camp xray

[Vympel]

Camp Xray, hmmm, its a fuzzy grey area type thing. I see it more of the POW's there do not have the right to lawyers. They are being held until after the war is over, and from everything I have read (even the Amesty International report) are being treated accordingly. There might be instances like Towlie's article eludes to, but they are alive, feed, and given medical care. They are not there awaiting trial, they are there awaiting the end of the war. When the war is over, those who are deemed to be war criminals will probably go to trial (military).

This is not a criminal court issue, it is a war issue and a POW (really a unlawful combantent) issue.

That being said, it does have its problems too. I know (or suppose) that alot of those fuckers are actualy somewhat innocent, and the goverment should know that by now. Some of those people should have been released and released quite publicly. As for civil rights abuse, bring on the evidence and not political agenda. If it does happen, I advocate the prosecution of the perpratrator to the fullest extent of the law.

By war, do you mean the war in Afghanistan? They'll be waiting quite a while, the tight-asses won't give Karzai any damn money and the international force won't take a step outside the capital- dammit where's the balls?

[Stormbringer]

By war, do you mean the war in Afghanistan? They'll be waiting quite a while, the tight-asses won't give Karzai any damn money and the international force won't take a step outside the capital- dammit where's the balls?

We could give Karzai all the money he wants and all the soldiers he wants with out stopping the sorta-war in Afghanistan. The problem is it's just a shit hole. The Afghans are cheerfully killing each other and have been for a long time. A little money won't change that.

And why should we step into a buzz saw like that? As the Soviets proved, there is no way we could stamp out resistance and even trying would ruin any gains we had made. Trying would just give fodder the anti-US psychopaths already there.

[Knife]

By war, do you mean the war in Afghanistan? They'll be waiting quite a while, the tight-asses won't give Karzai any damn money and the international force won't take a step outside the capital- dammit where's the balls?

Yes and no. They were captured durring the was against the Taliban but I am sure if the Adminstration desires, they can extend that to the war on terror. Personally, I would wish it resoved (Camp X-Ray) when we are done (one way or another) in Afganistan.

And I think there is much truth in the rest of your statement. We seem to kick ass on the military part but our follow up seems to suck ass in both Afganistan and Iraq. We seem able to shurk some peoples opinions and do the military part yet succumb to those same people when it comes to locking down the conquered/liberated country afterwards. Where are the balls, indeed.

[Vympel]

And why should we step into a buzz saw like that? As the Soviets proved, there is no way we could stamp out resistance and even trying would ruin any gains we had made. Trying would just give fodder the anti-US psychopaths already there.

Well, there are some differences between the Soviet campaign and today.

Firstly, the Mujhadeen enjoyed superpower support (the US) and an open border with Pakistan through which aid could freely flow (though the oft-repeated 'Stinger missiles shot down hundreds of Soviet helicopters is pure exaggeration, American aid was more important in other ways). Sure, the border with Pakistan is still open, but the superpower support isn't.

Second, the Mujhadeen formed a more united front against Soviet resistance than the unruly warlords/ tribes/ Taliban/ Al-Qaeda against Karzai's government and the US forces/ international force backing him up.

Of course, whether these differences have any meaning is a different story.

But, the US and other international forces are involved. The situation where Karzai is defended by US special forces an Kabul guarded by an international army can't continue.

[Sea Skimmer]

By war, do you mean the war in Afghanistan? They'll be waiting quite a while, the tight-asses won't give Karzai any damn money and the international force won't take a step outside the capital- dammit where's the balls?

The Euros might not leave the capital but US forces sure as hell do.

[RedImperator]

Thie following article isn't about camp X-ray but it weighs in on all the civil rights arguments. A lot of you are saying "I don't give a shit about John Q. Terrorist," which is both misleading and sickening because putting aside the fact whether they are POWs or not, it assumes 100% of people being detained are terrorists. Now here's some snippets of what I read in the newspaper this morning:

"U.S. ADMITS FOREIGN 'DETAINEES' INNOCENT"

Foreigners rounded up in the aftermatch of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks spent months in jail without knowing why, were abused physically and verbally and denied access to their lawyers.
According to a U.S. internal government report, a study of 672 so-called "detainees" who were of special interest to the FBI found they were subjected to physical and verbal abuse, were housed in cells lit by two bright light bulbs 24 hours per day, were denied legal counsel and would not be released under government orders until they were cleared of any terrorist connection."

"The study found a number of prisoners were "slammed" against the wall, away from the prying eyes of surveillance cameras, one had his fingers bent back until it touched his wrist, another was dragged along the prison floor by his handcuffs and many reported cuffs were on so tight they have scars remaining to this day.
They were also told by guards that they were going to die in the facility, would be held for 20-25 years and taunted as 'bin Laden junior.'
Also in Fine's reports was anecdotal examples of the pretexts that led to the arrests. In one case, a man who paid for a purchase shortly before Sept. 11 with an aviation-related credit card and, in idle conversation, said he'd like to learn to fly an airplane, was arrested after the attacks based on a tip with the other person in the conversation.
Another was arrests and detained based on a "tip" from a citizen who reported a grocery store run by "Middle Eastern men" had closed the day after the attacks, even though it was usually open 24/7."

All for freedom and democracy, no doubt. So do you care about the civil rights of these people? Or do only non-muslims get civil rights?

Except this is a discussion about the legality/morality of Camp X-Ray full of people captured in a shooting war in Afghanistan, and this article is talking about civil rights abuses committed against people who had a legal right to be in the United States (citizens or resident aliens). The actions taken by the government against resident aliens in the wake of Sept. 11 are indefensible and are among the many reasons I want to see Ashcroft fired. My feelings on that are quite different from those on the situation at Guantanamo.

[NapoleonGH]

To red, and durran, but durran especially. IM saying that the attitude of not caring because they are suspects of some act (btw none of them are actually terrorists, they are accomplices to terrorism or potential terrorists anyway, do recall that the real terrorists died in the planes) that you consider horrible (and i concur mind you) means that you are not willing to defend their rights just as much as John Q. Taxpayer when he disappears in the middle of the night and is held without trial because he read the wrong book. Freedom and Justice dont work when you are willing to allow them both to be forgotten simply because you oppose the suspected crime that these suspected and thus far legally innocent men may have been willing and undergoing training to committ.

Justice must be BLIND, as to must its supporters and defenders. Hell i really personally could care less if every man guilty of supporting any form of murder, be it 1 man or 3000, rots, but the fact is none of them are proven guilty yet, and the innocent could very well be suffering, and we have laws that say what proper humane treatment for all criminals is, be they domestic civilians, or POWs.

[Joe]

No thanks. Thank god that I don't live in the US.

Good. Your presence is not desired here.

Napoleon, how many times do I have to spell it out for you. I don't care. I don't care about a bunch of assholes who think it is their God-given right to put my mom and sister in a burqa and beat them savagely for disobedience. I don't care about a bunch of assholes who want to force me to pray five times a day. I just don't care. Maybe what is going on in Camp Xray is illegal for non al-Qaeda prisoners, but I see no reason to make a fuss about the civil rights of individuals who have no real concept of civil rights to begin with.

[Hamel]

Napoleon, how many times do I have to spell it out for you. I don't care. I don't care about a bunch of assholes who think it is their God-given right to put my mom and sister in a burqa and beat them savagely for disobedience. I don't care about a bunch of assholes who want to force me to pray five times a day. I just don't care. Maybe what is going on in Camp Xray is illegal for non al-Qaeda prisoners, but I see no reason to make a fuss about the civil rights of individuals who have no real concept of civil rights to begin with.

Thanks for asserting your right to be an asshole

If the US had nothing to hide, they'd give them a fair trial

[NapoleonGH]

Durran, how many times DO I need to tell you that that makes you not only unamerican but in complete opposition to justice and freedom and every basic concept that a free government must rest on?

Im saying that the fact that you dont care demonstrates just how much you are in complete opposition to those concepts that we call justice and freedom and liberty. These concepts must be blind and must apply to all equally, or else they are meaningless and useless, by "not caring" about the utter lack of justice and rule of law, you are supporting exactly what this nation supposedly was created to oppose, justice for the few, freedom for the few, and oppression for the many.

The fact that people who share the fews you have stated in this thread call themselves "patriots" and people like me "traitors" or "terrorist sympathizers" is not only absurd, but is profoundly sad and pathetic.

[Stormbringer]

Well, there are some differences between the Soviet campaign and today.

Firstly, the Mujhadeen enjoyed superpower support (the US) and an open border with Pakistan through which aid could freely flow (though the oft-repeated 'Stinger missiles shot down hundreds of Soviet helicopters is pure exaggeration, American aid was more important in other ways). Sure, the border with Pakistan is still open, but the superpower support isn't.

Second, the Mujhadeen formed a more united front against Soviet resistance than the unruly warlords/ tribes/ Taliban/ Al-Qaeda against Karzai's government and the US forces/ international force backing him up.

Of course, whether these differences have any meaning is a different story.

In all likelyhood, little difference. The Afghans have enough small arms type weapons to be able to wreack havoc, super power backing or not. The sheer number of weapons floating around makes the whole country very dangerous. True heavier force might be immune but the fact is soldiers will still be very vulnerable.

The thing that united them was a forgien invader. If we go from ally to invader you'd better believe they'll unite enough to hurt us. That'll get them to unite. And face it, the West is only marginally more popular than the Taliban. If we push it, they might well decide they weren't so bad.

And lets face it, the US might do better but the public would never stand for even a fraction of the casualties the Soviets suffered.

But, the US and other international forces are involved. The situation where Karzai is defended by US special forces an Kabul guarded by an international army can't continue.

No, it can't. The thing is we need to build a real nation and they natives are dead set against it. What we have to do is help Karzai do that rather than trying to force it on them because that'd only ruin what we have done.

[Joe]

Unamerican, huh? Better be careful with that sort of labeling, god knows you and your like go into a frenized rage anytime anyone suggests that amidst your ranting and raving against everything America does that you may not really like this country all that much. It's only fair that you abstain from it as well.

And for the last time, at no point have I suggested that what is going on with regards to non al-Qaeda prisoners at Xray is in fact, legal. I just don't care about the fact that they are suffering.

I have absolutely no concern with the suffering of bad, disgusting people. Now show me a college kid who has his life ruined by a marijuana charge, then you'll arouse my ire.

[Hamel]

Unamerican, huh? Better be careful with that sort of labeling, god knows you and your like (people that give a shit about others) go into a frenized rage anytime anyone suggests that amidst your ranting and raving (about the rights of others being violated) against everything America does (that's either blatantly illegal or immoral) that you may not really like this country all that much. It's only fair that you abstain from it as well (I saw a liberal walk an old lady across the street today. Sorry, acts of compassion just piss me off ) .

Is that you, Axis?

And for the last time, at no point have I suggested that what is going on with regards to non al-Qaeda prisoners at Xray is in fact, legal. I just don't care about the fact that they are suffering.

Classic. Bookmarked.

I have absolutely no concern with the suffering of bad, disgusting people (after all, they're not one of us). Now show me a college kid who has his life ruined by a marijuana charge, then you'll arouse my ire.

Your opinion of how disgusting they are doesn't change the fact that the US pissed away its moral high ground long ago.

[Joe]

Fine, bookmark it and use it later on completely out of context. Also note that for the record, I have never condoned what is going on with regards to non al-Qaeda combatants at Xray.

[Hamel]

Fine, bookmark it and use it later on completely out of context.

Quite impossible to take it out of context. It's here for everyone to read. In. Plain. English.

Also note that for the record, I have never condoned what is going on with regards to non al-Qaeda combatants at Xray.

al-Qaeda or not, they deserve a fair trial. If we can give buttmonkeys like McVeigh a trial, surely we can give one to these people.

[Axis Kast]

btw none of them are actually terrorists, they are accomplices to terrorism or potential terrorists anyway, do recall that the real terrorists died in the planes

At what part of the equation did you remove planning and foot-work (the of securing passports, remote direction, etc.)? Many terrorists are never involved in suicide attacks.

The fact that people who share the fews you have stated in this thread call themselves "patriots" and people like me "traitors" or "terrorist sympathizers" is not only absurd, but is profoundly sad and pathetic.

This nation was founded by an elitist group of plantation owners and small merchants looking to shuck the regulatory power of British government. While its ordaining documents bear homage to John Locke and high-minded notions of Deism, never for a moment let is escape you that barely thirty-three percent of so-called “Americans” were very much in sympathy with the movement. In fact, an equal if not larger number vigorously opposed it while the remainder pronounced themselves disinterested and took on no active allegiance (meaning, for all intents and purposes, that they remained under Crown control). Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, and others promulgated a rich man’s nation in which they could own as chattel property black African men, women, and children. They envisioned a nation populated exclusively by English, French, or Dutch settlers with sprawling estates, a half-dozen or more slaves, and little interest in anything greater than municipal government. No matter what they professed, it was embryonic anarchy. That didn’t change until 1830, when the municipal outlook became a regional outlook. And again, these stereotypes pervaded to 1865 when it was capitalism (off the heels of our industrial revolution here in the ‘States), expansionism, and nationalism that held the day. It’s to that image that we now pay homage. Not that we left our own shores to 1898.

Now I don’t call you “traitor,” although I do find you to be apologetic for anti-American sentiments or activities, Napoleon. You are correct in saying that the general stereotype of the “good American” is one who loves freedom and democracy for all peoples and at any cost. But that’s all it is. A stereotype. What we actually represent is self-determination, a rather more selfish and less liberally enlightened version of the above. Not that I don’t love my nation. I’m just well aware of its sordid past and the vulnerability of any argument claiming it’s got over-arching, high-minded values to proclaim to everyone else. Let's be very clear. I don't believe this country or anybody in it has a "right" to anything. But if you ask me if I'd advocate doing something that puts it on top? Well, that's absolutely fine. I don't think I "deserve" anything special, but Im not adverse to recieving or going out and claiming it either.

Is that you, Axis?

When did I call you anti-American? Acts of compassion have their time and place, though I warn those who practice them too freely on a geopolitical level. You want to talk about people who give a shit about others? Then let's talk about a website without a "Hall of Shame" where you can, like mindless goons and pompous idiots, insult anybody with whom the majority - or only the powerful - disagree?

[Vympel]

You want to talk about people who give a shit about others? Then let's talk about a website without a "Hall of Shame" where you can, like mindless goons and pompous idiots, insult anybody with whom the majority - or only the powerful - disagree?

Yeah, disagreements with white supremacists, pedophiles, and trolls who come here to invade- real moral equivalence you established there, Mr. I Support State Terrorism (here's a bulletin, you loony facsist prick, there is no such thing as 'immoral on the geopolitical level' Youre just immoral, period). Pathetic- as if insulting someone holds a candle to believing that pedophilia is justifiable, or wishing death and misery on other people who don't have the privelege of being Americans- provided you can get away it.

If you don't like the insults, fuck off, no one will miss you that's for certain.

[BoredShirtless]

If you don't like the insults, fuck off, no one will miss you that's for certain.

I don't watch people work in real life, but watching you shoveling shit off sd.net is very entertaining.

So hang around Axis, you amuse me.

[Justin]

I agree with Axis. Their terrorists? Fine. Give them a fair trial, convict them if found guilty, then execute them. Dead sand snakes don't bite anybody. But if you can't convict them, then let them go. And no 3rd degree either. Sodium pentothal I might agree with. That's painless. Hell, that's better than painless, it has you flying higher than a kite. It makes you want to talk and not give a damm about what you talk about. I'm not so sure we should give them the American version of civil rights (and the meaning of civil rights differs all over the globe) since their not Americans. And what if they are found not guilty? We could alwayse send them back to Afghanistahn to let their goverment deal with them.

[Justin]

Wow Vympel, that was actually profound (for you). You mean you DON'T have a position on Camp-Xray? I find that hard to believe considering the name of the thread and the fact that you chose to participate in the conversation. But we'll get back to that later. This ones for Axis.

[/quote] This nation was founded by an elitist group of plantation owners and small merchants looking to shuck the regulatory power of British government. [/quote]

Partially right. That "elitist group of plantation owners" should say "that elitist group of aristocrats". Ever wonder who settled the Old South? Georgia, Carolina, Virginia? That society did not spring up overnight. It had it's roots in England. The main group who settled there were the Cavaliers, the royalist losers of the English civil war. All of whom were either noble officers or ambitious common soldiers who had worked their way up the ranks. All of whom were used to having large, agriculture-based estates back in England, and having a choice between persecution in England and exile, they chose the nearest English haven availbille, in North America where the climate was warm and land was either cheap or even free. In fact change the word slave to peasant and tell me what you see. I wrote a college research paper saying that Southern slavery was really the last vestige of medevial society left in the European world, although the slaves were treated more as serfs than peasents.

[Vympel]

Wow Vympel, that was actually profound (for you). You mean you DON'T have a position on Camp-Xray? I find that hard to believe considering the name of the thread and the fact that you chose to participate in the conversation. But we'll get back to that later. This ones for Axis.

Read. So next time, you won't look like such a moron when you post, you waste of bandwith- if you're wondering where your pointless bullshit went, it went to the HoS.

[Colonel Olrik]

I just want to warn this thread is getting really close to the HOS. Stop with the fucking personal attacks, people. They can only end in fire.

[Colonel Olrik]

Alright, even better. I must have hit pretty close to the mark with that juvenile remark, since you deleted the post, huh? I guess you don't like it when an adult points out how immature your acting. If you can't take the flames, stay out of the furnace, you half-witt. Wait a second, Half-witt?
That's too generous. Let's try a one quarter-wit.

He didn't delete it. He sent it to the HOS. Continue the discussion there, if you want, and shut the fuck up here, or this will have the same destiny.

edit: Vympel has sent it already, but I'll keep this posted in case you're too dense to understand the concept of moving hijacked threads to the HOS.

edit 2: Are you retarded, or something? Take it to the HOS ands stop hijacking this thread or you'll regret it.

[Axis Kast]

Yeah, disagreements with white supremacists, pedophiles, and trolls who come here to invade- real moral equivalence you established there, Mr. I Support State Terrorism (here's a bulletin, you loony facsist prick, there is no such thing as 'immoral on the geopolitical level' Youre just immoral, period).

Here’s a bulletin you pompous prick: there is such a thing as amoral on the geopolitical level. It’s called a Machiavellian outlook. Just because you cannot personally stomach it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Remember Daniel Day Lewis’ character in Gangs of New York? Well here’s a quote for you: I don’t give a flying fuck about your moral conundrums.

Partially right. That "elitist group of plantation owners" should say "that elitist group of aristocrats". Ever wonder who settled the Old South? Georgia, Carolina, Virginia? That society did not spring up overnight. It had it's roots in England. The main group who settled there were the Cavaliers, the royalist losers of the English civil war. All of whom were either noble officers or ambitious common soldiers who had worked their way up the ranks. All of whom were used to having large, agriculture-based estates back in England, and having a choice between persecution in England and exile, they chose the nearest English haven availbille, in North America where the climate was warm and land was either cheap or even free. In fact change the word slave to peasant and tell me what you see. I wrote a college research paper saying that Southern slavery was really the last vestige of medevial society left in the European world, although the slaves were treated more as serfs than peasents.

Your analysis doesn’t change the fact of the matter: “Americans” as they existed prior to 1830 were virtually antithetical to the ideals of even a half-century later. Most were not even a willing party to “their own” Revolution.

edit 2: Are you retarded, or something? Take it to the HOS ands stop hijacking this thread or you'll regret it.

We’ll “regret it?” Step in and say something about Vympel once in a while. The guy slings more shit at people he doesn’t like behind the Moderator’s shield than anybody I’ve ever encountered.


In reference to Camp X-Ray, I repeat: because few in Geneva ever envisioned non-state organizations playing an active role during wartime other than mercenary fighters (which were inevitably subsumed into the command structure of the enemy army in question) or national partisans (which were considered “unofficial combatants,” and sometimes shot as spies or variously held as prisoners-of-war), the American facility at Guantanamo Bay is indeed illegal. That’s in fact partially why it’s located on Cuban soil in the first place. I however have no problems making allowance for the actual presence or existence of such a place given that it serves to deter, detain, and extract information from my enemies.

… By the way, does anybody know the actual rights allotted to unofficial combatant such as partisans by the Geneva Convention?

[Vympel]

Here’s a bulletin you pompous prick: there is such a thing as amoral on the geopolitical level. It’s called a Machiavellian outlook. Just because you cannot personally stomach it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Remember Daniel Day Lewis’ character in Gangs of New York? Well here’s a quote for you: I don’t give a flying fuck about your moral conundrums.

No actually, it's just called hair-splitting bullshit. What makes you any different from a white supremacist, you slimy worm? That you think the citizen's of other nation's don't deserve basic human rights instead of just white people?

We’ll “regret it?” Step in and say something about Vympel once in a while. The guy slings more shit at people he doesn’t like behind the Moderator’s shield than anybody I’ve ever encountered.

Anyone's allowed to fling shit on this board, you stupid fuck, not just Moderator's- as long as it's not hijacking bullshit. Why don't you read the Announcements board, dumbass. *You* went off into a tangent about the HoS, not I.