Thou Shalt Not Kill

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2003-05-31 06:49pm

innerbrat wrote:The thing about wording the law 'do not murder' - isn't murder unlawful killing? So how can the law tell you not to kill unlawfully without defining whe it is lawful? The simpler phrase 'do not kill' makes far more sense.

Yeah, that's the problem. They took ten commandments and made 30,000 levitical laws. Check out the torah, they'll tell you EXACTLY when its lawful to kill.

I can't even get through it all and I LIKE the bible.

Interesting note, leviticus also says what you can and cannot have sex with.

Arrow · Post by **Arrow** » 2003-05-31 06:49pm

Mark S wrote:"Jesus! Come, the leapors need healing."
"Can't you see I'm on a fucking break here?!"

[OT]That reminds me of a report I saw once on Canada's healthcare...[/OT]

DPDarkPrimus wrote:Which makes me recall a congresswomen (or was it senator?) from Texas who, when asked of her stance on whether Texas schools should become bi-lingual (meaning the teachers teach in English and Spanish, for you dolts out there)... she held up a copy of the Bible and said "If English was good enough for Jesus Christ, it's good enough for the Texas Education System."

I guess Texas has the same problem Florida does - it's full of and run by idiots.

InnerBrat · Post by **InnerBrat** » 2003-05-31 06:50pm

*cough* Hate to be an annoying nitpicker, Mike, but don't you mean on a Saturday?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-05-31 06:52pm

innerbrat wrote:*cough* Hate to be an annoying nitpicker, but don't you mean on a Saturday?

Close enough. Both days are what I like to call shopping days, not sabbath days

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-05-31 06:54pm

CaptainChewbacca wrote:Yeah, that's the problem. They took ten commandments and made 30,000 levitical laws. Check out the torah, they'll tell you EXACTLY when its lawful to kill.

The Ten Commandments do not explicitly mention these levitical laws, and among those laws are various insanities as you should well know.

I can't even get through it all and I LIKE the bible.

That's fascinating. How can you say you like it if there are parts of it that you can't or won't read?

Interesting note, leviticus also says what you can and cannot have sex with.

Leviticus says you shouldn't even wear a cotton/polyester shirt; it's insane.

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2003-05-31 06:56pm

And don't even get me STARTED on forbidding sex with reptiles.

As for liking? I like Star Wars, and the EU. But I'll never read Planet of Twilight again.

Same thing.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-05-31 06:58pm

CaptainChewbacca wrote:And don't even get me STARTED on forbidding sex with reptiles.

As for liking? I like Star Wars, and the EU. But I'll never read Planet of Twilight again.

Same thing.

It is? Do you make excuses for "Planet of Twilight" when someone blasts it?

Lonestar · Post by **Lonestar** » 2003-05-31 07:35pm

SPOOFE wrote:
The commandment is "Don't Murder".
In the original language, yes, that is a more appropriate meaning. However, Creationists and Biblical Literalists insist that the Bible is 100% accurate even in its English version, which is what I think Mike is aiming his article towards.

C'mon Spoofe, you're smarter than this.

Fundalmentalists and Biblical Literalists think that the King James Version is the correct translation of the Bible.

I do not know why this is, it just is. The KJV is where the "Thou shalt not Kill" mistranslation occured. Names of Pharohs were also randomly applied to the Exodus.

That said, "thou shalt not Murder" seems like a pretty good law.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-05-31 07:37pm

Lonestar wrote:That said, "thou shalt not Murder" seems like a pretty good law.

Until you find out just how many forms of lawful killing exist in Mosaic Law, which was the whole point of my spoof post in the first place.

Lonestar · Post by **Lonestar** » 2003-05-31 07:38pm

Darth Wong wrote: ... in which every man, woman, child and infant in the city had to die because they had all been judged together for the act of a few men who accosted God's servants? Sorry, but if you don't think that's murder, you're fucked in the head. And that is but one of the many examples I listed in that post. Try again.

IIRC, Abraham couldn't find 5 decent men in the entire city of Sodom (although nothing is said of Gomorrah, however, besides that it could 'sploded)

Lonestar · Post by **Lonestar** » 2003-05-31 07:39pm

Darth Wong wrote: Until you find out just how many forms of lawful killing exist in Mosaic Law, which was the whole point of my spoof post in the first place.

Yep, good thing Jesus gave us the new covenant in the New Testament, eh?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-05-31 07:46pm

Lonestar wrote:
Darth Wong wrote: Until you find out just how many forms of lawful killing exist in Mosaic Law, which was the whole point of my spoof post in the first place.
Yep, good thing Jesus gave us the new covenant in the New Testament, eh?

I see you are resorting to legal disclaimer #3.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-05-31 07:47pm

Lonestar wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:... in which every man, woman, child and infant in the city had to die because they had all been judged together for the act of a few men who accosted God's servants? Sorry, but if you don't think that's murder, you're fucked in the head. And that is but one of the many examples I listed in that post. Try again.
IIRC, Abraham couldn't find 5 decent men in the entire city of Sodom (although nothing is said of Gomorrah, however, besides that it could 'sploded)

No decent men, huh? How about women, children, and infants? Kill 'em all along with the men? I've made this point twice already to CaptainChewbacca. He, like you, chose to ignore it.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-05-31 07:51pm

You don't understand, these commandments are only for the follower's not those that they follow.

SPOOFE · Post by **SPOOFE** » 2003-05-31 07:53pm

C'mon Spoofe, you're smarter than this.

Fundalmentalists and Biblical Literalists think that the King James Version is the correct translation of the Bible.

Well, yeah, but in their defense, the New American Version and the New International Version are really poorly written.

Einhander Sn0m4n · Post by **Einhander Sn0m4n** » 2003-05-31 08:00pm

CaptainChewbacca wrote:
RedImperator wrote:Where's Evil Grey to explain how this demonstrates your complete misunderstanding of the Bible and illustrates how an athiest can't understand true morality?
I'll fill in. I'm a christian, but I'm not here to defend myself. The commandment is "Don't Murder". There are many times when God himself saw killing as necessary (see Soddom & Gommorah for references)

*throws smoke bomb and disappears before getting shot*

I'd ask about all the innocent children and babies the god had to kill with his nuclear weapons, but Darth Wong beat me to the punch. Either way...

*dons infrared goggles (thereby nullifying the smoke bomb's effect: Smoke and infrared light get along very nicely

), aims Railgun at CaptainChewbacca's head, and messes up the Wookie's mind*

<(BZAPP!!!)>

{SPLAT!!}

*then hands the Bartender a Ic500 coin*

Here's a tip. My apologies for the mess...

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2003-05-31 08:17pm

Are you of need of any exceptions found in the New Testimate as well?

Saurencaerthai · Post by **Saurencaerthai** » 2003-05-31 08:22pm

Darth Wong wrote: Leviticus says you shouldn't even wear a cotton/polyester shirt; it's insane.

Incorrect. It indicates that you shouldn't wear fabric that has a mix of materials that come from plants and from animals. Such an example of this is wool and cotton mixed. It is a symbolic practice that refers back to the incident between Cain and Abel. The basic gist of it is the hope that there should never be such a hateful incident as that.

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2003-05-31 08:24pm

Saurencaerthai wrote:Incorrect. It indicates that you shouldn't wear fabric that has a mix of materials that come from plants and from animals. Such an example of this is wool and cotton mixed. It is a symbolic practice that refers back to the incident between Cain and Abel. The basic gist of it is the hope that there should never be such a hateful incident as that.

And this explaination is found in the book of Hesitations, or Lameassatations?

Saurencaerthai · Post by **Saurencaerthai** » 2003-05-31 08:29pm

Darth Wong wrote:This is the text of a single-page PDF file that I recently made up for fun.
Commandment #6
THOU SHALT NOT KILL

Legal disclaimer #1: exceptions to this commandment include Egyptian slave-owners (Exodus 2:12), touching Mount Sinai (Exodus 19:12), striking your parents (Exodus 21:15), kidnapping (Exodus 21:16), swearing at your parents (Exodus 21:17, Leviticus 20:9), murder (Exodus 21:23), breaking into someone's house (Exodus 22:2), sorcery (Exodus 22:18), bestiality (Exodus 22:19, Leviticus 20:15-16), worshipping other gods (Exodus 22:20), taking advantage of widows and orphans (Exodus 22:22), working on Sunday (Exodus 31:15, Leviticus 23:27, Numbers 15:36), worshipping idols (Exodus 32:28, Deuteronomy 32:21), adultery (Leviticus 20:10, Deuteronomy 22:22), incest (Leviticus 20:11), homosexuality (Leviticus 20:13), marrying both a woman and her mother (Leviticus 20:14), being a medium or spiritualist (Leviticus 20:27), prostitution if you're a priest's daughter (Leviticus 21:9), blasphemy (Leviticus 24:14), being an enemy of Israel (Leviticus 26:7), encroaching upon the Levites' altars (Numbers 1:51, Numbers 3:10, Numbers 18:3), defying the priesthood's authority (Numbers 16), being a Canaanite (Numbers 21:3), having sex with non-Israelites (Numbers 25:1-9), inviting Israelites to non-Israelite religious functions (Numbers 25:16), being a Midianite (Numbers 31:18), living in land that the Israelites want for themselves (Deuteronomy 2:34, Deuteronomy 3:6), being a Hittite, Girgashite, Amorite, Canaanite, Perizzite, Hivite or Jebusite (Deuteronomy 7:1), being a prophet for any religion other than Judaism (Deuteronomy 13:5), suggesting any religion other than Judaism (Deuteronomy 13:6), living in a town where they don't practice Judaism (Deuteronomy 13:12), worshipping other gods or celestial objects (Deuteronomy 17:2), disprespecting a priest (Deuteronomy 17:12), being a false prophet (Deuteronomy 18:20), refusing to become a slave to Israel if it so demands (Deuteronomy 20:10), being a "stubborn and rebellious" child (Deuteronomy 21:18), being a female and having premarital sex (Deuteronomy 22:20) or being raped and not calling out for help (Deuteronomy 22:23), rape (Deuteronomy 22:24), being the child of an idol-worshipper (Deuteronomy 32:24), witholding war booty from the church (Joshua 7:15), being a non-Israelite and living in the town of Jericho (Joshua 6:21), Ai (Joshua 8:25) or Makkeda or Libnah or Lachish or Gezer or Eglon or Hebron or Debir or any surrounding areas (Joshua 10:28-40) or Hazor (Joshua 11:10) or Jerusalem (Judges 1:8) or Zephath (Judges 1:17) or Bethel (Judges 1:25), opposing Israel (Judges 3:21, Judges 4:15), or being chosen as a human sacrifice to God (Judges 11:39), being an Ammonite (Judges 11:29), being a Philistine (Judges 15:15), having something that Samson needs to pay off his gambling debts (Judges 14:18), being part of the same tribe as a rapist (Judges 20:48), dodging the draft (Judges 28:10), being an Amalekite (1 Samuel 15:3-8) or Geshurite or Girzite (1 Samuel 27:8), being chosen as a child sacrifice to make God happy (2 Samuel 21:1,8-9), and many other exceptions (see rest of Old Testament).

Legal disclaimer #2: if you are God, exceptions include "the sons of God having children with the daughters of men" (Genesis 6:1), or being in the same city as a rapist (Genesis 19:24), or disobeying an arbitrary order not to look at your handiwork (Genesis 19:26), or a man "spilling his seed" (Genesis 38:10), or being the children of Egyptians (Exodus 2:29), or being Egyptian soldiers (Exodus 14:28). Other acceptable exceptions include worshipping idols (Exodus 32:35), making unauthorized fire (Leviticus 10:2), being a priest and not taking care of your appearance (Leviticus 10:6), breaking any of the rules in Leviticus (some of which include such harmless acts as eating shellfish or wearing clothes woven from two fabrics, Leviticus 26:14), being ungrateful to God (Numbers 11:1, Numbers 14:33, Numbers 21:5), breaking any of the rules in Deuteronomy (Deuteronomy 28:58), living in land the Israelites want (Joshua 10:11), possessing the Ark of the Covenant without being an Israelite (1 Samuel 5:6-12), looking into the Ark (1 Samuel 6:19), touching the Ark without proper reverence (2 Samuel 6:6-7), being the child of an Israelite/Hittite marriage (2 Samuel 12:10-18), completely random targeting for the purpose of taking away King David's guilt (2 Samuel 2:1,10,15), being the blameless child of an idol-worshipper (1 Kings 14:1,9-13), and many other exceptions (see rest of Old Testament).

Legal disclaimer #3: the authority of Old Testament law is disavowed by Christians who observe the New Testament and the "new covenant"... unless they still agree with those laws, in which case selected portions thereof can still be regarded as the infallible, immutable, perfect, absolute moral laws of God.
I've been thinking of putting the PDF for this one on my anti-Creationism website

As mentioned before, you quote a mistranslation right up front with the "Thou shalt not kill." While it does not cover every case mentioned above, please go read the Sanhedrin. It deals with a good amount of the ones you mentioned.
Not to cross post, but I did find where in the Torah it speaks of interperetation of the laws. Check out parshat Yitro (Shemot/Exodus Chapter 18.)

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-05-31 08:30pm

Mark S wrote:"Jesus! Come, the leapors need healing."
"Can't you see I'm on a fucking break here?!"

Funnily, if all work was not allowed on the Sabbath, then thieves could just go in and rob people, and the cops, who were off work, wouldn't stop them.

That gives me and idea.

UltraViolence83 · Post by **UltraViolence83** » 2003-05-31 08:34pm

DPDarkPrimus wrote:Which makes me recall a congresswomen (or was it senator?) from Texas who, when asked of her stance on whether Texas schools should become bi-lingual (meaning the teachers teach in English and Spanish, for you dolts out there)... she held up a copy of the Bible and said "If English was good enough for Jesus Christ, it's good enough for the Texas Education System."

God, that's a painful quote to read.

Saurencaerthai · Post by **Saurencaerthai** » 2003-05-31 08:47pm

Wicked Pilot wrote:
Saurencaerthai wrote:Incorrect. It indicates that you shouldn't wear fabric that has a mix of materials that come from plants and from animals. Such an example of this is wool and cotton mixed. It is a symbolic practice that refers back to the incident between Cain and Abel. The basic gist of it is the hope that there should never be such a hateful incident as that.
And this explaination is found in the book of Hesitations, or Lameassatations?

It's an interesting case, actually. Many considder it under a small category of laws that "didn't have any rational reason but are followed anyhow." However, this doesn't mean that the subject of Shaatnes isn't discussed. One of the best interperetations I've heard so far is the one above.

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2003-05-31 09:06pm

Saurencaerthai wrote:Talmud.

What the hell is that, some kind of Lebonese dish? And how does this relate? Are you just going to casually list obscure food groups are will you post revelant quotes?

Where's the beef?

Saurencaerthai · Post by **Saurencaerthai** » 2003-05-31 09:13pm

Wicked Pilot wrote:
Saurencaerthai wrote:Talmud.
What the hell is that, some kind of Lebonese dish? And how does this relate? Are you just going to casually list obscure food groups are will you post revelant quotes?

Where's the beef?

1. changed my post.
2. http://courses.jtsa.edu/tal/introdemo/intro/whytal.html
Read up, ignoramus.

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Thou Shalt Not Kill

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