Voyager ep "Dreadnaught"

Icehawk · Post by **Icehawk** » 2003-06-03 01:18am

The other day I saw the voyager ep "Dreadnaught" in which they come across a Cardassian super weapon. A large warp capable torpedo the size of a few shuttle crafts that got brought to the delta quadrant the same way Voyager was. It contained 1000kg of Matter and 1000kg of Antimatter IIRC.

Has this weapon ever been disgussed before in vs debates? What sort of explosive yield would it have with that much matter and anti-matter? Sorry but im terrible at math and am not sure how to do the calcs.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2003-06-03 01:46am

With matter/anit-matter calcs it is perfectly acceptable to assume 100% efficiency, so the energy released would be;

E = m*c^2

where m is mass in kg

and c is the speed of light 300,000km/s but in terms of m/s 300,000,000m/s

The reason that it is acceptable to assume 100% efficiency (even though nothing is 100%), anitmatter cannont survive in our 'universe' as it will anhialate any time it comes into contact with matter. So while not all of the warhead will explode at the same time, evetually all the anti-matter will.

Those who have a stronger grasp of Physics feel free to correct me.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2003-06-03 01:55am

So using that equation;

E = 1000*3E8^2
E = 9E19 J

To put into perspective, 1kg would give you 9E16 J, which is the equivalent of 9000 Saturn V rockets

GrandMasterTerwynn · Post by **GrandMasterTerwynn** » 2003-06-03 02:14am

Crown wrote:So using that equation;

E = 1000*3E8^2
E = 9E19 J

To put into perspective, 1kg would give you 9E16 J, which is the equivalent of 9000 Saturn V rockets

So at 100% efficiency, about 10 GT.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2003-06-03 02:34am

GrandMasterTerwynn wrote: So at 100% efficiency, about 10 GT.

Errr, I was getting 20 GT.... Are you using 1kt = 4.2E12 J like me?

SPOOFE · Post by **SPOOFE** » 2003-06-03 03:49am

He probably calculated for 1000 kg, rather than 2000 (1000 of matter + 1000 of antimatter).

Post by **Gandalf** » 2003-06-03 04:18am

If it's any relevance Tuvok said it could destroy a small moon.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-06-03 09:50am

Gandalf wrote:If it's any relevance Tuvok said it could destroy a small moon.

20GT could fragment a rocky asteroid in excess of 20km diameter, so it's not an unreasonable statement. It's a very powerful weapon (almost as powerful as a couple of Slave-1's seismic charges

)

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-06-03 09:57am

Darth Wong wrote:
Gandalf wrote:If it's any relevance Tuvok said it could destroy a small moon.
20GT could fragment a rocky asteroid in excess of 20km diameter, so it's not an unreasonable statement. It's a very powerful weapon (almost as powerful as a couple of Slave-1's seismic charges )

More then one, less then two. Wow! And its only the size of a Star Wars Corvette while having a single quantum torpedo tube for protection...

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-06-03 09:57am

Crown wrote:With matter/anit-matter calcs it is perfectly acceptable to assume 100% efficiency

Like hell it is.

You can use 100% efficiency to define an upper limit on the weapons yield; you assume that the actual yield is somewhat lower.

The upper limit would be...

E = mC^2
E = (2000 kg) * (300,000 m/s)^2
E = (1.8 * 10^20) J
E = 43 gigatons

Why am I getting a different number from everyone else?

trackball · Post by **trackball** » 2003-06-03 10:25am

Ted C wrote:Why am I getting a different number from everyone else?

Becuase you're using 2000kg and everyone else is using 1000kg. You are correct.

Admiral Johnason · Post by **Admiral Johnason** » 2003-06-03 02:00pm

Don't starships carry that much antimatter on patrol?

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-06-03 02:17pm

Admiral Johnason wrote:Don't starships carry that much antimatter on patrol?

I don't think the fuel supply has ever been specified.

The moon-moving effort in "Deja Q" -- assuming it would work as planned -- would have required at least a few thousand kilograms of antimatter fuel, though.

Admiral Johnason · Post by **Admiral Johnason** » 2003-06-03 02:19pm

Ted C wrote:
Admiral Johnason wrote:Don't starships carry that much antimatter on patrol?
I don't think the fuel supply has ever been specified.

The moon-moving effort in "Deja Q" -- assuming it would work as planned -- would have required at least a few thousand kilograms of antimatter fuel, though.

Are you sure, because in ST:TMP, Scotty says that the Enterprise is carrying enough antimatter to remove V'ger. I am under the impression that V'ger (the nebula form) was the size of a moon.

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-06-03 02:55pm

Admiral Johnason wrote:Are you sure, because in ST:TMP, Scotty says that the Enterprise is carrying enough antimatter to remove V'ger. I am under the impression that V'ger (the nebula form) was the size of a moon.

I don't recall any such line, and I don't think Scotty would make any such claim. The energy field surrounding Vejur was much larger than a moon; it's diameter was measured in astronomical units.

The vessel itself was considerably smaller, and it might have been feasible to destroy that with the ship's anti-matter fuel, but I don't recall anyone even suggesting it.

Patrick Ogaard · Post by **Patrick Ogaard** » 2003-06-03 02:55pm

Mike Wong's estimate, to be found on the main site, amounts to a supply of 480 tons of anti-deuterium tankage for a GCS (based on 3,000 cubic meters of tankage of right frosty anti-deuterium).

Given that kind of supply, the question is really why the Federation ships don't deploy some big missiles. The fleet trying to retake DS9 from the Dominion forces would certainly have been assisted considerably by a shoal of a few hundred high speed missiles, each carrying a payload of 1 ton of antimatter, ripping into the tightly packed Dominion lines.

A volley of a dozen or so ordinary photon torpedoes can usually kill the warships of the regular Star Trek powers, like the Federation, Romulans, Klingons, Cardassians, etc. Consider what missiles with almost 700 times the Tech Manual's 1.5kg torpedo payload of antimatter would do.

Obviously, those big missiles would have to be extremely fast and well shielded. They should, however, not be the lumbering monstrosity that was Dreadnought.

Admiral Johnason · Post by **Admiral Johnason** » 2003-06-03 03:23pm

Ted C wrote:
Admiral Johnason wrote:Are you sure, because in ST:TMP, Scotty says that the Enterprise is carrying enough antimatter to remove V'ger. I am under the impression that V'ger (the nebula form) was the size of a moon.
I don't recall any such line, and I don't think Scotty would make any such claim. The energy field surrounding Vejur was much larger than a moon; it's diameter was measured in astronomical units.

The vessel itself was considerably smaller, and it might have been feasible to destroy that with the ship's anti-matter fuel, but I don't recall anyone even suggesting it.

Girl: Whay has the Captian order self-distruct?

Scotty: Because he thinks, he hopes, that when we go, we'll take the intruder with us.

Girl: Will it work?

Scotty: When that much matter and antimatter come together, oh yes. We will indeed.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-06-03 03:32pm

Ted C wrote:I don't recall any such line, and I don't think Scotty would make any such claim. The energy field surrounding Vejur was much larger than a moon; it's diameter was measured in astronomical units.

The vessel itself was considerably smaller, and it might have been feasible to destroy that with the ship's anti-matter fuel, but I don't recall anyone even suggesting it.

I seriously doubt that Scotty meant that the explosion would encompass V'ger in its entirety. He was probably just referring to the main part at the center.

Jason von Evil · Post by **Jason von Evil** » 2003-06-03 04:14pm

The irony here is that the Cardies are the only ones to create a decent super weapon. It was said after all that the dreadnaughts were anti planet weapons.

Superman · Post by **Superman** » 2003-06-03 04:46pm

That makes sense... I am certain that all of the alpha quandrant empires could do it, but the Cardies are pretty much the only ones that WOULD do it. They are like the Nazis of the future.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-06-03 04:47pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Gandalf wrote:If it's any relevance Tuvok said it could destroy a small moon.
20GT could fragment a rocky asteroid in excess of 20km diameter, so it's not an unreasonable statement. It's a very powerful weapon (almost as powerful as a couple of Slave-1's seismic charges )

I thought Slave-1 seismic charges were like 1.2GT?

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2003-06-03 09:10pm

12 actually.

The Dreadnought was stupid. It was not a missle, it was a unmanned ship that could actually beat a Galor.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2003-06-03 09:16pm

Crown wrote:With matter/anit-matter calcs it is perfectly acceptable to assume 100% efficiency, so the energy released would be;

E = m*c^2

where m is mass in kg

and c is the speed of light 300,000km/s but in terms of m/s 300,000,000m/s

The reason that it is acceptable to assume 100% efficiency (even though nothing is 100%), anitmatter cannont survive in our 'universe' as it will anhialate any time it comes into contact with matter. So while not all of the warhead will explode at the same time, evetually all the anti-matter will.

Those who have a stronger grasp of Physics feel free to correct me.

Ahem.
LEARN THE SECOND LAW OF THERMODYNAMICS!!!

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-06-03 09:48pm

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:12 actually.

The Dreadnought was stupid. It was not a missle, it was a unmanned ship that could actually beat a Galor.

My bad. You were right, about 12GT.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2003-06-03 10:29pm

*Rubs ass*

Owww! I asked to get corrected and instead I get spanked

Oh well.

It's really weird using 2000kg instead of just 1000kg, but I see why you would. And as for the 100% thing, write that one off as a brain-fart...