Interphasic Torpedoes

[Illuminatus Primus]

Aren't you a filthy troll?

[Illuminatus Primus]

Aren't you a filthy troll?

Excuse me if I've confused you with some infiltrator.

[Darth Wong]

Then how do they work?

I already explained that. Big fucking warheads.

Then why was Voyager able to refit to them so easily? It's not as if future-Janeway could just pop onto the ship, say "make your warheads more powerful", and they just say "wow, what a great idea, we never thought of that before! Let's do it!"

They obviously employ some sort of trick. Also note that after Voyager returned to Earth and brought home the secret of transphasic torpedoes, they did not start suddenly using them everywhere. Where are the uber-torpedoes in Nemesis (which occurs well after Voyager returned home, since Janeway is already an Admiral) that can annihilate a Borg cube with a couple of hits through raw firepower (presumably equal to dozens of ships firing at once, if STFC is to be taken as an example of Borg cube resilience), and would presumably wipe out Romulan ships effortlessly?

[Ender]

I know, hence why I asked the question, and hence why I want proof.

There are a couple of times in DS9 onward where the torp didn't destroy something it should have if it was a nondirected torp. Notably , one Voayage episode (I forget the name, Poe probably knows) a torp went off right outside a window yet no damage was directed towards the ship

[GeeYouEye]

Aren't you a filthy troll?

Are you talking to me?

[GeeYouEye]

(Oi. That'll show me to hit submit several hours after typing a response)

Aren't you a filthy troll?

Excuse me if I've confused you with some infiltrator.

Assuming you're talking to me, since no one posted in between:

1. No.
2. Given that I'm posting this, you should be able to answer your own question.

[Illuminatus Primus]

(Oi. That'll show me to hit submit several hours after typing a response)

Aren't you a filthy troll?

Excuse me if I've confused you with some infiltrator.

Assuming you're talking to me, since no one posted in between:

1. No.
2. Given that I'm posting this, you should be able to answer your own question.

Sorry. Brainfart.

[SirNitram]

(Oi. That'll show me to hit submit several hours after typing a response)

Aren't you a filthy troll?

Excuse me if I've confused you with some infiltrator.

Assuming you're talking to me, since no one posted in between:

1. No.
2. Given that I'm posting this, you should be able to answer your own question.

I'm having trouble believing this from someone who attacked me, claiming that energy has no mass.

[GeeYouEye]

I'm having trouble believing this from someone who attacked me, claiming that energy has no mass.

That wasn't my argument. My argument was that light has no mass, proved by the fact that it travels at c. Anything with mass gains mass exponentially --> infinity as it approaches c. So either light has infinite mass (ridiculous) or it has no mass.

[Patrick Ogaard]

There's always the option of interpreting transphasic torpedoes as being relatively conventional Trek torpedo warheads (whether photon or quantum) with some penetration aids added on.

My old standby idea is that of shield slipping or phasing. That is, if Star Trek deflector shields are frequency based, as they are, then one deflector shield in contact with another could potentially cancel out the other on a local level. It may actually be a built in safety feature of many deflector shield systems.

By rights, a deflector shield collision should be almost as bad for two starships as a direct collision between the vessels. All that momentum still has to go somewhere. Bubble shields aggravate this, since bubble shields drastically increase the effective size of the vessels encased in them, and bigger vessels means bigger potential targets for collisions.

An obvious fix, one that does not require the bubble shield to be taken down entirely and thus render the vessel vulnerable to stuff like dust and radiation, is automatic frequency slipping (though that's almost certainly not the right term). Sensors may not be able to determine the shield frequency of a target from a distance, but a feedback loop built into the system controlling shield frequency should be able to provide the necessary data. The carrying vessel's own shield frequency is then changed immediately to cancel out the other vessel's shields where the two shields overlap.

So… if the transphasic torpedo has a small, short-duration shield generator onboard along with a feedback loop for frequency cancellation, then the torpedo gets to ignore the target's shields except for the bump caused by the inevitable lag in matching frequencies. Logically, regular photon torpedoes already have to be equipped with shield generators, since otherwise point defense fire or even a bucket full of ball bearings would be enough to form an effective screen against torpedoes. It's just a matter of getting the frequency cancellation circuitry to work.

That concept of frequency cancellation can also very neatly explain the unreasonable effectiveness of ramming attacks in Star Trek even though Starfleet shields are effective enough against Dyson sphere airlock doors trying to squash them, and to being rammed by primitive spacecraft. A vessel equipped with a frequency cancellation system can effectively ignore the target vessel's shields when ramming.

There are obvious countermeasures, of course, such as setting the target vessel's shields to automatically cancel out any attempts to locally cancel them out. That can be countered by better cancellation algorithms for the torpedo. And so forth.

Armor and layered shields are two more obvious responses.

[NecronLord]

Transphasic torpedoes are unable to penatrate imperial dura armour. They needed the armour over Voyager's launchers removed to fire, even though that comprimises the effectiveness of the armour, thus they cannot simply pass through Voyager's armour.

As puny borg weapons were able to take what 60% or < off that armour, it is nowhere near as dense as Imperial Dura Armour. Thus they'll do precisely jack.

[Ted C]

Setting myself up for this but I figure I will ask anyway.
I have never seen the episode but my understand is that one Interphasic torpedo blew up a borg cube. I am curious why or why not people think it would do the same thing to a star destroyer?

Here I go responding without reading everyone else's posts again.

Opening confession: I haven't actually seen VOY "Endgame".

That said, the very name of these weapons indicates that they somehow use phase and frequency alignment to defeat enemy defenses. We know that the Borg use phase and frequency adaptation to defend against phasers, so I would hypothesize that the transphasic torpedo is capable of altering its own phase alignment in flight. It may have some kind of sensor system that allows it to determine the phase alignment of a target's shields as it approaches so that it can adjust its own phase alignment to achieve a clean penetration.

Since Borg cubes are structurally unimpressive (low-density "pipe and ductwork" constructs with vast open spaces), it shouldn't take a huge amount of firepower to damage or destroy one without its shields. Indeed, it shouldn't be hard for a torpedo to penetrate one of these structures and explode inside, substantially increasing the damage potential. Borg cubes must also store fuel somewhere (possibly distributed throughout the ship), so they can easily contribute to their own destruction.

In any case, I don't see any reason to think that such weapons would be particularly effective against ships that use substantially different defense mechanisms. There's no reason to assume they would penetrate shields that don't display wave behavior, and there's no reason to think they would easily penetrate heavy armor.

[Alyeska]

I already explained that. Big fucking warheads.

Then why was Voyager able to refit to them so easily? It's not as if future-Janeway could just pop onto the ship, say "make your warheads more powerful", and they just say "wow, what a great idea, we never thought of that before! Let's do it!"

They obviously employ some sort of trick. Also note that after Voyager returned to Earth and brought home the secret of transphasic torpedoes, they did not start suddenly using them everywhere. Where are the uber-torpedoes in Nemesis (which occurs well after Voyager returned home, since Janeway is already an Admiral) that can annihilate a Borg cube with a couple of hits through raw firepower (presumably equal to dozens of ships firing at once, if STFC is to be taken as an example of Borg cube resilience), and would presumably wipe out Romulan ships effortlessly?

Mike, Voyager didn't have the torpedoes previously because they didn't have the technology. Janeway brought some really wierd shit with her. We know they didn't bypass the shields and we know they detonated imediately upon the hull of the borg ship. If they were phasing weapons they would imediately go right through. Furthermore we already know how useless standard torpedoes are against Borg ships even if they aren't stopped by the shields.

As to not seeing them in Nemesis. That is just another continuity problem in Trek. We SHOULD have seen them, but they became one of those one time wonder uber technologies. One must also wonder why we didn't see the Batmobile armor which we already know to be effective against more then just the Borg (Reference Janeway using it with a Shuttlecraft to deal with two Klingon Negh'Var class ships). Given Starfleets paranoia with time travel they likely locked it up.

[Alyeska]

Setting myself up for this but I figure I will ask anyway.
I have never seen the episode but my understand is that one Interphasic torpedo blew up a borg cube. I am curious why or why not people think it would do the same thing to a star destroyer?

Here I go responding without reading everyone else's posts again.

Opening confession: I haven't actually seen VOY "Endgame".

That said, the very name of these weapons indicates that they somehow use phase and frequency alignment to defeat enemy defenses. We know that the Borg use phase and frequency adaptation to defend against phasers, so I would hypothesize that the transphasic torpedo is capable of altering its own phase alignment in flight. It may have some kind of sensor system that allows it to determine the phase alignment of a target's shields as it approaches so that it can adjust its own phase alignment to achieve a clean penetration.

Since Borg cubes are structurally unimpressive (low-density "pipe and ductwork" constructs with vast open spaces), it shouldn't take a huge amount of firepower to damage or destroy one without its shields. Indeed, it shouldn't be hard for a torpedo to penetrate one of these structures and explode inside, substantially increasing the damage potential. Borg cubes must also store fuel somewhere (possibly distributed throughout the ship), so they can easily contribute to their own destruction.

In any case, I don't see any reason to think that such weapons would be particularly effective against ships that use substantially different defense mechanisms. There's no reason to assume they would penetrate shields that don't display wave behavior, and there's no reason to think they would easily penetrate heavy armor.

Even if that were the case it would put TTs at more firepower then the combined action we saw in First Contact. They were able to start a chain reaction to destroy a Cube while TTs utterly blew one apart in a single hit.

[NecronLord]

As to not seeing them in Nemesis. That is just another continuity problem in Trek. We SHOULD have seen them, but they became one of those one time wonder uber technologies. One must also wonder why we didn't see the Batmobile armor which we already know to be effective against more then just the Borg (Reference Janeway using it with a Shuttlecraft to deal with two Klingon Negh'Var class ships). Given Starfleets paranoia with time travel they likely locked it up.

Isn't there a temporal investigations department that could come back from the future to make that tech dissapear?

[Darth Wong]

Mike, Voyager didn't have the torpedoes previously because they didn't have the technology. Janeway brought some really wierd shit with her. We know they didn't bypass the shields and we know they detonated imediately upon the hull of the borg ship. If they were phasing weapons they would imediately go right through. Furthermore we already know how useless standard torpedoes are against Borg ships even if they aren't stopped by the shields.

You're assuming that Borg ships don't have some kind of hull-surface defense system they can use. Who knows how they chose to "adapt" to Federation weapons? Yes, the torps explode against the surface. But no, they are not huge yield. If they were, the damage would be immediate and massive, rather than a delayed explosion of the Borg cube.

As to not seeing them in Nemesis. That is just another continuity problem in Trek. We SHOULD have seen them, but they became one of those one time wonder uber technologies.

Nemesis is canon; you can't just dismiss it as a continuity error when a workable explanation exists: the transphasic torpedoes employ a trick, and are ONLY useful against the Borg.

One must also wonder why we didn't see the Batmobile armor which we already know to be effective against more then just the Borg (Reference Janeway using it with a Shuttlecraft to deal with two Klingon Negh'Var class ships). Given Starfleets paranoia with time travel they likely locked it up.

Why? What harm could it have to their present timeline once it already exists and has been used? And just how effective was this armour against Klingon ships? We've seen shuttles taken repeated hits before, without the armour, and it's hardly unreasonable to show her using it even if it's of only marginal effectiveness against anyone but Borg, since you tend to throw up whatever defenses you can find when people are attacking you.

[Darth Wong]

Even if that were the case it would put TTs at more firepower then the combined action we saw in First Contact. They were able to start a chain reaction to destroy a Cube while TTs utterly blew one apart in a single hit.

I saw a clear incident when the TT's caused a similar chain reaction, because the cube explosion was delayed. The cube explosion was quicker in other incidents, but that could be a function of how effectively it causes an internal failure. If it's simply sheer yield, then there is no reason why it would EVER be delayed, even for a single incident.

[Alyeska]

You're assuming that Borg ships don't have some kind of hull-surface defense system they can use. Who knows how they chose to "adapt" to Federation weapons? Yes, the torps explode against the surface. But no, they are not huge yield. If they were, the damage would be immediate and massive, rather than a delayed explosion of the Borg cube.

Actualy I am assuming the Borg DO have such a defense. That is why we wouldn't see any shield interaction. We never do to begin with.

Nemesis is canon; you can't just dismiss it as a continuity error when a workable explanation exists: the transphasic torpedoes employ a trick, and are ONLY useful against the Borg.

Of which there isn't much proof. Even if the torpedoes bypassed the shields they are still freaking powerful in order to smash a Cube in a single hit.

Why? What harm could it have to their present timeline once it already exists and has been used? And just how effective was this armour against Klingon ships? We've seen shuttles taken repeated hits before, without the armour, and it's hardly unreasonable to show her using it even if it's of only marginal effectiveness against anyone but Borg, since you tend to throw up whatever defenses you can find when people are attacking you.

Its very damned clear that this Armor is what saved Janeway from being killed by the two Klingons. That it prevented a shuttle from being destroyed by two of late DS9s most powerful ships is actualy very impressive. We know the technology exists and that even a lone ship can produce it. We know its useful against more then one type of enemy. We know Starfleet is keeping it under lock and key rather then using it.

[Col. Crackpot]

Even if that were the case it would put TTs at more firepower then the combined action we saw in First Contact. They were able to start a chain reaction to destroy a Cube while TTs utterly blew one apart in a single hit.

now exactly how much raw explosive force would it take to blow a Borg ship apart like that? granted, much of the explosion was the core of the borg ship detonating, but from one fucking shot!

[Alyeska]

Even if that were the case it would put TTs at more firepower then the combined action we saw in First Contact. They were able to start a chain reaction to destroy a Cube while TTs utterly blew one apart in a single hit.

I saw a clear incident when the TT's caused a similar chain reaction, because the cube explosion was delayed. The cube explosion was quicker in other incidents, but that could be a function of how effectively it causes an internal failure. If it's simply sheer yield, then there is no reason why it would EVER be delayed, even for a single incident.

Cause enough firepower on the outside in the wrong section and the ship won't blow up imediately. We saw these weapons impact the hull and not the inside. Even then these weapons would still have more firepower then what we saw in First Contact. That means more powerful then something like 20+ photon torpedoes, a shitload of phasers, and 3 Quantum Torpedoes. Had the Enterprise been armed with these in Nemesis the Scimitar would have run home crying for its mommy.

[Ted C]

Even if that were the case it would put TTs at more firepower then the combined action we saw in First Contact. They were able to start a chain reaction to destroy a Cube while TTs utterly blew one apart in a single hit.

Even if they do carry a larger payload, there's no way to tell just how much larger it might be.

Here's an experiment, though. Open up Mike's Asteroid Destruction Calculator. A 3km Borg cube would have a volume of 2.7E+10 cubic meters, so enter a value of 3720 in the Diameter field of the form.

Even if the cube were solid nickel-iron (which is ridiculously high density, given what we've see of their interiors), it would only take a 250 MT explosion to destroy one in a single shot.

To estimate what would be required if the cube were 90% empty space, adjust the diameter to 1727 meters, resulting in a volume of 2.7E+9 cubic meters. Destroying that would require less than 25 megatons.

That's actually a pretty substantial upgrade, since assorted TNG incidents suggest yields of hundreds of kilotons, not tens of megatons, but it still isn't enough to threaten an Imperial Star Destroyer.

[Darth Wong]

Cause enough firepower on the outside in the wrong section and the ship won't blow up imediately.

Enough firepower to blow apart the entire ship with a single hit (as you say) and it wouldn't matter where you hit it; there should be MASSIVE damage immediately, like half the cube blown away, even for a sub-optimal hit.

We saw these weapons impact the hull and not the inside. Even then these weapons would still have more firepower then what we saw in First Contact. That means more powerful then something like 20+ photon torpedoes, a shitload of phasers, and 3 Quantum Torpedoes.

Or they emit some kind of funky Trek-radiation which does particular damage against the internal systems of Borg cubes.

Had the Enterprise been armed with these in Nemesis the Scimitar would have run home crying for its mommy.

Begs the question of why they weren't armed with them, then. Arguing that the Feds would suppress the technology for fear of polluting their timeline is silly, since the technology already exists and has been used in their timeline, and has no effect on their past, only their future. Besides, this is the same Federation that possess biogenic weapons and grants authority to a mere captain (Sisko) to use them at his personal disgression without repercussions.

[Alyeska]

Enough firepower to blow apart the entire ship with a single hit (as you say) and it wouldn't matter where you hit it; there should be MASSIVE damage immediately, like half the cube blown away, even for a sub-optimal hit.

Not necessarily. So the weapon might not be enough to utterly smash a cube on its own. But look at what happened in First Contact without doing much more then a 50 meter hole in the ship. At the range we were watching its entirely possible the TTs could have smacked the Cube and caused a larger hole then the Cube detonated from internal damage. A nice directed weapon would put a whole lot of the force into the ship rather then outward. Nicely vaporizing all internal components.

Begs the question of why they weren't armed with them, then. Arguing that the Feds would suppress the technology for fear of polluting their timeline is silly, since the technology already exists and has been used in their timeline, and has no effect on their past, only their future. Besides, this is the same Federation that possess biogenic weapons and grants authority to a mere captain (Sisko) to use them at his personal disgression without repercussions.

We know that they exist and we know that the armor is useful against more then just the Borg. Therefor they are being supressed. Basicaly it means Starfleet is inept, something you well ought to understand.

[Lord of the Farce]

We know they didn't bypass the shields and we know they detonated imediately upon the hull of the borg ship. If they were phasing weapons they would imediately go right through. Furthermore we already know how useless standard torpedoes are against Borg ships even if they aren't stopped by the shields.

Well the name (both "trans-" and "-phasic") implies something passing through. Since we know that they don't go right through the hull like phase cloaking, and was stopped by the Transwarp Hub's shields (but not Borg Cubes'), the most likely explaination (IMHO, considering their apparent absense in Nemesis) is that the Transwarp Hub had sufficiently different shields which resisted the transphasic trick.

[Stravo]

Begs the question of why they weren't armed with them, then. Arguing that the Feds would suppress the technology for fear of polluting their timeline is silly, since the technology already exists and has been used in their timeline, and has no effect on their past, only their future. Besides, this is the same Federation that possess biogenic weapons and grants authority to a mere captain (Sisko) to use them at his personal disgression without repercussions.

We know that they exist and we know that the armor is useful against more then just the Borg. Therefor they are being supressed. Basicaly it means Starfleet is inept, something you well ought to understand.

I think we can offer a better explanation than SF is inept. In Starcrossed they are reluctant to use this technology for fear of polluting the timestream. Remember how paranoid the Temporal affairs office is in Trial and Tribulations. They refuse to do anything which might pollute the timestream, even if it might mean a significant advantage to the Federation.

But make no mistake about it, SF is inept in many ways not just this one, I just thought that there were some ready explanations for the lack of transphasic torpedoes than just "They're stewpid."