Executor bridge windows vs. A-Wing Fighter

Iceberg · Post by **Iceberg** » 2003-06-04 01:38am

We all know the scene. The common Trekkie derision.

I did a bit of math tonight, after watching the death of Executor in Return of the Jedi:

1: The A-Wing which killed Executor was first spotted roughly four kilometers forward of her final resting place, and traveled the intervening distance in approximately one second. This gives it a ballistic velocity of 4,000 m/s.

2: The transparisteel viewport of Executor's bridge did, as we all know, give way, but in the process, it slowed the A-Wing from 4,000 m/s to about 10 m/s (really about 6 m/s or so, but I'm rounding up to (A) be conservative and (B) make the math easier).

3: The mass of the A-Wing is, according to the only source I could find (an old WEG SWRPG supplement), 10 tons.

Delta V: 3,990 m/s
Delta T: 0.042 s (the smallest measurable time increment for film analysis)
A: 9.5e4 m/s^2

KE(immediately before impact) = 1/2MV^2
= .5 * 10,000 * (4,000)^2
= 5,000 * 16,000,000
= 80,000,000,000 joules
KE(immediately after breaking the window)
= .5 * 10,000 * (10)^2
= 5,000 * 100
= 500,000 joules

So the bridge window of Executor absorbed 79,000,500,000 joules (or 19.08 kilotons) before it broke, admitting the now-exploding A-Wing to the bridge and killing all of the soft, unarmored humans inside. It should be noted that this is a low-end estimate, as it does not consider the unknown energy content of the A-Wing's engine core and weapons cooking off.

Technically, this is admissible as an EXTREME low-end estimate for SW armor performance, however in practice it would have as much validity as flying an F-16A armed with Sidewinder, AMRAAM and Maverick missiles into the bridge of the USS Iowa and using that to determine her armor's performance against 16" shells.

Well, what do you think, Sirs? Any grievous errors in my math?

(EDIT: Oops. Dropped three orders of magnitude by mistake in a couple of my numbers. Now fixed)

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-06-04 01:41am

Jesus Christ.

That window could probably take some fighter laser fire without failure.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-06-04 02:01am

Oh my God!

Damn, that's a lot for just a window...

Mitth`raw`nuruodo · Post by **Mitth`raw`nuruodo** » 2003-06-04 02:05am

SHows how much the rest of the ship could take, if a damn window can do that... (i seem to remember somewhere that transparinsteel is supposed to be like the other kinds of metals used, just transparent.... anyone else see this quote?)

Post by **Gandalf** » 2003-06-04 03:52am

They probably made them that tough after some Stormies were playing baseball and accidentaly exposed the bridge to the vacuum of space.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-06-04 04:19am

How do we know that the A-Wing was 4km forward of the collision point?

Iceberg · Post by **Iceberg** » 2003-06-04 07:55am

Vympel wrote:How do we know that the A-Wing was 4km forward of the collision point?

4 km is a rough guesstimate. I was watching the movie with other people, so I didn't have the luxury of going through the scene in stop-motion and doing a precise analysis, but the A-Wing appeared to be about 2-3 miles (3.2-4.8 km) from the bridge when we see it flinging upward toward the tower. 4 km is as good a compromise figure as any in that range.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-06-04 08:01am

Iceberg wrote:
Vympel wrote:How do we know that the A-Wing was 4km forward of the collision point?
4 km is a rough guesstimate. I was watching the movie with other people, so I didn't have the luxury of going through the scene in stop-motion and doing a precise analysis, but the A-Wing appeared to be about 2-3 miles (3.2-4.8 km) from the bridge when we see it flinging upward toward the tower. 4 km is as good a compromise figure as any in that range.

Well it's possible to estimate, Evil S'tan is good at this, try and ask him.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-06-04 08:04am

Also, I can see that the beams around the windows held, they didn't even bend from the impact.

Tribun · Post by **Tribun** » 2003-06-04 09:16am

Also, I can see that the beams around the windows held, they didn't even bend from the impact

That again shows the superior armor of imperial ships.

Iceberg · Post by **Iceberg** » 2003-06-04 09:22am

"79,000,500,000" in my original numbers should have been 79,999,500,000.

Admiral Johnason · Post by **Admiral Johnason** » 2003-06-04 11:46am

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Jesus Christ.

That window could probably take some fighter laser fire without failure.

In Rouge Squadron II, I takes forever to shoot through the bridge windows with blasters. I t doesn't really count, but it seemed revelent.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2003-06-04 12:25pm

Your damned right Rogue Squadron 2 doesn't count.
In fact, never mention it again.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-06-04 01:25pm

consequences wrote:Your damned right Rogue Squadron 2 doesn't count.
In fact, never mention it again.

Well, it's pretty much useless as any sort of reference considering it changes the events of the films.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2003-06-04 01:50pm

"pretty much useless?" I once ripplefired 6 Proton torps into an AT-ATs ass, to no effect.

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2003-06-04 02:37pm

Now that's a well-built ship.

I would suggest posting this on SB... I want to see Scooter's reaction to it.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-06-04 02:51pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Jesus Christ.

That window could probably take some fighter laser fire without failure.

And that just so happens to be supported by EU novels.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-06-04 03:03pm

DPDarkPrimus wrote:Now that's a well-built ship.

I would suggest posting this on SB... I want to see Scooter's reaction to it.

You masochist!

I know exactly what he'll do. Nitpick the distance estimate. Insist that SW fighters can't travel that fast. Etc.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-06-04 03:09pm

Darth Servo wrote:
DPDarkPrimus wrote:Now that's a well-built ship.

I would suggest posting this on SB... I want to see Scooter's reaction to it.
You masochist!

I know exactly what he'll do. Nitpick the distance estimate. Insist that SW fighters can't travel that fast. Etc.

Nah...you'll have Darkstar groupies first screaming Warsie troll...and prove it with only CANON!!!!(disregarding where you've taken it from), then a 20 page disertation of Darkstar saying you don't have your eyes screwed on right.

I say do it just to see if you can nail some more into his coffin(thoguh reading some of the more rabid people...it's getting damn funnier)

Ignorant_Boy · Post by **Ignorant_Boy** » 2003-06-04 03:10pm

I was wondering how useful the number which Iceberg came up with is though (not to insult your work in any way Iceberg). According to my understanding, all it says is that the Executor's bridge windows cannot take 14-something kT. This doesn't really show how much the windows can take however. If I ram a car through my living room window does that mean the window can stand up to anything less than the energy of my car?

Warlord Zsinj · Post by **Warlord Zsinj** » 2003-06-04 03:11pm

Now how could the people aboard the Executor lose control by loosing the bridge? Don't they have some sort of back up system. Why didn't Admiral Ackbar celebrate like the rest of the other people aboard Home One when the Executor got hit?

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2003-06-04 03:34pm

cuz Ackbar is a professional, who celebrates after the battle. It takes time to transfer primary control, and the dying spasm of the helmsman could easily have sent the Executor into its death dive before anyone else could recognise what was happening and abort.

Iceberg · Post by **Iceberg** » 2003-06-04 03:45pm

Ignorant_Boy wrote:I was wondering how useful the number which Iceberg came up with is though (not to insult your work in any way Iceberg). According to my understanding, all it says is that the Executor's bridge windows cannot take 14-something kT. This doesn't really show how much the windows can take however. If I ram a car through my living room window does that mean the window can stand up to anything less than the energy of my car?

We can tell how much energy the window took before it broke by how much it decelerated the A-Wing, and how quickly: from 4,000 m/s to about 10 m/s in the span of a single frame of film (0.042 seconds).

KE(A-Wing before) - KE(A-Wing after) = KE used to do work on the window.

Also, as I said, this is actually a conservative number, because it doesn't include the energy released by various energetic components of the A-Wing cooking off (concussion missiles, tibanna gas for the lasers, the engines, the power core, the hyperdrive, for examples), which might increase the result by as much as an order of magnitude.

Iceberg · Post by **Iceberg** » 2003-06-04 03:48pm

consequences wrote:cuz Ackbar is a professional, who celebrates after the battle. It takes time to transfer primary control, and the dying spasm of the helmsman could easily have sent the Executor into its death dive before anyone else could recognise what was happening and abort.

Oddly, there doesn't appear to be a recognizable helm in the bridge of the ISD (it must be in the crew pit).

If not for the fact that it was seen in both an ISD and an SSD, I'd be willing to suggest that the chamber we saw on Executor was in fact the flag bridge and not the navigating bridge.

Of course, that would require a different explanation for Executor's death dive...

Axis Kast · Post by **Axis Kast** » 2003-06-04 03:50pm

I do believe that the "Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels" by Bill Smith argues that Arvil Crynid did indeed slam his A-Wing into the Executor bridge on purpose - if that changes anything, which I'm assuming it does not.