[Rant ((I guess))]Why I hate the Romans

Tasoth · Post by **Tasoth** » 2003-05-29 06:47pm

Playing hookie from school is fun, especially with cable, with cable comes the history channel, and with History comes learning. Today was interesting, as a show about the greatest losses in history was on. I caught the part about the fire in London that burnt down the majority of the city and then Alexandria. Now I had an inkling of what was so special about Alexandria, The Great Library. I also understood that it was lost. What I didn't know was that they supposedly had an actual working model of a steam engine. And you know what else I learned? The Roman's burnt it down! That's right, because the emperor at the time couldn't keep it in his pants and cleopatra was such an amazing seductress, it got burnt down. Bastards....

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-05-29 06:51pm

A lot of technology was invented pretty early. Commerical use on the other hand is harder.

And I think you don't quite understand the purpose of playing hooky.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2003-05-29 07:05pm

The working model of the steam engine survived until the fall of Byzantium. Problem was that no one had any practical application for it.

That said...

MOREM AD BARBARUM!

-charges Tasoth-

Tasoth · Post by **Tasoth** » 2003-05-29 07:17pm

MOREM AD BARBARUM!

GAH! Latin! *dives out from infront of his cannon as it goes off*

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2003-05-29 07:17pm

Nothing was lost in the destruction of the Library of Alexandria that was not duplicated within the walls of Constantinople.

Also, the library was really only finally and totally destroyed by earthquakes, and by damage during the Arab invasion. The civil conflict between Ptolemy (later with Arsinoe taking up that cause at the behest of her advisors) and Cleopatra and her Roman allies on the other side damaged it but didn't destroy it.

The fire was probably accidental in any case; things like that happen during large-scale combat in cities.

Finally, one must remember that there was simply no need for the steam engine in those times. Human labour could provide for all the requirements of the day. So, really, the use it was limited to consisted of opening and closing the doors of a temple, and, later, elevating and lowering the throne of the Byzantine Empire (the knowledge was not lost, as I said, and was duplicated in Constantinople) and powering a few amusing metallic animals to make noises and move limbs within the Bucoleon.

The real destruction was the Fourth Crusade, when the Latins conquered Constantinople and did so much damage to the city in the looting and seizure. By that time the knowledge had been concentrated there, and much was indeed lost.

EmperorChrostas the Cruel · Post by **EmperorChrostas the Cruel** » 2003-05-29 07:24pm

Yeah yeah. The Egyptians had electrical tech. What did they do with it?
Counterfit money, and make jewelry. Knowledge is but a part of the picture.
The Romans had steam power, and what did they do with it? TOYS!

The culture is more important than the tech base at the beginning.
The scientific method is the backbone of scientific/technological progress. Without it, and a culture that VALUES progress, knowledge is useless.
There was no NEED for Rome to use steam power. That's what slaves and beasts are for. We don't CARE if there is a way that is easier on the underclass.
Case and point, the only real losses in the library of Alexandia were history and art. All tech stuff was rediscovered, later when the culture was right.
Their history would be interesting,and biased.
Their art was ok, if you are into that sort of thing.(I personaly find art that predates the concept of perspective, and the vanishing point, to be shitty. Along with all the other "non representational" art. That's MY opinion about art, there are 6 billion others.)

We could and did get along fine without both.

Edit, I stand corrected, none of the historical docs were lost, just copies.

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-05-30 03:57am

While we are talking about the Romans in Egypt, I've heard that the Romans actually "knocked off" the Sphinx' nose with the specific purpose of mocking the Egyptians! (Or was it Napoleon who is rumoured to have done this?)

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2003-05-30 04:31am

Simon H.Johansen wrote:While we are talking about the Romans in Egypt, I've heard that the Romans actually "knocked off" the Sphinx' nose with the specific purpose of mocking the Egyptians! (Or was it Napoleon who is rumoured to have done this?)

Everyone who's ever occupied Egypt has been blamed for knocking the Sphinx's nose off. It's the perfect of petty and stupid official vandalism to blame on whomever you're raking over the coals.

BTW, damaging the Sphinx pales in comparison to the Muslims stripping the outer casing of the Pyramids for the limestone to build mosques. And if the Islamofascists ever get a hold of Egypt, be ready for 5000 years of human history to be given the Taliban treatment.

Darth Gojira · Post by **Darth Gojira** » 2003-05-30 07:39am

Wasn't it the newly unleashed warrior monks which trashed the library?

If so, the Crusaders and the Imperial Muslims have competition in the worst assholes in religious history!

StarshipTitanic · Post by **StarshipTitanic** » 2003-05-30 08:09am

RedImperator wrote:BTW, damaging the Sphinx pales in comparison to the Muslims stripping the outer casing of the Pyramids for the limestone to build mosques. And if the Islamofascists ever get a hold of Egypt, be ready for 5000 years of human history to be given the Taliban treatment.

I assume they also stole the top of one of them, right?

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2003-05-30 01:25pm

StarshipTitanic wrote:
RedImperator wrote:BTW, damaging the Sphinx pales in comparison to the Muslims stripping the outer casing of the Pyramids for the limestone to build mosques. And if the Islamofascists ever get a hold of Egypt, be ready for 5000 years of human history to be given the Taliban treatment.
I assume they also stole the top of one of them, right?

According to some sources, actually, they did--they decided to dismantle them but gave up rather quickly (as they're nothing but piles of solid rock, they're virtually impossible to demolish without the aid of high explosives).

Vertigo1 · Post by **Vertigo1** » 2003-05-30 01:46pm

From what I heard, the sphinx nose was shot of by roman soldiers using it as target practice with arrows....

But to do that would take an aweful lot of arrows.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2003-05-30 03:54pm

Vertigo1 wrote:From what I heard, the sphinx nose was shot of by roman soldiers using it as target practice with arrows....

But to do that would take an aweful lot of arrows.

I've heard the Ottoman Turks and the Arabs. The Ottomans just for target practice, the Arabs because the Sphinx was an idol (though if that's the case I wonder why they didn't smash the whole face).

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-05-30 05:24pm

RedImperator wrote:
According to some sources, actually, they did--they decided to dismantle them but gave up rather quickly (as they're nothing but piles of solid rock, they're virtually impossible to demolish without the aid of high explosives).

A lot of high explosives... Hell a very small tac nuke wouldn't finish one off.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-05-30 05:29pm

BTW, damaging the Sphinx pales in comparison to the Muslims stripping the outer casing of the Pyramids for the limestone to build mosques. And if the Islamofascists ever get a hold of Egypt, be ready for 5000 years of human history to be given the Taliban treatment.

They're already there, but we pay them to pretend they aren't.

2000AD · Post by **2000AD** » 2003-05-30 05:57pm

Wasn't it the Romans who killed Archimedes?
Is it true that Archimedes was doing calculus waaaay before we discovered it?

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 2003-05-30 06:38pm

As far as I know the staff at Alexandria's Library duplicated every book they could get their hands on.

Constantinople was a great city but my knowledge of it is greatly lacking.

It seems as if more and more interesting things keep coming out of India every year, I wouldn't doubt if there was once a civilization there that was at least pre-industrial, containing many technologies.

The Romans and Greeks had a steam engine. I do not know why the Greeks didn't use it but the Romans were making more money off of the slave market to switch to the Steam Engine.

Yes, the Egyptians had the pocibility of electricity and a light bulb. Did they in reality? That is up to speculation.

Well at least the Sphynx has something in common with Michael Jackson.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-05-30 07:03pm

The egyptians built the original sphynx around 10-12kya as evidenced by the rain weathering. They carved blocks out the size of train cars. They MOVED blocks of stone as big as a train car, and supposedly werent even out of the caves.

Ponder that one.

Post by **Zaia** » 2003-05-30 07:19pm

kojikun wrote:The egyptians built the original sphynx around 10-12kya as evidenced by the rain weathering. They carved blocks out the size of train cars. They MOVED blocks of stone as big as a train car, and supposedly werent even out of the caves.

Ponder that one.

Did you see that show entitled "Mysteries of the Sphynx" on the Travel Channel, by any chance? It was all about the rain weathering as opposed to wind weathering and other information backing up the claim that it's a hell of a lot older than history currently claims.

Just wondering. It was really fascinating.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-05-30 07:24pm

Yep. Schock is right, too. Theres a lot of evidence for an older predynastic civilisation, but not hardly as much as for the dynastic civilisation, and its probably often mistaken for dynastic stuff. The Sphynx, its temple, and the Osirion or whatever its called all are from that era.

I'm quite certain there was soem high civilisation back then, almost roman level, but maybe without metal working (maybe) that declined when the glaciers started melting. Flooding could easilly wipe out the coastal cities and force migration, which explains why there are so few actual sites. But theres also shitload of evidence for atleast a large scale egyptian-olmec trade route (obviously african faces on ancient mexican carvings, tabacco in mummies despite tabacco being native only to the americas, etc). And then theres all those gigantic monuments covered by 100 feet of water..

I think the past is more clouded then we know. btw, that last bit is from Graham Hancock.

EmperorChrostas the Cruel · Post by **EmperorChrostas the Cruel** » 2003-05-30 07:56pm

Jeremy. The Egyptians having electricity and electro plating is not speculation. They have found batterys, and plating pots, with electroplating material residue still in the pots. They have also found silver plated coins!

2000AD. The Romans didn't even have long division, (impossible to do with roman numeral) much less algebra. Calculus was a long way down the road. Sir Isaac Newton is credited with inventing algebra, although he only beat his rival with the same system by a few hours (days?) to the "patent office." The number zero is required to do higher math. So is the decimal point, which has the number zero as it's prerequisite.
TRY to do multiplication, and division, in Roman numerals I dare you. It is impossible. (unless you convert to base ten, in your head) Same with fractions.
There MIGHT be some way to do this math with Roman numerals, but the way I learned in school just couldn't work without the ability to line up numbers in columns.
123
X 45
______

Like that.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-05-30 08:14pm

One must remember that advancement comes from need and technology, not merely having one peice of the puzzle. However, to envision a Roman Empire with steam power, one must first establish how it progresses.

The only starting point of steam power for Rome is transport, and even that wasn't needed at the time. How could this be changed?

1) Population boom. Sudden bloom of people in Italy, forcing people to migrate in larger and larger numbers.

2) Expanded territory over long periods. If the frontier went much further, railways may have become necessary to keep troops moving. However, this territory must remain Roman for some time.

I'm sure there are other reasons that might exist.

Once transportation via steam power begins, it'll seep into other industries.. I think.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2003-05-30 08:44pm

The Romans did nearly all their math on abacuses. How do you think they worked out the engineering for all those projects with only Roman numerals to work with?

Vertigo1 · Post by **Vertigo1** » 2003-05-30 09:37pm

Zaia wrote:
kojikun wrote:The egyptians built the original sphynx around 10-12kya as evidenced by the rain weathering. They carved blocks out the size of train cars. They MOVED blocks of stone as big as a train car, and supposedly werent even out of the caves.

Ponder that one.
Did you see that show entitled "Mysteries of the Sphynx" on the Travel Channel, by any chance? It was all about the rain weathering as opposed to wind weathering and other information backing up the claim that it's a hell of a lot older than history currently claims.

Just wondering. It was really fascinating.

Yeah, I remember watching that a couple months ago. That was just neat how they went into so much detail about how it was built, how old they think it is, and how they came to those conclusions.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2003-05-31 10:47am

Zaia, Kojikun, go here and read every article:

http://www.thehallofmaat.com/maat/index.php

Particularly on the Orion Correlation Theory.