved well in advance of troops. The Mongols also used mass murder and terror to their advantage. Countless people were tortured and slaughtered, cities leveled, and atrocities committed. In some cases, the Mongols used captive civilians as shock troops. The Tale of the Destruction of Riazan vividly describes the fall of one Russian city:

"...On dawn of the sixth day the pagan warriors began to storm the city, some with firebrands, some with battering rams, and others with countless scaling ladders for ascending the walls of the city. And they took the city of Riazan on the 21st day of December...And the Tartars cut down many people, including women and children...And they killed without exception all monks and priests. And churches of God were destroyed, and much blood was spilled on the holy altars. And not one man remained alive in the city. All were dead. All had drunk the same bitter cup to the dregs..."

http://www.geocities.com/ilyana7/novgorod/nov11.html

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Darth Gojira]

The crossbows were, due to Richard's imaginative strategy, firing continously. This cannot be good for the Mongol army, and Richard can lead his knights out in a charge whenever they get too close, provided that numbers are roughly even.

They wont be. The Mongols could easily field a five to one, and more likely ten to one advantage in numbers. European armies of the period where mere vanguards for the Mongol forces.

That's why, in the original thread hijack, I allowed Richard Barbarossa's army and the Louis' (?) French knights. Insert your own French joke. I got this idea after reading The Sword and the Scimitar a book on the Crusades, while the Genghis Khan angle came when I read The Cartoon History of the Universe Part 3 which compared the Crusaders and the Mongols.