Origin of MiddleEarth names

Post by **fgalkin** » 2002-09-12 06:27pm

Here's an exerpt from the Poetic (Elder) Edda. Some of the names look familiar?

[q]

Then went all the powers
to their judgement-seats,
the all-holy gods,
and thereon held council,
who should of the dwarfs
the race create,
from the sea-giant’s blood
and livid bones.

10. Then was Mötsognir
created greatest
of all the dwarfs,
and Durin second;
there in man’s likeness
they created many
dwarfs from the earth,
as Durin said.

11. Nýi and Nidi,
Nordri and Sudri,
Asutri and Vestri,
Althiöf, Dvalin
Nár and Náin,
Niping, Dáin,
Bivör, Bavör,
Bömbur, Nori,
An and Anar,
Ai, Miödvitnir,

12. Veig and Gandálf,
Vindálf, Thráin,
Thekk and Thorin,
Thror, Vitr, and Litr,
Núr and Nýrád,
Regin and Rádsvid.
Now of the dwarfs I have
rightly told.

13. Fili, Kili,
Fundin, Nali,
Hepti, Vili,
Hanar, Svior,
Billing, Bruni,
Bild, Búri,
Frár, Hornbori,
Fræg and Lóni,
Aurvang, Iari,
Eikinskialdi.[/q][/quote]

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2002-09-12 06:29pm

I don't think that JJR ever hid the fact that he derived much of teh MIddle earth lore from his love of ancient European myths and legends, particulalry Norse and such. It's interesting to see the source material before Tolkien started to do his magic.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-09-12 10:16pm

Tolkein was a scholar of Beowulf. He was also a very experienced linguis. Many of his names mean something in a language from which they were derived. For instance, Rohan, IIRC, means something like Horse in Welsh.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-09-12 10:17pm

D'oh. Linguist, not "linguis." Sorry.

Perinquus · Post by **Perinquus** » 2002-09-12 10:36pm

He also based the languages on real antecedents. Sindarin, for example, is based very heavily on Finnish, with a grammar derived from Latin.

He taught hmself most of the languages he studied (the real ones that is), which is a very difficult thing to do. He had a real gift for it. He was so fluent in Old English (Anglo-Saxon), that he would sometimes speak conversationally it with some of his colleagues at Oxford. He could converse in it as easily as you or I use modern English.

He may have derived the names and languages from real world antecedents, but he changed them a lot. He also devised writing systems - the Angerthas Daeron are based on Germanic Runic writing, and the Tengwar may just be entirely original. And nobody, but nobody ever fleshed out a fictional world in as much detail as Tolkien did, which is why his books read like an ancient mythological cycle instead of the product of a single mind. It's also why I think "The Lord of the Rings" and "The Silmarillion" will never be surpassed as works of heroic fantasy fiction.

Shadow WarChief · Post by **Shadow WarChief** » 2002-09-12 11:21pm

Master of Ossus wrote:Tolkein was a scholar of Beowulf.

Well considering that it's a wonder there was only one beowulf refferrence in the Hobbit..

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-09-13 12:29am

Shadow WarChief wrote:
Master of Ossus wrote:Tolkein was a scholar of Beowulf.
Well considering that it's a wonder there was only one beowulf refferrence in the Hobbit..

What are you talking about? The entire series can be seen as a giant allusion to Beowulf. Note the similarities in themes, incidents, and descriptions of characters, mannerisms, attire, and locations.

Tolkein was one of the world's leading scholars on Beowulf. He understood the thing better than, perhaps, anybody else, including people who studied his work. Even until his death he was a Beowulf scholar. How are you defining reference? An allusion is merely a reference to an earlier piece of work or incident intended to invoke the full connotations of that work or incident. The Lord of the Rings is quite literally full of allusions to the poem.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-09-13 12:40am

Actually, Tolkien was (I think) more of a scholar of literature before ~1300 CE in general (at Oxford, the English department was split into two groups: those who thought the most important literature was written before the 14th Century, and those who thought it was after the 14th Century).

Ossus, I'm quite the Tolkien fan, too (I have several editions of both The Hobbit and LOTR, as well as his official biography, The Silmarilion, Unfinished Tales, The Letters of JRR Tolkien, and the complete History of Middle-Earth. It's all absolutely fascinating.

Now if only they'd hurry up and reprint Pictures by JRR Tolkien.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-09-13 12:46am

Yes, he was also particularly well versed in the Bible and Le Morte D'Arthur--specifically the tales of Sir Gawain, Sir Lancelot, and Sir Gallahad. Beowulf was his favorite, however. He was considered THE authority on that story for some time. Incidentally, he also fought during WWI, and was a very good friend of CS Lewis, author of the Chronicles of Narnia.

Shadow WarChief · Post by **Shadow WarChief** » 2002-09-13 12:44pm

Well by referrence to Beowulf, I mean scene taken directly from.

Case in point: Bilbo goes into Smaug's cave, steals a golden cup, and Smaug destroys the nearby town

Beowulf version: Escaped slave goes into dragon's cave, steals a golden cup, and Dragon destroys the nearby town

Post by **fgalkin** » 2002-09-13 05:33pm

Hmm, but Beowulf is a Saxon poem. The names come from the Eddas. Could the vikings influence the saxons that much?

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2002-09-13 06:00pm

Considering the Vikings invaded and conquered most of England at one point? Probably.

Next of Kin · Post by **Next of Kin** » 2002-09-15 11:51am

Don't forget that Tolkien was also inspired by Wagner's Ring operas( Der Nibelung)...

Johonebesus · Post by **Johonebesus** » 2002-09-16 11:27pm

Tolkien's original idea was that there should be a primordial body of myth for the North Germanic peoples. His earliest stories had an Anglo-Saxon sailing to Avalon, meeting elves, and receiving the ancient lore lost by his ancestors. He likely deliberately borrowed names from many sources, imagining the sources as preserving fragments of a lost tradition. In fact, it has been proposed that the verses you quoted were the inspiration for the quest in the Hobbit. The name Gandalf contains an element meaning elf, so he should have been an elf, or like an elf, but then why would he be associated with dwarves? So Tolkien imagined an elf-like character who was tangled in an adventure with dwarves.

Could the vikings influence the saxons that much?

More like they were very closely related, originally coming from the same group, and possessing very similar languages and cultures. The biggest difference between the Saxons of the ninth and tenth centuries and the Vikings was that the Saxons were nominally Christian by that point. The old home of the Saxons was close to Denmark, and the Jutes came from Juteland, in Denmark. Danes had Thor and Oðin, Saxons had Thunder and Woden. It wasn't until William that England started looking south towards the Continent rather than north towards Scandinavia.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-09-16 11:33pm

All of the names in Middle Earth have some meaning in some language. Others are even more clever, having meaning in several languages (Saruman), including both standard languages from here on Earth, and ones from Middle Earth.