New EU constitution: Federalism?

[TheDarkling]

1973.

Ah I should have put a to make my sarcasm clear.

Coming from one of the tiny guys, I don't like it. The smaller countries would never get in, and I don't like the idea of some sovereign states being marginalized because the Germans and French happen to have more citizens.
Other than that, I'm very much Pro-EU.

I don't see it that way, why should it matter if the President is German/British/anyone else except French, as long as s/he is good at the job, why be nationalist if you are pro EU and I see having a public figure to represent the EU helping it alot especially here in Britain, of course the President shouldn't be French because the UK would be less than happy with that and I seriously think getting the UK fully on board is an important step (towards sidelining the French within the EU).

[RedImperator]

Coming from one of the tiny guys, I don't like it. The smaller countries would never get in, and I don't like the idea of some sovereign states being marginalized because the Germans and French happen to have more citizens.
Other than that, I'm very much Pro-EU.

You could get yourselves an Electoral College system.

[Lord Sander]

Ah I should have put a to make my sarcasm clear.

Sorry, tired

I don't see it that way, why should it matter if the President is German/British/anyone else except French, as long as s/he is good at the job, why be nationalist if you are pro EU and I see having a public figure to represent the EU helping it alot especially here in Britain, of course the President shouldn't be French because the UK would be less than happy with that and I seriously think getting the UK fully on board is an important step (towards sidelining the French within the EU).

Oh, for certain having a more visible president with a longer term would be better, I just don't want the big boys to always decide who that president will be. It's not nationalist, it's about equality. I don't want the big countries to run my country, I want all countries to run Europe equally.
In the end I probably have nothing to worry about though. I'm certain that any proposal that gives the big guys more power than the small guys will simply be vetoed by the small guys.

As for the French, I propose giving Northern France to Belgium, Elsaß-Lothringen to Germany, Corsica to Italy, and letting the EU appoint a governor to run the rest of the country without them being represented

[Lord Sander]

You could get yourselves an Electoral College system.

*Shudders*
I knew someone would bring that up sooner or later.

[RedImperator]

You could get yourselves an Electoral College system.

*Shudders*
I knew someone would bring that up sooner or later.

Something like it, actually, might serve to rectify the problems the small states will face in Union-wide elections. In its most extreme form, each state could have only one vote for President, which will go to whichever candidate recieves a majority of the vote in the country. I'm not suggesting you adopt the American system, but something other than one-man, one-vote will be necessary unless you're resigned to Germany and France dominating the executive.

[TheDarkling]

Oh, for certain having a more visible president with a longer term would be better, I just don't want the big boys to always decide who that president will be. It's not nationalist, it's about equality. I don't want the big countries to run my country, I want all countries to run Europe equally.
In the end I probably have nothing to worry about though. I'm certain that any proposal that gives the big guys more power than the small guys will simply be vetoed by the small guys.

I'm no fan of the Veto either, the EU needs some democracy built into it and the rotating Presidency is a joke how often does the current EU president (or a representative from the president nation) come onto TV and waffle about the EU?

I have never seen such a thing and this is leading to apathy among the EU populace especially in (but not limited to) the UK, when they feel disconnected from Brussels they begin to think of it as a lot Eurocrats sitting deciding what size melons should be to actually be called a melon, of course that is because the right wing newspapers tell them that and they have nothing easily accessible to tell them otherwise.

As for the French, I propose giving Northern France to Belgium, Elsaß-Lothringen to Germany, Corsica to Italy, and letting the EU appoint a governor to run the rest of the country without them being represented

I know what I like, and this is it although who will get those lovely nukes they have? the Germans would probably put them of a bonfire or something because of their pacfisim.

[CmdrSweevo]

There are lots of good reasons for the UK disliking the Constitution. There are probably good reasons for wanting in, too, but the Government's not even trying to explain them, hence the scepticism of the public.

[NecronLord]

Excellent

*goes to look for the US comments about 'old europe' and 'new europe' and change to 'old US' and 'new US'*

[TheDarkling]

There are lots of good reasons for the UK disliking the Constitution. There are probably good reasons for wanting in, too, but the Government's not even trying to explain them, hence the scepticism of the public.

Most people will take the word of the sun over Blairs anyway, so I think sidestepping a vote on the constitution is a good idea.

The problem of the UK not thinking of itself as being a member of the EU needs to be addressed but I think reforms in the actual EU are needed to help that process along or the UK will continue to think of itself as outside the EU.

[Enforcer Talen]

*Falls in extasy*

You know I'm completely for a federal E.U, right?

Citizen of the European Union.. Ahhhh. It sounds so good.. No more Portuguese jokes. No more people mistaking us for Spain. Ahhhh.. It feels like paradise.

to quote peter wiggin, it will be much easier to take over with them as one big bloc, instead of waiting for them to fall to peices.

hehe

[Lord Sander]

Something like it, actually, might serve to rectify the problems the small states will face in Union-wide elections. In its most extreme form, each state could have only one vote for President, which will go to whichever candidate recieves a majority of the vote in the country. I'm not suggesting you adopt the American system, but something other than one-man, one-vote will be necessary unless you're resigned to Germany and France dominating the executive.

Oh, I agree. The reason why I think it's silly in America is because I don't perceive the individual states as equal sovereign countries, they're all Americans foremost, and therefore the majority of all Americans should be used.
Here, on the other hand, we are all equal sovereign countries, and we'll never be Europeans foremost (Olrik excepted ), and therefore the majority of all countries (regardless of population size) should be used.

[Lord Sander]

I'm no fan of the Veto either, the EU needs some democracy built into it and the rotating Presidency is a joke how often does the current EU president (or a representative from the president nation) come onto TV and waffle about the EU?

I have never seen such a thing and this is leading to apathy among the EU populace especially in (but not limited to) the UK, when they feel disconnected from Brussels they begin to think of it as a lot Eurocrats sitting deciding what size melons should be to actually be called a melon, of course that is because the right wing newspapers tell them that and they have nothing easily accessible to tell them otherwise.

The veto will go after the constitution takes effect, IIRC. I agree, just a democracy based on countries, not on populations.

I know what I like, and this is it although who will get those lovely nukes they have? the Germans would probably put them of a bonfire or something because of their pacfisim.

Redistribution of France's assets is key, just divide 'em and pass 'em around, if the Germans wanna throw away theirs, then that's their business

[RedImperator]

Oh, I agree. The reason why I think it's silly in America is because I don't perceive the individual states as equal sovereign countries, they're all Americans foremost, and therefore the majority of all Americans should be used.
Here, on the other hand, we are all equal sovereign countries, and we'll never be Europeans foremost (Olrik excepted ), and therefore the majority of all countries (regardless of population size) should be used.

Ah, but they WERE sovereign countries until 1790, when the last of the original 13 ratified the Constitution, and when they did ratify, they ratified with the understanding that the states would remain coequal entities that bore all the powers and responsibilities of government save those they explicitly delegated to the Federal government in the Constitution. And since each state is equal to every other, the 37 other states since admitted to the Union have the same rights and privledges as the first 13.

The electoral college system does a good job of balancing the will of the people with the rights of the states to be equal partners in the union. The people of each state vote to decide which candidate their state's electors can vote for (except for Maine, where electoral votes are divided by Congressional district, a system I personally like better than winner-take-all). A winner-take-all system might work better in the case of Europe. Dunno. I'm not that familiar with intra-European politics.

[TheDarkling]

The veto will go after the constitution takes effect, IIRC. I agree, just a democracy based on countries, not on populations.

I believe the number of issues that can have a veto cast will be curtailed but I dno't think they are scrapping it altogether.

Redistribution of France's assets is key, just divide 'em and pass 'em around, if the Germans wanna throw away theirs, then that's their business

I would put in a bid for Britany to be given to the UK but then there is the issue of those Frenchmen living there.

[Lord Sander]

Ah, but they WERE sovereign countries until 1790, when the last of the original 13 ratified the Constitution, and when they did ratify, they ratified with the understanding that the states would remain coequal entities that bore all the powers and responsibilities of government save those they explicitly delegated to the Federal government in the Constitution. And since each state is equal to every other, the 37 other states since admitted to the Union have the same rights and privledges as the first 13.

The electoral college system does a good job of balancing the will of the people with the rights of the states to be equal partners in the union. The people of each state vote to decide which candidate their state's electors can vote for (except for Maine, where electoral votes are divided by Congressional district, a system I personally like better than winner-take-all). A winner-take-all system might work better in the case of Europe. Dunno. I'm not that familiar with intra-European politics.

At that time it was a good system, times have changed for the US however. A Texan doesn't identify him/herself as a Texan, but as a 'Merican. All states have the same language, and from what I can tell, states' histories are almost non-existant in the public consciousness next to American history.
It's a singular unified country, and so each individual American should vote equally.

Europe is even more divided than America was even in its beginning. A European will always identify him/herself as being Dutch/French/German/British/etc., we will never have a single language (in fact, the EU made it a point to protect minority languages because the French were eroding them within their borders), and I don't think European history will ever really become more a part of the public consciousness than countries' histories.
We're just too diverse to be a singular unified country in the foreseeable future, and so each individual country should vote equally.

I hope I'm making any sense here
Maybe in 300 years, when we're all speaking Europeanese and honoring the first European to visit Alpha Centauri, we can switch to a majority-besed system

I believe the number of issues that can have a veto cast will be curtailed but I don't think they are scrapping it altogether.

Oh, well, I can live with that.

I would put in a bid for Britany to be given to the UK but then there is the issue of those Frenchmen living there.

A, Brittany, I knew I'd forgotten one piece.

[RedImperator]

At that time it was a good system, times have changed for the US however. A Texan doesn't identify him/herself as a Texan, but as a 'Merican. All states have the same language, and from what I can tell, states' histories are almost non-existant in the public consciousness next to American history.
It's a singular unified country, and so each individual American should vote equally.

This must be one of those situations where insiders can see differences that outsiders don't. There's quite a bit of difference between states and regions, and those differences would be inflamed if the large metropolitan areas on both coasts could totally dominate national politics. At any rate, if we need a system like that, we can agree that the future United States of Europe will probably need something other than one-man/one-vote.

[NapoleonGH]

You guys need a real capital and a real president if you hope of maintaining any form of European Spirit in my mind, no more switching capitals and switching presidents. The constitution planned is a step in the right direction.

About a long term president, hell look at the US, its not like every president is from Texas California or NY.

[kojikun]

More importantly, you need a fucking standard language. Just adopt English, since everyone knows it already, and make the capital either London or Berlin or maybe somewhere in switzerland like Geneva or something.

Then get a real military and economy.

[TheDarkling]

More importantly, you need a fucking standard language. Just adopt English, since everyone knows it already, and make the capital either London or Berlin or maybe somewhere in switzerland like Geneva or something.

Then get a real military and economy.

Have the EU capital outside the EU?? (Switzerland isn't a member... yet).

And English could be the standard Language, if every last Frenchmen in the EU was in the cold dead earth.

English is fast becoming the standard anyway, Denmark is considering language laws because without them it is predicted that Danish will die out as a complete language within 30 years.

[kojikun]

Have the EU capital outside the EU?? (Switzerland isn't a member... yet).

Ofcourse. It'll be a first in history. Besides, Switzerland is in the EU, just not part of it. That can be.. rectified.

And English could be the standard Language, if every last Frenchmen in the EU was in the cold dead earth.

That too can be rectified.

English is fast becoming the standard anyway, Denmark is considering language laws because without them it is predicted that Danish will die out as a complete language within 30 years.

Cool. Now all you need to do is create and entirely new Eurolingua that is more logically consistant then English and you're set.

[TheDarkling]

And English could be the standard Language, if every last Frenchmen in the EU was in the cold dead earth.

That too can be rectified.

I'm thinking poisoned frogs leg shipment, either that or do something to the horse meat they like to eat.

English is fast becoming the standard anyway, Denmark is considering language laws because without them it is predicted that Danish will die out as a complete language within 30 years.

Cool. Now all you need to do is create and entirely new Eurolingua that is more logically consistant then English and you're set.

[/quote]

Nah the UK wouldn't give up English, we are similar to the French in that respect except we back the winning side (or more correctly we were the winning side).

[RedImperator]

About a long term president, hell look at the US, its not like every president is from Texas California or NY.

Four of our first five Presidents were from Virginia, though.

[kojikun]

I'm thinking poisoned frogs leg shipment, either that or do something to the horse meat they like to eat.

Or "accidentally" ship poisonous frogs..

Nah the UK wouldn't give up English, we are similar to the French in that respect except we back the winning side (or more correctly we were the winning side).

Bugger. Well atleast you dont speak american english.

[Lord Sander]

You guys need a real capital and a real president if you hope of maintaining any form of European Spirit in my mind, no more switching capitals and switching presidents. The constitution planned is a step in the right direction.

I think Brussels is generally considered as the EU's real capital. Which should be fun if the Flemish and Walloons ever decide to part company, being located in the Dutch-speaking area but being mostly populated by Francophones.

About a long term president, hell look at the US, its not like every president is from Texas California or NY.

Yes, but you have the electoral college. It's not so much about who is president but whether we have a say in it at all.

More importantly, you need a fucking standard language. Just adopt English, since everyone knows it already, and make the capital either London or Berlin or maybe somewhere in switzerland like Geneva or something.

A standard language would never happen. And I think the capital is just fine being in Belgium.

Then get a real military and economy.

These, however, will happen at some point. I hope.

[Vympel]

Then get a real military and economy.

Europe's militaries are competent in defending themselves but not in power projection. Which is definitely not Europe's MO. There needs to be some standardization. One tank, one IFV, one artillery piece, etc etc.