Darth Maul vs. Vader?

YT300000 · Post by **YT300000** » 2003-06-03 08:36pm

Darth Pounder wrote:Exactly, yet we know that a Jedi with the Force as his ally is capable of WAY more than simple TK and saber throws.

That's my point. If Vader does use his powers in the duel with Maul (lots of Force speed, jumps and pushes, possibly even a bit of choking), he win emerge victorious. If he doesn't, he will lose.

Death from the Sea · Post by **Death from the Sea** » 2003-06-04 11:30am

Defiant wrote:
Death from the Sea wrote:If you are talking Vader from RotJ, then I have to vote for Maul. In RotJ Vader is old and getting weak, and he was beaten by Luke. Luke had some training but from what we see onscreen he was no whiz with a lighsaber and neither was Vader in RotJ. From what we saw in TPM Maul was IMHO pretty damn good with a saber, he held off two Jedi killing a Master. The fact that Maul was killed by Kenobi is irrelevant, Maul got cocky after killing the more experienced Jedi and let his guard down a bit. Hell even the old Kenobi had sucky sabre skills as seen in ANH. Old age tends affect people that way. Dooku was just good regardless, imagine him in his prime. And Yoda being old and fighting... well he went right back to his walking cane afterward so his fighting was definitely force enhanced.
Now if you take a younger Vader then I could believe him defeating Maul. Just not the RotJ Vader.
There's nothing in RotJ to indicate that Vader was old and weak, at least physically. Luke was the only one who could defeat Vader. Not because of superior skill (Luke was a novice at best), but because he was Vader's son. Its clear that Vader held back during every confrontation. Even when he cut off Luke's hand in tESB, he was restraining himself, because he wanted his son ALIVE.

Um, how about the fact that he was having trouble breathing even before he was hit by the Emperors force lightning and that he had trouble standing back up after his fight with Luke. Even if Vader was holding back during the fight, he still could have force pushed Luke away when Vader fell down. Looke at the time line from Vader had to be in his late 50's or so in RotJ there is no way his endurance could match Maul's.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-06-04 11:39am

Vader splatters Maul over a wall IMO.

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2003-06-05 06:31am

Death from the Sea wrote: Um, how about the fact that he was having trouble breathing even before he was hit by the Emperors force lightning and that he had trouble standing back up after his fight with Luke. Even if Vader was holding back during the fight, he still could have force pushed Luke away when Vader fell down. Looke at the time line from Vader had to be in his late 50's or so in RotJ there is no way his endurance could match Maul's.

Vader was unsteady on his feet breifly after he had his hand chopped and he was breathing quicker after Luke jumped up onto the gantry.
But you are forgetting the entire purpose of the exercize in the throne room. It was not to kill like but turn him, Vader was not going to kill him and even admitted that he did not want to in the novel. The ROTJ fight is not a accurate demonstation of Vaders abilities with the force as can be attested by watching AOTC. You also forget that Vader killed of a the remaining Jedi in Episode 3, who were much more experoienced in the force than Luke.
Also age has little to do with it, Look a Yoda in AOTC, he was some 977 years old.

Boba Fett · Post by **Boba Fett** » 2003-06-05 07:22am

NecronLord wrote:Vader splatters Maul over a wall IMO.

You mean the Wall of Ignorance?

Cæsar Laurentius · Post by **Cæsar Laurentius** » 2003-06-07 01:44am

Death from the Sea wrote: Um, how about the fact that he was having trouble breathing even before he was hit by the Emperors force lightning and that he had trouble standing back up after his fight with Luke. Even if Vader was holding back during the fight, he still could have force pushed Luke away when Vader fell down. Looke at the time line from Vader had to be in his late 50's or so in RotJ there is no way his endurance could match Maul's.

Consider Count Dooku, a human at the ripe old age of eighty. Certainly he did not have any speed problems.

Why would Vader, a superior Sith, experience problems in this regard?

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2003-06-07 01:50am

Cæsar Laurentius wrote:Consider Count Dooku, a human at the ripe old age of eighty. Certainly he did not have any speed problems.

Why would Vader, a superior Sith, experience problems in this regard?

Welcome newbie to StarDestroyer.net. Your emergency exits are located on your top right hand and left hand corners of the screen. Please read the announcements and follow the guide lines. Watch out for the pokers, and please enjoy your stay.

Thank you.

Death from the Sea · Post by **Death from the Sea** » 2003-06-09 12:54am

Cæsar Laurentius wrote:
Death from the Sea wrote: Um, how about the fact that he was having trouble breathing even before he was hit by the Emperors force lightning and that he had trouble standing back up after his fight with Luke. Even if Vader was holding back during the fight, he still could have force pushed Luke away when Vader fell down. Looke at the time line from Vader had to be in his late 50's or so in RotJ there is no way his endurance could match Maul's.
Consider Count Dooku, a human at the ripe old age of eighty. Certainly he did not have any speed problems.

Why would Vader, a superior Sith, experience problems in this regard?

Dooku was/is(?) a better swordsman than Vader in his old age, besides if Vader was not feeling his age then he would not have even been able to lose to Luke, he would have been able to stand his ground and not kill Luke at the same time. Face it Vader was not in his prime in RotJ. And think if Dooku was that good when he was eighty(if he was eighty) then imagine how good he was in his prime.
And how do you know Dooku was eighty? when was that stated?

Shroom Man 777 · Post by **Shroom Man 777** » 2003-06-09 01:19am

What happened to Vader?

I mean WHY THE HELL DID HE GET PWNED BY LUKE?

Other people who are older than Vader but still masters of the force were still able to perform better.....

What went wrong with Vader in ROTJ?!

And who would win?
Dooku in his prime or Vader in his prime?

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2003-06-09 04:16am

Death from the Sea wrote:
Cæsar Laurentius wrote:
Death from the Sea wrote: Um, how about the fact that he was having trouble breathing even before he was hit by the Emperors force lightning and that he had trouble standing back up after his fight with Luke. Even if Vader was holding back during the fight, he still could have force pushed Luke away when Vader fell down. Looke at the time line from Vader had to be in his late 50's or so in RotJ there is no way his endurance could match Maul's.
Consider Count Dooku, a human at the ripe old age of eighty. Certainly he did not have any speed problems.

Why would Vader, a superior Sith, experience problems in this regard?
Dooku was/is(?) a better swordsman than Vader in his old age, besides if Vader was not feeling his age then he would not have even been able to lose to Luke, he would have been able to stand his ground and not kill Luke at the same time. Face it Vader was not in his prime in RotJ. And think if Dooku was that good when he was eighty(if he was eighty) then imagine how good he was in his prime.
snip

Grrr, how many times must the obvious be stated, Vader and the emperor goaded luke into doing what he did at the end of ROTJ, they were not trying to kill him. When he would not be turned then the emperor tried to kill Luke. As to the capabilities of aged Jedi, need I mention Yoda's age at the time of AOTC?

Drooling Iguana · Post by **Drooling Iguana** » 2003-06-09 04:33am

Defiant wrote:
Death from the Sea wrote:If you are talking Vader from RotJ, then I have to vote for Maul. In RotJ Vader is old and getting weak, and he was beaten by Luke. Luke had some training but from what we see onscreen he was no whiz with a lighsaber and neither was Vader in RotJ. From what we saw in TPM Maul was IMHO pretty damn good with a saber, he held off two Jedi killing a Master. The fact that Maul was killed by Kenobi is irrelevant, Maul got cocky after killing the more experienced Jedi and let his guard down a bit. Hell even the old Kenobi had sucky sabre skills as seen in ANH. Old age tends affect people that way. Dooku was just good regardless, imagine him in his prime. And Yoda being old and fighting... well he went right back to his walking cane afterward so his fighting was definitely force enhanced.
Now if you take a younger Vader then I could believe him defeating Maul. Just not the RotJ Vader.
There's nothing in RotJ to indicate that Vader was old and weak, at least physically. Luke was the only one who could defeat Vader. Not because of superior skill (Luke was a novice at best), but because he was Vader's son. Its clear that Vader held back during every confrontation. Even when he cut off Luke's hand in tESB, he was restraining himself, because he wanted his son ALIVE.

Even in ANH, before he even knew who Luke was, he had him in his sights but hesitated, allowing Han to sneak up behind him in the Falcon.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2003-06-09 03:17pm

IN ANH Vader didn't vape skywalker because he was suprised at the strength of the force the pilot had. In this brief hesitation Solo came in and hit the TIE Advanced a glancing blow damaging it's engines. By the time of ESB Vader has discovered that the gifted pilot is his own son and is now on a mission to recruit him. Why would he then kill the man he wants to be his apprentice.

MrAnderson · Post by **MrAnderson** » 2003-06-09 09:26pm

I always figured that Luke's big advantage was the force itself. How long had it been since a Jedi truly drew upon the light side of the force?

It is a huge assumption but I am betting that Luke found a huge pool of the light side waiting for him to tap.

This allowed to severly limit Vader who was then even further hampered by the fact that he was not to defeat Luke but delay and frustrate Luke until was enticed into drawing from the dark side t try and win.

Once this happened Vader and the Emperor would have won.

What the Emperor did not consider was that one lucky stroke of Luke's (into the ahnd of Vader) would allow him to win without falling fully to the dark side. Seeing that hand showed him how his actions were leading him to the edge of the same abyss that father had fallen into.

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2003-06-09 09:39pm

MrAnderson wrote:I always figured that Luke's big advantage was the force itself. How long had it been since a Jedi truly drew upon the light side of the force?

It is a huge assumption but I am betting that Luke found a huge pool of the light side waiting for him to tap.

snip.

I dont think the force works like that. Its not like a savings account that can grow with interest. both good and evil exist in equel quantities, what counts is how you use it.

Death from the Sea · Post by **Death from the Sea** » 2003-06-10 02:16am

Stuart Mackey wrote:Grrr, how many times must the obvious be stated, Vader and the emperor goaded luke into doing what he did at the end of ROTJ, they were not trying to kill him. When he would not be turned then the emperor tried to kill Luke. As to the capabilities of aged Jedi, need I mention Yoda's age at the time of AOTC?

Ok first off we don't know how old Yoda's species can live to be, Yoda's species could very well live to an average age of 900 so his age is irrelevant. While it might be said he showed some impressive moves in ATOC it was only temporary, as soon as the fight was over he went right back to his walking stick. And you say Vader was goading Luke with Vader intending for Luke to cut his hand off? or do you think Vader wanted Luke to take his place by the Emperors side(killing Vader)? Vader wanted Luke to join him not the Emperor so they could rule as father and son.

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2003-06-10 03:33am

Death from the Sea wrote:
Stuart Mackey wrote:Grrr, how many times must the obvious be stated, Vader and the emperor goaded luke into doing what he did at the end of ROTJ, they were not trying to kill him. When he would not be turned then the emperor tried to kill Luke. As to the capabilities of aged Jedi, need I mention Yoda's age at the time of AOTC?
Ok first off we don't know how old Yoda's species can live to be, Yoda's species could very well live to an average age of 900 so his age is irrelevant. While it might be said he showed some impressive moves in ATOC it was only temporary, as soon as the fight was over he went right back to his walking stick.

He dies at 900 so if that is his species average age then what he did is very remarcable when you consider what a similar aged human can do. This shows that age does not, nessarily, have that much effect on users ability to use the force

And you say Vader was goading Luke with Vader intending for Luke to cut his hand off? or do you think Vader wanted Luke to take his place by the Emperors side(killing Vader)? Vader wanted Luke to join him not the Emperor so they could rule as father and son.

They both had there agenda's, so what?, this is well known. What it show's is that the throne room fight in ROTJ is no mesure of Vaders ability to use the force, given what we know of what the force can do.

MrAnderson · Post by **MrAnderson** » 2003-06-10 08:31am

Stuart Mackey wrote:
MrAnderson wrote:I always figured that Luke's big advantage was the force itself. How long had it been since a Jedi truly drew upon the light side of the force?

It is a huge assumption but I am betting that Luke found a huge pool of the light side waiting for him to tap.

snip.
I dont think the force works like that. Its not like a savings account that can grow with interest. both good and evil exist in equel quantities, what counts is how you use it.

Not directly but we do know by the whole idea of the Chosen One that the Force does take some sort of action over time.

During that battle with Vader the force may have granted Luke additional power since it turned out that he was the balancing element that was needed since his father had failed at that task.

One other idea. Yoda knew what Luke was going up against. He knew he would be fighting Vader and possibly the Emperor. It would make sense that the training that Yoda gave Luke was specialized to defeat Darth Vader.

Think of Luke as like a Jedi Big Blue, the IBM supercomputer that was designed to play chess and was discovered was not made to be a great chess player but was made to be a great chess player against one particular foe. Luke was optimized in his training to fight Vader.