New EU constitution: Federalism?

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-05-30 07:32pm

The new EU constitution proposed recently outlines a government that makes the EU more like a federal republic and less like a loose confederation. It calls for EU treaty superiority, EU law superiority, etc. Are the superstate fears correct? Will this new constitution infringe on national interests and rights and freedoms?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2950886.stm

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-05-30 07:33pm

Also theres a link to what the new constitution says:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2950276.stm

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2003-05-30 08:18pm

Infringe isn't the right word. The member states who signed on to this Constitution would be voluntarily surrendering their sovereignty to a new state, much like the U.S. states did when they adopted the present Constitution (the original 13 states were legally independent nations which happened to be allied in a confederation until 1788). If I were European, I wouldn't be happy about it, but it's not my decision, and it makes a certain amount of sense for them (especially for the smaller states).

Now, as for whether the federalized EU tramples on individual rights or ignores regional interests, that remains to be seen--paranoia about a "superstate" aside, I don't see the EU doing anything that its member states don't do. One question: will citizens of EU countries be able to directly elect their representatives to the European Parliament?

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2003-05-30 08:25pm

Having gone through the BBC article, this can hardly be considered "federalizing". Though the EU would gain some important new powers and all citizens of member states would recieve EU citizenship on top of their national citizenship, the EU is still nowhere near as powerful as the American federal government even in its bare-bones Constitutional form, and certainly not in its modern arrangement.

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2003-05-30 09:32pm

*Falls in extasy*

You know I'm completely for a federal E.U, right?

Citizen of the European Union.. Ahhhh. It sounds so good.. No more Portuguese jokes. No more people mistaking us for Spain. Ahhhh.. It feels like paradise.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2003-05-30 10:32pm

Colonel Olrik wrote:*Falls in extasy*

You know I'm completely for a federal E.U, right?

Citizen of the European Union.. Ahhhh. It sounds so good.. No more Portuguese jokes. No more people mistaking us for Spain. Ahhhh.. It feels like paradise.

So you would prefer being Euican to being Portuguese ?

It doesn't however lead to a Federal Europe, the Federalists aren't that happy over the draft because they don't think it goes far enough.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » 2003-05-30 10:55pm

Colonel Olrik wrote:*Falls in extasy*

You know I'm completely for a federal E.U, right?

Citizen of the European Union.. Ahhhh. It sounds so good.. No more Portuguese jokes. No more people mistaking us for Spain. Ahhhh.. It feels like paradise.

And to think, you'd stop being British puppets and become Brussels puppets.

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2003-05-30 11:52pm

I cant wait till the local populations demand no taxation without representation.
If adopted it is a bare bones start to a USE.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-05-31 12:03am

well when i said infringe i mean for places like, say, holland, which have very loose laws are a variety of things, the EU might pass a law banning marijuana, which the dutch wouldnt like, but the majority of the EU parliament might indeed like. things like that.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2003-05-31 12:17am

Technically the constitution does jack. It has been another waste of money, and more hot air. The principals haven't actually changed, the difference is rather than having 100+ pages in each document, of each already standing EU treaty, the aim was to make it more accessable to the EU's citizens. That is one part of the 'constitution'. So in essence, EU law already has preceedance on many grounds, and all judges of all the member states already know this.

The other 'aim' was to make the decision making process more streamlined, since the EU 15 works so-so, but could you imagine the same process with the EU 25?! And that's what is causing all the fuss.

As for the MEP, the people do already directly vote for them, it's the 'hated' (by Eurosceptics) Comission, that aren't. But since the Comission is about the only thing that gets anything done inside the EU, I say keep it.

The major gripe is about the perminante President of the EU. Currently it rotates every 6 months, meaning that everyone gets a turn at the head of the table. However if this is changed, then the President will nearly always be British, French, German possibly Spainish, or Polish or Italian. Mainly the big boys, which has got the smaller states (Dutch, Danes, Portuguese, Greeks, etc) up in arms.

Look I am all for a more Federal (but not yet a total Federal) EU. As Romano Prodi (President of the Comission) said on the BBC, Europe is a bad partner to the US. In every regard, we are less effiecient. The EU states, collectively, have about 60% of the US's military budget and only 10% of its capabilities.

And no, I am not campaigning for an EU army as such, but the first step is a common military requirement. Requests For Proposals (RFP), for aircraft, ships, tanks, whatever, vary from country to country. Why not set up common RFP's, thus allowing to streamline expense and make the individual armies more effective?

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2003-05-31 07:41am

TheDarkling wrote: So you would prefer being European to being Portuguese ?

I'll always be Portuguese. The spanish regions, for example, maintain their cultural differences and identities despite being a sole country.

To the outside world yes, I prefer to be E.U first and only then Portuguese.

It doesn't however lead to a Federal Europe, the Federalists aren't that happy over the draft because they don't think it goes far enough.

Yes, I know. And it's good that way. There are a load of things to sort out before even thinking about going more fed.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2003-05-31 11:09am

Europe ha needed to unite in common interest for some time...I have no fear of a united europe or a superstate. They have more common sense than the US IMHO. Hell they said Fuck You to the vatican.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2003-05-31 11:12am

They need the trade, military, and political muscle to stand up to the US should we become...agressive.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-05-31 01:44pm

Another nail in the coffin of getting the UK in.

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2003-05-31 01:52pm

SirNitram wrote:Another nail in the coffin of getting the UK in.

Eh? In what?

The U.K is E.U for a long time, and there's no question of it getting out..

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2003-05-31 04:34pm

Hey Olrik! I'm going to be in Western Spain near Validodad this summer for a few weeks. Want me to stop by so you can meet/punch me in person?

Seriously, though, in America Portugal is "cooler" than Spain.

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2003-05-31 04:57pm

CaptainChewbacca wrote:Hey Olrik! I'm going to be in Western Spain near Validodad this summer for a few weeks. Want me to stop by so you can meet/punch me in person?

I'm currently trying to control a robotic arm, it would be a good way to field test it. If you're visiting Lisbon, give me a call.

Seriously, though, in America Portugal is "cooler" than Spain.

Well, yeah, we are because they smell. Also, they're a bunch of no good jerks who tried to invade us countless times only to get their ass kicked out of here. So there.

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2003-05-31 05:01pm

Sadly, the warrants for me in Lisbon are still good.

Thankfully, I'm not important enough to warrant extradition.

Didn't you guys secede from Spain way back when? And why'd you give up Brazil? That place ROCKS!!

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2003-05-31 05:06pm

CaptainChewbacca wrote:Sadly, the warrants for me in Lisbon are still good. Thankfully, I'm not important enough to warrant extradition.

Didn't you guys secede from Spain way back when? And why'd you give up Brazil? That place ROCKS!!

I wouldn't call it seceding. We were a united kindgom (same king, different states) only for sixty years, from 1580 to 1640. When the spanish started getting abusive (trying to assimilate us) the nobles elected a portuguese king and kicked the fuckers out.

We held brazil until late 19th century. When one of our princes, who was leading Brazil, declared independence we gave it to them. War would be futile.

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2003-05-31 05:31pm

Back on topic, here's an interesting opinion about this issue.

http://www.cer.org.uk/pdf/briefing_gisc ... tution.pdf

It starts with this phrase

The draft constitution for the EU published on 26 and 27 May has provoked a ferocious debate in the
British press. However, on closer inspection, the text would not fundamentally change the UK’s position in
the EU, and it secures nearly all of the British government’s key objectives.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2003-05-31 07:16pm

Colonel Olrik wrote:Well, yeah, we are because they smell. Also, they're a bunch of no good jerks who tried to invade us countless times only to get their ass kicked out of here. So there.

And you want to be in a federal union with them?

Then again, I understand the rest of the United States tolerates New Jersey, so perhaps the sentiment isn't so hard to understand.

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2003-05-31 07:38pm

RedImperator wrote:
Colonel Olrik wrote:Well, yeah, we are because they smell. Also, they're a bunch of no good jerks who tried to invade us countless times only to get their ass kicked out of here. So there.
And you want to be in a federal union with them?

The chances were that, left alone, Spain would end up owning our economy (since theirs is more than four times bigger) with the globalization. It's far better to join the Euro currency than having our currency dependant of our much stronger neighbour.

Then again, I understand the rest of the United States tolerates New Jersey, so perhaps the sentiment isn't so hard to understand.

Yeah, and on the positive side we get to be in the same country of fine people like the English, dutch, german, fins, etc.

You can have the spanish and the frog eaters, though

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2003-05-31 07:46pm

I like the Spanish speakers from my hemisphere, but Hispanic women are much, MUCH more attractive than actual Spanish women. And we've already got Quebec on this side of the pond, though our Founding Fathers, in their political wisdom and military ineptitude, ensured there would be at least one international border between them and us. You're stuck with the frogs that can't play hockey.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2003-05-31 11:42pm

Colonel Olrik wrote:
SirNitram wrote:Another nail in the coffin of getting the UK in.
Eh? In what?

The U.K is E.U for a long time, and there's no question of it getting out..

Since when?

Honestly unless the UK shapes up it will only drag the rest of the EU down by preventing further integration.

It is the French you see, we really, really, Really dislike the French, we could get along with any other European nation (except maybe the Francophone ones) but ugh the French.

On a related topic, coming from one of the "little guys" (although not the tiny guys) what is your opinion on a proper EU president, I think the smaller countries are really hamstringing the EU in that area.

Lord Sander · Post by **Lord Sander** » 2003-06-01 12:27am

TheDarkling wrote:
Colonel Olrik wrote:The U.K is E.U for a long time, and there's no question of it getting out..
Since when?

1973.

TheDarkling wrote:Honestly unless the UK shapes up it will only drag the rest of the EU down by preventing further integration.

It is the French you see, we really, really, Really dislike the French, we could get along with any other European nation (except maybe the Francophone ones) but ugh the French.

On a related topic, coming from one of the "little guys" (although not the tiny guys) what is your opinion on a proper EU president, I think the smaller countries are really hamstringing the EU in that area.

Coming from one of the tiny guys, I don't like it. The smaller countries would never get in, and I don't like the idea of some sovereign states being marginalized because the Germans and French happen to have more citizens.
Other than that, I'm very much Pro-EU.