Romulan Empire, declining?

[Dark Primus]

Voyager episode "Message in a Bottle" did gave me the impression the Romulans are falling behind in technology development comparing to the Federation. The USS Prometheus seperation manuver, turning one ship into three parts.
One Akira and two Defiants were able to stalemate three Warbirds on their own.
The tide of the battle was turned when the Prometheus destroyed one of the Warbirds.
In TNG era it would have at least taken three Galaxy class to challenge three Warbirds.
The Feds are adding more heavier firepower to smaller ships, making them far more powerful then any other ship comparable in size.

The latest arrival to the Romulan fleet, is the Romulan escort ships seen in Nemesis. Though the design was impressive but it showed some serius flaw in their design. For their size they lacked the firepower, shield strengh, not to mention hull strengh.
Who ever designed the ship probably thougth that the cloaking field would give them an edge. Making suprise attacks against unexpected target. But against a alerted target, take a Federation heavy cruiser or something heavier, they are probably going to need three or at least two of these ships to take it down succesfully with medium damages in return. I would probably bet my money on the Warbird instead of these ships in battle.

[DocMoriartty]

I don't see this as too much of a problem.

Lets look at the ships involved.

First you have two Defiant Class ships. They have very heavy firepower and shields relative to their size. While their total output doesnt equal a war mod Galaxy their small size makes them more survivable. I can easily see a Defiant taking on a full size Warbird and winning.

Second you have the Akira a class which appears to be one of the most combat dedicated ships in Starfleet outside the Defiants. She carries a huge torp load and can dish massive damage if those are Q Torps.

Personally I feel that those 3 ships would be more powerful in a fight than 3 standard class Galaxies and probably an even match for 3 war mod Galaxies.


As for the Valdore Class Warbirds. Those ships certainly appeared to be Light Cruisers. They were probably sent for their speed to get their in time as opposed to their overall firepower.

[Jorgasnarova]

According to the canonical tech manuals and the now-defunct official Trek magazine, your standard Rommie Warbird is slower than a Galaxy class cruiser but with slightly more firepower. A Warbird versus a Sovereign cruiser like the Enterprise-E, which is more of a dedicated warship than a Galaxy, would undoubtedly be a more even fight in terms of arsenals.

Another thing to consider is the fact the Reman Scimitar was depicted as being a major, major whup-ass ship even by Star Trek standards. It handily clobbered the two Valdore warbirds and was slicing and dicing the Enterprise with impunity until Picard rammed it. I don't think this signifies either class of ship as fragile, just the Scimitar is an extraordinarily tough opponent. (Although there has been a lot of speculation that the Valdore cruisers are faster than a standard Warbird, but less well armed and shielded, probably due to the Valdore's somewhat spindly appearance.)

Clearly, the Scimitar was designed to just absolutely overwhelm an adversary. Probably designed to engage multiple capital ship targets simultaneously. Based on the battle scenes I suspect one would need a five to one superiority at least to successfully engage it.

[Alyeska]

Actually the Sovereign class has a clear and significant firepower advantage over the Galaxy class. A Sovereign would rather easily handle a D'Deridex.

[The Silence and I]

Agreed, the post Nemesis Sovereign easily outguns the D'Deridex and the Galaxy. Also, is their any canon support for furthur modifications to the E-E after Nemesis (This is hinted at in a screenplay I picked up, but the movie differed significantly, so I take it with salt)?

Anyway, yes I think the Romulan Empire is declining, not so much in their technology (they built the Scimitar...) but in fleet numbers and over-all warmaking capability. Very sad way for them to go.

[Solauren]

If you'll remember, the Romulans were in the DOminion war, and they took alot of punishment, so there ship numbers are probably down.

Combine that with Shinzon (spelling) killing off most of the leadership and possible ship redeployment by Shinzon or the Romulan fleet commanders after the leaders died...

I think the Romulans are just in post-war clean up mode.

As for technology.

The Promethus was a proto-type, and most of the stat's I've seen (I have not seen official information) would rate the firepower of the Promethus in Mulit-vector attack mode ABOVE a Soverign over all

[Wrath]

I don't see this as too much of a problem.

Lets look at the ships involved.

First you have two Defiant Class ships. They have very heavy firepower and shields relative to their size. While their total output doesnt equal a war mod Galaxy their small size makes them more survivable. I can easily see a Defiant taking on a full size Warbird and winning.

Second you have the Akira a class which appears to be one of the most combat dedicated ships in Starfleet outside the Defiants. She carries a huge torp load and can dish massive damage if those are Q Torps.

Personally I feel that those 3 ships would be more powerful in a fight than 3 standard class Galaxies and probably an even match for 3 war mod Galaxies.


As for the Valdore Class Warbirds. Those ships certainly appeared to be Light Cruisers. They were probably sent for their speed to get their in time as opposed to their overall firepower.

I disagree, the defaint is a good addition to any fleet, but while its fire power is impressive its shields do let it down. and in most battles would run out of torps very quick.

while I agree a defiant can outgun a pre-war warbird, I do believe the warbird would have been upgraded much like the defaint class was during the war.

[Admiral Johnason]

According to the canonical tech manuals and the now-defunct official Trek magazine, your standard Rommie Warbird is slower than a Galaxy class cruiser but with slightly more firepower. A Warbird versus a Sovereign cruiser like the Enterprise-E, which is more of a dedicated warship than a Galaxy, would undoubtedly be a more even fight in terms of arsenals.

Another thing to consider is the fact the Reman Scimitar was depicted as being a major, major whup-ass ship even by Star Trek standards. It handily clobbered the two Valdore warbirds and was slicing and dicing the Enterprise with impunity until Picard rammed it. I don't think this signifies either class of ship as fragile, just the Scimitar is an extraordinarily tough opponent. (Although there has been a lot of speculation that the Valdore cruisers are faster than a standard Warbird, but less well armed and shielded, probably due to the Valdore's somewhat spindly appearance.)

Clearly, the Scimitar was designed to just absolutely overwhelm an adversary. Probably designed to engage multiple capital ship targets simultaneously. Based on the battle scenes I suspect one would need a five to one superiority at least to successfully engage it.

The Simitar was meant to be a WMD platform, not a battleship. It is slow and open to assualt when charging the main weapon.

Anyone else here getting tired of this nOOb invasion?

[DocMoriartty]

I disagree, the defaint is a good addition to any fleet, but while its fire power is impressive its shields do let it down. and in most battles would run out of torps very quick.

while I agree a defiant can outgun a pre-war warbird, I do believe the warbird would have been upgraded much like the defaint class was during the war.

When do we see the Defiant lose shields other in some bullshit episode excuse?

Also do we ever see the Defiant actually run out of torps at any point?

[Burak Gazan]

If I recall correctly in "The Search" her shields were removed the old-fashioned way, pounded flat by a number of Jem'Hadar attack ships, then she was boarded.

[seanrobertson]

Voyager episode "Message in a Bottle" did gave me the impression the Romulans are falling behind in technology development comparing to the Federation. The USS Prometheus seperation manuver, turning one ship into three parts.

Solely on the basis of Prometheus? Yes, perhaps. She managed to kick the dogshit out of a Nebula AND Warbird with only a few seconds of firing.

One Akira and two Defiants were able to stalemate three Warbirds on their own.

Hmm...I dunno about that. They were probably all that could be spared to that area.

IIRC, the Akira took one Romulan disruptor beam. The Defiants were never hit, probably because the Warbirds were focusing on the Prometheus.

At no point, however, was it implied that the Starfleet task force could take on the Warbirds all by its own.

The tide of the battle was turned when the Prometheus destroyed one of the Warbirds.
In TNG era it would have at least taken three Galaxy class to challenge three Warbirds.
The Feds are adding more heavier firepower to smaller ships, making them far more powerful then any other ship comparable in size.

I agree on the former count; in TNG, you'd at least want numerical parity with a Romulan fleet if you hoped to match it.

I also agree that the Feds have successfully miniaturized their firepower, especially after the introduction of quantum torpedoes; however, I do not believe said ships are even close to a match for Warbirds and other, very heavily-armed capships.

The latest arrival to the Romulan fleet, is the Romulan escort ships seen in Nemesis. Though the design was impressive but it showed some serius flaw in their design. For their size they lacked the firepower, shield strengh, not to mention hull strengh.

No, yes and yes: of that one "no," they did seem to wield decent firepower.

Who ever designed the ship probably thougth that the cloaking field would give them an edge. Making suprise attacks against unexpected target. But against a alerted target, take a Federation heavy cruiser or something heavier, they are probably going to need three or at least two of these ships to take it down succesfully with medium damages in return. I would probably bet my money on the Warbird instead of these ships in battle.

Your pronouns confuse me in this last paragraph. Please clarify

Thanks--and in so saying, I do not mean in a TOWNMNBS way!!!!!!!!!!

Agh. Old joke, I know

[Ronaldo]

Agreed, the post Nemesis Sovereign easily outguns the D'Deridex and the Galaxy. Also, is their any canon support for furthur modifications to the E-E after Nemesis (This is hinted at in a screenplay I picked up, but the movie differed significantly, so I take it with salt)?

Anyway, yes I think the Romulan Empire is declining, not so much in their technology (they built the Scimitar...) but in fleet numbers and over-all warmaking capability. Very sad way for them to go.

I don't understand how you have reached this conclusion. From DS9 we learn that the Romulans and the Federation are going to be in the best strategic position after the war. This was stated by Admiral Ross in the episode where Bashir is duped by Section 31 into helping them discredit a Romulan senator.

In Nemesis, the Romulan Navy supported Shinzon and was prepared to launch a full-scale invasion of the Federation. There weren't any major scenes to confirm this except for the dialogue. If you saw that movie and were paying enough attention to the dialogue you should have heard this. That, to me anyways, does not suggest that the military might of the RSE is declining. It does suggest that the Federation and Klingons are weak enough that the Romulans would be willing to launch an invasion of the Federation.

[Dark Primus]

In Nemesis, the Romulan Navy supported Shinzon and was prepared to launch a full-scale invasion of the Federation. There weren't any major scenes to confirm this except for the dialogue. If you saw that movie and were paying enough attention to the dialogue you should have heard this. That, to me anyways, does not suggest that the military might of the RSE is declining. It does suggest that the Federation and Klingons are weak enough that the Romulans would be willing to launch an invasion of the Federation.

The Shimitar was to eradicate all life on Earth and that would chock the Federation in a way it would completely cripple it, giving the Romulan Empire the advantage to launch a war.

Federation forces morale would be most likely very low and that is all the Romulans need to win a complete and utterlish dominate Federation space, while the Klingon Empire is still rebuilding from the last major war.

[Rhadamanthus]

I'd say the Rommies are in decline. IIRC at the end of the Dominion War when the Romulans are making noises about a counterattack on the Dominion, the Feds (the hardest hit in the war) are confident that they can balk any such move.

And if you recall, Nemesis implies that the Romulans have been kow-towing to the Federation, and the Romulan military backed Shinzon because he promised them a way to strike at the Feds. They were going to launch a full scale invasion after Shinzon decapitated the Federation by eradicating Earth.

On the issue of the Defiant's, they are powerful ships, but not that powerful that they can be considered a serious threat to a Warbird except in numbers. In "Paradise Lost" the Defiant is beaten to a draw by the steroid popping Lakota, where either ship could destroy the other in a final volley, and I seriously doubt even the souped up Excelsior could threaten a Warbird.

No argument on the Akira though, it is from every indication one of the most heavily armed ships in Starfleet. If you replaced her photons with Qtorps she could probably pimpslap a Sovvy

[NecronLord]

Another thing to consider is the fact the Reman Scimitar was depicted as being a major, major whup-ass ship even by Star Trek standards. It handily clobbered the two Valdore warbirds and was slicing and dicing the Enterprise with impunity until Picard rammed it. I don't think this signifies either class of ship as fragile, just the Scimitar is an extraordinarily tough opponent. (Although there has been a lot of speculation that the Valdore cruisers are faster than a standard Warbird, but less well armed and shielded, probably due to the Valdore's somewhat spindly appearance.)

Clearly, the Scimitar was designed to just absolutely overwhelm an adversary. Probably designed to engage multiple capital ship targets simultaneously. Based on the battle scenes I suspect one would need a five to one superiority at least to successfully engage it.

The Simitar was meant to be a WMD platform, not a battleship. It is slow and open to assualt when charging the main weapon.

[/quote]Actually it looks a lot more like a battleship modified to tack on a WMD.

Anyone else here getting tired of this nOOb invasion?

Stop trying to be one of the 'in' crowd, it's annoying.

Why are the Romulans declining? Because their ~16 year old ship of the line can be beaten by brand spanking new feddie ships? Frankly the federation, and thus the viewers have no idea what's going on in the RSE most of the time.

For all we know the brand new D'karikazan battleship class warbird is capable of taking on nine soveigns and reducing them to scrap in seconds and the senete was waiting for it to have gone into full production before deciding to attack their enemies in nemesis.

Abscence of evidence != Evidence of abscence.

[seanrobertson]

I'd say the Rommies are in decline. IIRC at the end of the Dominion War when the Romulans are making noises about a counterattack on the Dominion, the Feds (the hardest hit in the war) are confident that they can balk any such move.

I dunno that any Romulan actually said that. Ma Changeling did express some apprehension about the Klingons and Romulans attacking, but Odo noted that neither was in the shape to fight much longer.

(Also, I actually think the Klingons, not the Federation, were the hardest hit. That Sloan guy from Section 31 said that the Federation and Romulans were going to emerge as the two greatest powers of the Alpha/Beta Quadrants for a decade, at least.)

And if you recall, Nemesis implies that the Romulans have been kow-towing to the Federation, and the Romulan military backed Shinzon because he promised them a way to strike at the Feds. They were going to launch a full scale invasion after Shinzon decapitated the Federation by eradicating Earth.

That's true. The only thing I might bicker about is the kow-towing. From a militant Romulan's perspective, that might seem true, but it's probably an exaggeration.

On the issue of the Defiant's, they are powerful ships, but not that powerful that they can be considered a serious threat to a Warbird except in numbers. In "Paradise Lost" the Defiant is beaten to a draw by the steroid popping Lakota, where either ship could destroy the other in a final volley, and I seriously doubt even the souped up Excelsior could threaten a Warbird.

Fully agreed. Good point.

No argument on the Akira though, it is from every indication one of the most heavily armed ships in Starfleet. If you replaced her photons with Qtorps she could probably pimpslap a Sovvy

I like the Akira but I'm not so sure of that. They might indeed have formidable firepower, but we never see it used even when the situation calls for some serious whoop-ass. We also see lots of Akiras blown away during the War where some of the bigger ships (Galaxies) keep on trucking.

Taken alone, I hasten to add, that doesn't prove anything at all; but the fact that Akiras didn't totally replace GCSs and the Sovereign tells me that it's suffering from some comparative shortcoming. That's especially the case since Akiras should be much cheaper to build than the big, sprawling-ass GCS. Or Nebulas, for that matter.

[CaptainChewbacca]

The Klingons were at the front for the longest, and took heavy casualties until feds and rommies could adapt to the Breen energy disruptor.

Romulans need to change their tactics. They've been relying on cloak and fear for too long, and not on superior firepower. They're a crafty, stealthy race. Its not good to have that in a fight.

[seanrobertson]

I don't see this as too much of a problem.

Lets look at the ships involved.

First you have two Defiant Class ships. They have very heavy firepower and shields relative to their size. While their total output doesnt equal a war mod Galaxy their small size makes them more survivable. I can easily see a Defiant taking on a full size Warbird and winning.

Sorry, but...NAH.



I don't think Defiant could whip a Warbird. The way she struggled with Lakota, I have serious reservations that she could fight a Nebula or GCS very effectively, let alone the more powerful Romulan ship.

It'd simply take time for the D to inflict much damage on the Warbird, time the Warbird wouldn't give them if the D's shields are at all comparable to the E-D's in "Tin Man."

There's also the fact that THE Defiant seemed to be much more capable than other Defiants we've seen. "Valiant" fought an almost perfect stalemate with a Cardassian battlecruiser (presumably Keldon class?), or so its child captain tells Jake.

If a GCS's performance against somewhat lesser Galors is any indicator, a Warbird would tear through a CBC rather quickly.

Defiants are tough, but not a great a match for the big cruisers among the so-called Big Three.

Second you have the Akira a class which appears to be one of the most combat dedicated ships in Starfleet outside the Defiants. She carries a huge torp load and can dish massive damage if those are Q Torps.

Again, I'm skeptical of this. If they're so superior, why aren't Akiras steadily replacing GCSs on the front lines of engagements like Chin'Toka or the fight in "Sacrifice of Angels"?

The answer cannot be troops; TheDarkling told me that the Klingons were the only guys with ground troops at Chin'Toka, and how many troops could you possibly need to retake DS9 in "SoA"? Surely among some 600 odd ships, they could fill the station with gun fodder.

Personally I feel that those 3 ships would be more powerful in a fight than 3 standard class Galaxies and probably an even match for 3 war mod Galaxies.

Like I said, if that's true, the Federation must be really stupid to make GCSs their battleships in fleet engagements.

That wouldn't be a first for them, though

As for the Valdore Class Warbirds. Those ships certainly appeared to be Light Cruisers. They were probably sent for their speed to get their in time as opposed to their overall firepower.

Very probably, though I can't recall many light cruisers ever having faster warp drives than the bigger ships of Trek fleets.

Defiant was the one of the smallest ships around, and yet she was very slow. Excelsiors and their ilk are much lighter than GCSs, but they're slower.

Intrepids seem to be the only ships that really buck this trend. It's possible the Valdore is the Romulan answer to those ships: lightly armored and shielded, but fast and still capable of packing a decent punch. It does fill a niche the original Warbirds left wide open.

[seanrobertson]

The Klingons were at the front for the longest, and took heavy casualties until feds and rommies could adapt to the Breen energy disruptor.

True, that.

Romulans need to change their tactics. They've been relying on cloak and fear for too long, and not on superior firepower. They're a crafty, stealthy race. Its not good to have that in a fight.

I think the Romulans do actually have superior firepower, generally speaking, since only a handful of disruptor pulses could smack the dogshit out of the E-D's shields in "Tin Man."

But it is time for them to change their tactics, I agree. They need some variation in their fleet, beyond what the Valdore introduced.

[Rhadamanthus]

.
That's true. The only thing I might bicker about is the kow-towing. From a militant Romulan's perspective, that might seem true, but it's probably an exaggeration.

At the very least we can infer that the Romulans are playing nice with the Federation vice their old habit of "We'll go where we want when we want and do what we want."

I like the Akira but I'm not so sure of that. They might indeed have formidable firepower, but we never see it used even when the situation calls for some serious whoop-ass. We also see lots of Akiras blown away during the War where some of the bigger ships (Galaxies) keep on trucking.

Taken alone, I hasten to add, that doesn't prove anything at all; but the fact that Akiras didn't totally replace GCSs and the Sovereign tells me that it's suffering from some comparative shortcoming. That's especially the case since Akiras should be much cheaper to build than the big, sprawling-ass GCS. Or Nebulas, for that matter.

But as you pointed out the Akira is significantly smaller than either of the other ships, which means less in the way of diplomatic, scientific, and medical facilities, and capacity for Starfleet's absurd policy of putting civilians on starships. And size does contribute to survivability, punching a hole in the Akira is more likely to hit a critical system than on Galaxy.

But how often do we ever see Starfleet ships use their full potential? Look at the Sovereign combat scenes in First Contact and Insurrection, then look at what she can do in Nemesis. Refusal to use full potential is a recurring plot device in Trek :p We know the Akira has a minimum of 5 forward facing launchers, though from First Contact it looks like the four on the pod are standard while the one above the Deflector dish is burst fire. But if the Akira in MiaB had unleashed a full torpedo barrage and raped the Warbirds, it would have detracted from the Prommie.

[NecronLord]

Of course we never see the ships at their full potential. A Borg cube has hundreds of weapon emplacements, yet they only once fire more than one at a time...